WoT Season 2 Episode 2: Strangers and Friends

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/7/2023 at 3:01 AM, Chivalry said:

 

Before Episode 3, I would not have considered Moraine at risk. Now, I'm not so sure. Perhaps Rosamund Pike, who actually has had a nice career, does not want to be tied down to a multi-season show (with pauses of 2 years between seasons).

 

But book Rand was much more attached (at the hip) to Moraine ...TV Rand, not so much (so far). Would he still feel guilt?

 

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Was he? Morraine is not in TGH really at all, she basically leaves Rand to get on with it, in Dragon Reborn he spends the whole book trying to get away from her and then book 4 onwards he makes her submit to him in order to let her teach him. He doesn’t really “miss her” until after the thing happens. In a lot of ways it is a definitive toxic relationship with her trying everything she can to get close enough to teach him and him refusing to let her anywhere near him unless she jumps through a load of hoops. 

[Agitel]

She doesn't swear to him until FoH, if I remember right.

 

The issue is he doesn't trust her at all, and he doesn't want to be manipulated. It's very soon after he becomes open to trusting her again that she's taken away.

[DreadLord31]

  On 9/5/2023 at 5:59 AM, DigificWriter said:

In a book, you can exclude a character from parts of the story and put them "out of sight, out of mind" for a while; in a visual medium, though, you have to remind audiences that the character is still around unless you definitively kill them off.

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So you think TvThom isn’t coming back?

You’d be wrong… 

 

Id also bet you buttons to bitcoin that Ishy will die (and come back) at some point. Both Reincarnation & characters that “die” and then “comeback” is very WoT. And the writers have proven that they absolutely love the fake-out death ploy! 😉 

[DigificWriter]

Alexandre Willaume Is a Recurring Cast member, which means that it's expected for him to drop in and out of the show as necessary.

 

Rosamund Pike is both a Main Cast member and the Series Lead, and it is rare for a TV series - even one based on pre-existing source material - to sideline a Main Cast member, especially one with Lead billing, by putting them "out of sight, out of mind" for any significant length of time unless forced to do so by external circumstances.

 

Maintaining Rosamund Pike as the Series Lead but having her drop off our screens for seasons at a time solely because her character's role in the novels is diminished and she disappears off the page for a significant chunk of the story is ridiculously unlikely.

Edited September 7, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Guire]

  On 9/7/2023 at 1:59 PM, DigificWriter said:

Alexandre Willaume Is a Recurring Cast member, which means that it's expected for him to drop in and out of the show as necessary.

 

Rosamund Pike is both a Main Cast member and the Series Lead, and it is rare for a TV series - even one based on pre-existing source material - to sideline a Main Cast member, especially one with Lead billing, by putting them "out of sight, out of mind" for any significant length of time unless forced to do so by external circumstances.

 

Maintaining Rosamund Pike as the Series Lead but having her drop off our screens for seasons at a time solely because her character's role in the novels is diminished and she disappears off the page for a significant chunk of the story is ridiculously unlikely.

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I am not versed at all in TV production.  Any chance Pike takes on larger role on creative or behind camera while appearing less on screen?  

[DigificWriter]

  On 9/7/2023 at 2:18 PM, Guire said:

I am not versed at all in TV production.  Any chance Pike takes on larger role on creative or behind camera while appearing less on screen?  

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Possibly, but I think that it's far more likely that they would just craft the story so that she maintains an onscreen role even though her character was absent from the novels.

Edited September 7, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/7/2023 at 2:55 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Possibly, but I think that it's far more likely that they would just craft the story so that she maintains an onscreen role even though her character was absent from the novels.

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I don't know why your so definitive that an actor wont be ok with being written out for a period of time. You might be right but Producer or not there is precedence of this, I am pretty sure walking dead wrote out a key character only to then bring them back. By the time she will be written out the show should be being carried by the rest of the main cast so it wont need her name anymore to draw in viewers and when seh took on the role she knew exactly what she was signing up to. She herself has said she loves the books so knew where the characters story was going, but also, as has been mentioned while she is off the show Amazon will be continuing to pay her to do the audio books so that might be the contract deal. 

[DigificWriter]

The equivalent to what you're proposing would be writing off Sarah Michelle Gellar's Buffy Summers for the entirety of Season 6 of her titular television series before suddenly bringing her back for Season 7 

 

It would confuse casual viewers and give them a reason to stop watching the show.

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/7/2023 at 4:22 PM, DigificWriter said:

The equivalent to what you're proposing would be writing off Sarah Michelle Gellar's Buffy Summers for the entirety of Season 6 of her titular television series before suddenly bringing her back for Season 7 

 

It would confuse casual viewers and give them a reason to stop watching the show.

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It really wouldn't, in terms of her role in the story It would be writing off Anthony Head, Moraine is not the star of the show, in season 1 she was more of a main character, much as she is in some ways in the books, but it is an ensemble piece much in the same way as GOT which happily killed off big name actors. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 9/7/2023 at 1:59 PM, DigificWriter said:

Maintaining Rosamund Pike as the Series Lead but having her drop off our screens for seasons at a time solely because her character's role in the novels is diminished and she disappears off the page for a significant chunk of the story is ridiculously unlikely.

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I'm not so sure about that. Pike seems like a pretty intentional person. As a producer on the show, she can continue to have her finger in the pot (so to speak) no matter whether she is on screen or off. I can absolutely see her planning another project to coincide with, say, S4 and having her character come back midway through S5. She loses little in such a plan.

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/7/2023 at 5:55 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I'm not so sure about that. Pike seems like a pretty intentional person. As a producer on the show, she can continue to have her finger in the pot (so to speak) no matter whether she is on screen or off. I can absolutely see her planning another project to coincide with, say, S4 and having her character come back midway through S5. She loses little in such a plan.

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As an actor it is also a great opportunity because the character goes through such a massive change in terms of her own outlook when she returns. So Pike gets to play the same character in a totally different way. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 9/7/2023 at 5:54 PM, Scarloc99 said:

It really wouldn't, in terms of her role in the story It would be writing off Anthony Head, 

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  On 9/7/2023 at 5:54 PM, Scarloc99 said:

 Moraine is not the star of the show, in season 1 she was more of a main character, much as she is in some ways in the books, but it is an ensemble piece much in the same way as GOT which happily killed off big name actors.

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Both of these comments are objectively incorrect.

 

Rafe and his team of writers expressly structured the WoT TV adaptation in order to center Moiraine as the central narrator (usurping the latter role from Rand despite the overall story not being hers), similarly to how the 2019 Swamp Thing television series was built around Crystal Reed's Abby Arcane although the story it told was that of the titular Swamp Thing (Alec Holland).

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/8/2023 at 11:33 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

 

Both of these comments are objectively incorrect.

 

Rafe and his team of writers expressly structured the WoT TV adaptation in order to center Moiraine as the central narrator (usurping the latter role from Rand despite the overall story not being hers), similarly to how the 2019 Swamp Thing television series was built around Crystal Reed's Abby Arcane although the story it told was that of the titular Swamp Thing (Alec Holland).

 

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No they built season 1 like that in order to keep the mystique about who the dragon reborn is. Rafe has said that the series will be an ensemble piece with each main character having a key POV story. Season 2 so far is in no way being told with Morraine as the narrator, she is just one of several storylines all being told in parrellel. 
 

Writing her out would not impact the show in the slightest, GOT showed you can remove key POV characters and not affect things and Morraine will soon become more of a side character to the main storylines of the 6 main hero’s. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 9/9/2023 at 12:05 AM, Scarloc99 said:

No they built season 1 like that in order to keep the mystique about who the dragon reborn is. Rafe has said that the series will be an ensemble piece with each main character having a key POV story. Season 2 so far is in no way being told with Morraine as the narrator, she is just one of several storylines all being told in parrellel. 
 

Writing her out would not impact the show in the slightest, GOT showed you can remove key POV characters and not affect things and Morraine will soon become more of a side character to the main storylines of the 6 main hero’s. 

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We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

[Irvyne]

  On 9/2/2023 at 12:20 AM, DigificWriter said:

Those examples told completely original stories based on classics, while completely changing the names of the characters, place and title. Entirely different situations. Imagine if West Side Story had actually been called William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet.

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[Elder_Haman]

  On 9/8/2023 at 11:33 PM, DigificWriter said:

Rafe and his team of writers expressly structured the WoT TV adaptation in order to center Moiraine as the central narrator

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No. The writers expressly structured season one for Moiraine to be the central figure. Her story is just one of several that are ongoing in S2 and she has not received substantially more screen time than the others (though I'll admit I haven't put a clock on it).

 

And I still have the very strong feeling that Rosamund Pike is the type of person who would be happy to take a break for a season or two to try out other projects and then return to finish off the show. If they choose to go a different route with her, it will probably be because they aren't sure what to do with

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the Finn

or whether that story works on screen.

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(I love everything about the Tower of Genji, so I definitely hope it stays in.)

 

[Meskell]

  On 9/2/2023 at 12:20 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

Following this logic, you must think that West Side Story, 10 Things I Hate About You, Kiss Me Kate, Ex Machina, and The Lion King, all of which are films that wildly and diversely diverge from the William Shakespeare plays from which they were adapted, are also fanfiction, right?

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Are any of those titled the play they are based on? No?

They are adaptations of a play done in their own way, not just picking taming of the shrew, calling it taming of the shrewd but having Neo run in and drop kick some bishes. 
 

What people want is for a show named literally after the book to be a relatively close adaptation of the book, hitting key points. Otherwise just use WOT as a foundation, similar to what you have mentioned above, and you can then add your own spin with no moaning. 

[Sunkiss]

  On 9/7/2023 at 3:01 AM, Chivalry said:

 

Before Episode 3, I would not have considered Moraine at risk. Now, I'm not so sure. Perhaps Rosamund Pike, who actually has had a nice career, does not want to be tied down to a multi-season show (with pauses of 2 years between seasons).

 

But book Rand was much more attached (at the hip) to Moraine ...TV Rand, not so much (so far). Would he still feel guilt?

 

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I myself am not a book reader and I really like Moriane's character. I rather watch her than any of the twin river kids. I don't know if I would continue to watch the show if her character is permanently killed off.  Rand is cute but that's about all, nyv is too headstrong and I don't  like her with Lan so that will probably do it for me. Egawne is OK at times but the constant wanting gets to me. Maybe she grows out of it. Perrin is just OK. Maybe the old Matt I would have kept watching but this one isn't cute and dry. Sad but I seem to like the bad guys better than the good..lol

[Elder_Haman]

  On 9/20/2023 at 12:48 AM, Sunkiss said:

I myself am not a book reader and I really like Moriane's character. I rather watch her than any of the twin river kids. I don't know if I would continue to watch the show if her character is permanently killed off.  Rand is cute but that's about all, nyv is too headstrong and I don't  like her with Lan so that will probably do it for me. Egawne is OK at times but the constant wanting gets to me. Maybe she grows out of it. Perrin is just OK. Maybe the old Matt I would have kept watching but this one isn't cute and dry. Sad but I seem to like the bad guys better than the good..lol

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For some reason, I think you’re meant to feel this way. They are all really just beginning their respective heroic journeys. Seems like the writers have really made a point of leaning into the characters’ weaknesses and vulnerabilities. 
 

Now we’re meant to see them grow. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/20/2023 at 1:08 AM, Elder_Haman said:

For some reason, I think you’re meant to feel this way. They are all really just beginning their respective heroic journeys. Seems like the writers have really made a point of leaning into the characters’ weaknesses and vulnerabilities. 
 

Now we’re meant to see them grow. 

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Which is good TV writing, I also am looking at the characters getting most screen time now and think that is an indicator of the actors that might be leaving sooner then later. Ishy is getting some great scenes to chew through, and we know if the books are followed the actor will need to be replaced by a far younger man at some point. Moiraine in season 1 was the central focus and in season 2 has had a good character arc, which all suggests the audience s being led to care about her so they care about the big choice she needs to make. The main characters on the other hand, we have 8 seasons to watch them develop and grow and have great moments as there characters move from being the hangers on they are at the start of the books, to the centre that the story swirls around at the end. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 9/20/2023 at 8:43 AM, Scarloc99 said:

 we know if the books are followed the actor will need to be replaced by a far younger man at some point. 

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In my experience, visual mediums tend to avoid this. It is too confusing for viewers, gives issues with actors etc. Just like Selene looks exactly like Lanfear, I would imagine that most characters will continue to look the same. 

 

Of course it could be that being reborn by the Great Lord will be so significant that they will do it, with the suspense of who are these characters, but my guess is no. Perhaps a Quantum Leap moment of looking in the mirror, and saying "Oh, boy"

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but I would really expect that when the audience knows that Moridin is Ishamael, that he will look like Ishamael to the audience,

with perhaps an interim actor while it is unknown, and then he will just use the Mirrors of Mist. I'd say it is just one of the rules of TV, that characters need to be instantly recognisable. Of course, we'll have to WAFO.

Edited September 20, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/20/2023 at 10:40 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

In my experience, visual mediums tend to avoid this. It is too confusing for viewers, gives issues with actors etc. Just like Selene looks exactly like Lanfear, I would imagine that most characters will continue to look the same. 

 

Of course it could be that being reborn by the Great Lord will be so significant that they will do it, with the suspense of who are these characters, but my guess is no. Perhaps a Quantum Leap moment of looking in the mirror, and saying "Oh, boy" but I would really expect that when the audience knows that Moridin is Ishamael, that he will look like Ishamael to the audience, with perhaps an interim actor while it is unknown, and then he will just use the Mirrors of Mist. I'd say it is just one of the rules of TV, that characters need to be instantly recognisable. Of course, we'll have to WAFO.

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The swap of Ishy to Moridin is a key moment in the books, and the reveal it is Ishy is held off, therefore you can easily introduce a new character as nae Blis and have little nods that this is the same bad guy as the first 2 seasons. I don't think an audience that has been invested for 5 seasons (moridin probably would come in season 5) will be confused. it is very different to a simple change of face, Moridin is a new character in the books he behaves in a very different way. Also the soul swap is key if they stick to the end of the books and go for the happy ending BS gave us.  But we will need to WAFO to see which route they take for this. 

[Vartija]

  On 9/20/2023 at 12:48 AM, Sunkiss said:

I myself am not a book reader and I really like Moriane's character. I rather watch her than any of the twin river kids. I don't know if I would continue to watch the show if her character is permanently killed off.  Rand is cute but that's about all, nyv is too headstrong and I don't  like her with Lan so that will probably do it for me. Egawne is OK at times but the constant wanting gets to me. Maybe she grows out of it. Perrin is just OK. Maybe the old Matt I would have kept watching but this one isn't cute and dry. Sad but I seem to like the bad guys better than the good..lol

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I've run into this sentiment regarding the Two Rivers 5 elsewhere as well and I think it's a bit of failure by the show. And I feel it myself as well, if I didn't have book knowledge about the characters, I don't know if I'd really care about them that much either based on how they act in the show. I think the show leaned too much into relationship drama early in season 1 which resulted in confrontational scenes. Everyone was arguing, then making up, arguing again etc. Rand for one came off really ungrateful towards Moiraine in episodes 1 & 2. Egwene called Rand a bastard, Rand called Mat a prick etc. Even the humour was kind of mean spirited; in episode 3 when Mat is clearly freezing Rand makes a joke of it instead of sharing his coat. That's so far off from how they looked after each other in the book when they had to fend for themselves after getting separated in Shadar Logoth. It just came off really hostile and argumentative all the time.   

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 9/20/2023 at 1:40 PM, Vartija said:

I've run into this sentiment regarding the Two Rivers 5 elsewhere as well and I think it's a bit of failure by the show. And I feel it myself as well, if I didn't have book knowledge about the characters, I don't know if I'd really care about them that much either based on how they act in the show. I think the show leaned too much into relationship drama early in season 1 which resulted in confrontational scenes. Everyone was arguing, then making up, arguing again etc. Rand for one came off really ungrateful towards Moiraine in episodes 1 & 2. Egwene called Rand a bastard, Rand called Mat a prick etc. Even the humour was kind of mean spirited; in episode 3 when Mat is clearly freezing Rand makes a joke of it instead of sharing his coat. That's so far off from how they looked after each other in the book when they had to fend for themselves after getting separated in Shadar Logoth. It just came off really hostile and argumentative all the time.   

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I speculated on this when it aired, but I think Rands odd behaviour here may be due to early channelling issues, most likely due to helping Bela.

 

Matt echoed my thoughts of Rands little bit chilly joke, he laughs at Matt when he gets robbed and is a dick to him throughout those scenes.

[notpropaganda73]

Rand vehemently defends Mat in episode 7 though. I'm repeating myself from other threads but I think that's going to be key to Mat's overall arc - how Rand sees him and defends him in that moment is who Mat really is. And he'll eventually show that.