Why not follow the books more closely?

[Elglin]

33 minutes ago, Rsmithboeing said:

just like it wasn't necessary to create intimate situations between people who didn't have them

People love watching a well-filmed boink. In the words of Avenue Q, "the internet is really really great FOR PORN". Even a not-so-well filmed boink gets some points for the effort. Were those scenes necessary? They weren't. Do I like them? Nah. Can I make my peace with their existence? Well, yeah.

 

36 minutes ago, Rsmithboeing said:

A lot of money could have been saved by not adding unnecessary material.

You are mostly preaching to the choir here. Does that material belong? Mostly it doesn't, although there were scenes making enough sense to warrant the screen time. Can I make my peace with its existence? Well... a bottle of beer and a bag of popcorn are known to go a long way to help with that.

39 minutes ago, Rsmithboeing said:

For the idiotic ball gag thing.

I reserve my judgment till I see it in action. Maybe they come with a reasonable enough justification. Maybe, even likely - not. Okay, another bag of popcorn on its way.

40 minutes ago, Rsmithboeing said:

Perrin killing a wife he didn't have.... really how much was the scene.

A really lame scene and plot in a long list of lame scenes in the show. I stopped counting and bothering mid-way through the season.

 

42 minutes ago, Rsmithboeing said:

It isn't the Wheel of Time. If GoT could do it reasonably well what is the excuse here.

First, I wonder what's the weed that HBO scriptwriters smoke but I can see why they don't sell it to other studios - that's a clear competitive edge. In my opinion, Rafe is honestly trying to do his job. He's failing at it, but, well, I have my share of bad days at the office.

There is zero excuse that the plot of the show is of fanfiction quality - and the people writing fanfics do this for sheer pleasure in their spare time, not as a paid job. However, at some point even before S1, I made my peace with the fact that this - absolutely, um, crappy - adaptation is the only one we are getting of our beloved book series. It's a darn shame, really, but it is what it is. I could go all day criticizing the show and another week nitpicking at it - but what would be the point?

 

51 minutes ago, Rsmithboeing said:

To anyone who doesn't praise the show.

Nah. There are quite a few people in this forum who don't think highly of the show, myself included. However, degenerating the forum into a flood of hate speech - mostly if not all justly deserved - is just not something worth its time. It's way more interesting to discuss the aspects of the show worth discussing. It's not like the people aren't seeing the elephant in the room. They've just agreed it's there and are discussing its color, ear size and shape and the length of the tusks.

[Rsmithboeing]

See good points and, well written unlike what I've dealt with so far. However they were in their 15-16 year range and, "even though" I think they could have used a wig or 2 to keep the character appearance as it should have been I didn't dislike most of season 1 cast. 

But, the mention of Perrin's wife was only one of the things I still believe wasn't necessary. 

The fear and, shock in addition to their families wanting them to run would have kept with the books and,  explained what was needed. 

 

I'm sorry when chatting with someone who can be truly objective and, make logical points. However, the books could have been followed and, the audience wouldn't have been lost if the scenes were done well.

 

I can't see them fixing the damage done in season 1, in season 2.

 

And, it could have been an excellent series.

 

But, Raff or whatever his name is lies. He couldn't possibly be a "huge" fan of The Wheel of Time, yet put out that show.

 

I truly had huge hopes for the show originally and, thought it could go for 14 seasons "before seeing season 1."

 

I was shocked they got a second season out of it.

I hoped chatting here that I could add to the voices who feel likewise and, that changes could be made and, hopefully save it.

 

I know it's too late though. 

[Elglin]

8 minutes ago, Rsmithboeing said:

I can't see them fixing the damage done in season 1, in season 2.

I would suggest WAFO, just don't hold your breath. OTOH, the butterfly effect is hard to reverse - things that made sense in the books stop making sense in the show just because you don't have the right characters in the right place at the right time - the "teleports" largely happen to fix that. On the other - Witcher managed to remain sensibly close to the original in S3 despite being way off the charts in S2. It didn't help the show much, but, well, at least they tried.

11 minutes ago, Rsmithboeing said:

And, it could have been an excellent series.

Should have been. But it ain't. Darn shame.

 

12 minutes ago, Rsmithboeing said:

I was shocked they got a second season out of it.

I was... and I wasn't. To me as a fan, it was horrendously bad. However, my esteemed spouse who doesn't care for RJ (she's got lots of other redeeming qualities, not in the least being able to put up with myself) said that she kind of liked it despite its mediocrity. So it could sell well, and it seems that it did, so why not make another season of something making a profit?

 

I earn my living in tech, and I've seen a lot of technically bad decisions that were made because they made sense from the financial perspective. Hell, I made some myself. And I expect to see a lot more till I retire. That's the imperfection of life, I guess.

[Rsmithboeing]

I know saying this is too late but, if it'd been my project I would have started off with showing Lewis Therin and, the 100 companions and, the end of sealing off the bore.

 

A backlash from the dark one that corrupts the male half of the power. End opening sequence.

Then the into explaining how the Dragon would be reborn ect...

Instead "I'm guessing" maybe Tom's cousin being stilled and, the Dragon being either male or female and, it was mens fault the power was corrupted.

 

Then village intro and, attack. 

Follow the book. Keep the kids the same age as they should have been. 

No changes because, it wasn't needed. 

Traveling would skip some things.

 

 

And, so on.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Rsmithboeing

[Rsmithboeing]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

 

This actually has a surprising basis in the books, despite the general controversy over the subject of fridging.

 

In tSR when Perrin returns to the TR he mentions he might have married Layla had he stayed.  Well considering in the show they stayed until they were 20 rather than 18ish things just took their natural course.

 

Of course just because it has a logical basis in the books does not mean it was handled the best nor mute the complaints of fridging.  But him having a wife and killing her does alot of work for a short amount of time.  And considering the amount they had to cut down on episode one I think it did its job.

 

35 minutes ago, Elglin said:

I would suggest WAFO, just don't hold your breath. OTOH, the butterfly effect is hard to reverse - things that made sense in the books stop making sense in the show just because you don't have the right characters in the right place at the right time - the "teleports" largely happen to fix that. On the other - Witcher managed to remain sensibly close to the original in S3 despite being way off the charts in S2. It didn't help the show much, but, well, at least they tried.

Should have been. But it ain't. Darn shame.

 

I was... and I wasn't. To me as a fan, it was horrendously bad. However, my esteemed spouse who doesn't care for RJ (she's got lots of other redeeming qualities, not in the least being able to put up with myself) said that she kind of liked it despite its mediocrity. So it could sell well, and it seems that it did, so why not make another season of something making a profit?

 

I earn my living in tech, and I've seen a lot of technically bad decisions that were made because they made sense from the financial perspective. Hell, I made some myself. And I expect to see a lot more till I retire. That's the imperfection of 

55 minutes ago, Elglin said:

People love watching a well-filmed boink. In the words of Avenue Q, "the internet is really really great FOR PORN". Even a not-so-well filmed boink gets some points for the effort. Were those scenes necessary? They weren't. Do I like them? Nah. Can I make my peace with their existence? Well, yeah.

Should add yes too much Porn in GoT. LOL

No argument here.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Rsmithboeing

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

1 hour ago, Rsmithboeing said:

Should add yes too much Porn in GoT. LOL

No argument here.

Remember the creation of the character Roz in GOT who wasn’t in the books? It seems like they added her to the show solely for the purpose of sex 😂. 
 

ps, I hope you will stick around the forum for more than 2 days and give this community a chance…not everyone agrees but we all agree on one thing, WOT is important and beloved enough to us to take time and focus and put it into interacting here to discuss it with other super fans. If some posts come across offensive to you, well sh** happens, but consider the likelihood that the poster has as much conviction and love for the wot as you do (just a different perspective) or they wouldn’t bother to express their viewpoints or even bother to come on a forum at all. You don’t have to like or agree with everyone and not everyone is going to like or agree with you, but we’re all here for the same reason which is a love for and/or extraordinary connection to the wot. I’m sorry if I’m coming across icky or preachy, I genuinely don’t mean to criticize or condescend or offend, I just appreciate the opportunity to hear as many perspectives and opinions as possible from the fans. I’m not trying to agree or disagree, just enjoy the chance to discover what other fans perceive and interpret from the material from their own unique and individual perspective, so I would hate to miss out on one. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress

[DigificWriter]

@Lightfriendsocialmistress I get wanting to be civil, but when a poster comes in here blatantly and baselessly attacking the show and its creators and accusing them - and, by proxy, anyone who isn't outraged by their creative choices - of lying about their love for and familiarity with the novels, it's really hard not to balk at said poster and clap back at their unreasonable and hyperbolic vitriol.

 

And I say this as someone who doesn't even like the novels.

 

Dealing with someone who very clearly doesn't actually want to engage in good-faith discussion and is instead just looking for people to validate their unreasonable and irrational hatred of the WoT television adaptation is not something that I personally have any interest in doing because it's not constructive and accomplishes nothing.

[SinisterDeath]

7 hours ago, Rsmithboeing said:

Oh I'm well aware of that. But, there's no point arguing with either of you guy/gals because, neither of you have a clue about the books. You let that slip arguing for ball gags.

Where did I say I enjoyed the look of the mouth pieces?

 

7 hours ago, Rsmithboeing said:

Enjoy I thought this was an actual forum for people who knew the books.

 

Take care

It is, we probably know a lot more about the books then you think we do. 

Note the forum you are in.

Wheel of Time TV show. That is an Adaptation. Adaptations always change things. Even Lord of the Rings cut a lot of content and book LotR book purists were unhappy about the movies when they came out until everyone else enjoyed them.

 

You are entirely free to talk about the books over at the Wheel of Time Books Discussion forum, you might find yourself happier discussing the books, over the TV show. 

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

5 hours ago, Rsmithboeing said:

See good points and, well written unlike what I've dealt with so far. However they were in their 15-16 year range and, "even though" I think they could have used a wig or 2 to keep the character appearance as it should have been I didn't dislike most of season 1 cast. 

Rand was born in 978. 

Eye of the world takes place in 998. 

That makes Rand as old as 20, as young as 19.

Egwene was born in 981, which puts her as old as 17, as young as 16.

When it comes to the show, they just set the main 4 as born in 998, so it's not nearly as yucky for Rand to be diddling a 16 year old as a 20 year old.

 

5 hours ago, Rsmithboeing said:

I hoped chatting here that I could add to the voices who feel likewise and, that changes could be made and, hopefully save it.

Why?

If you don't like something, turn the channel. Touch some grass.

 

I didn't care for the Shannara Chronicles TV show. The casting and acting was WAY to MTV even for an MTV show. I didn't spend my days on Shannara Chronicles forums/discord whining about how bad that show was when it was actively on TV.

 

I changed the channel.

[Scarloc99]

On 8/12/2023 at 5:22 AM, Rsmithboeing said:

I completely understand the need to reduce the content due to the limitations on budget. I can't understand however, why the books weren't followed closer. It's really difficult for me to watch season 1 again before season 2 is released because, so many alterations were made to the amazingly well written books.

 

Will season 2 head in the current direction of changing what was written or will it re-adjust and, get back to the roots of what was witten by Robert Jordan and, Brandon Sanderson, (who picked up and finished Jordan's works extremely well)?

Hmmm I mean in my opinion Sanderson did a passable job, but the quality of his 3 books is significantly less then the series as a whole, and he outright just changes a number of characters and the way the narrative flows. 

And this I think is the thing, no one has RJ's voice, anyone writing anything for WOT be it the follow on books, or a TV show is always going to struggle to meet expectations. I am happy BS finished the series, and he didn't quite do a end of Game of Thrones massacre, but, there are many who would argue the extremely well point. having re read the last 3 books now a number of times they grate on me more and more each time. 

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, Rsmithboeing said:

 

It isn't the Wheel of Time. If GoT could do it reasonably well what is the excuse here. 

 

But GoT didn't do it reasonably well, GoT started strong and then became abjectly horrific by the end, to the point that pretty much the entire cast is now happy to say they hated the story of the final season. 

GoT also used Sex randomly for no purpose. those scenes where not in the books but they felt it necessary to have naked women lying around while a key bit of story was happening just because. 

Anyone wanting WOT to be like GOT is saying they want a show that starts strong and ends horrifically. Was season 1 perfect, no, are there clear reasons and excuses for that, yes. One of which is that The Eye of the World is not a Wheel of time book, it is a generic fantasy book in which Robert Jordan was finding his voice and trying to make something commercially sellable. Robert Jordan does not find is voice as an author, does not find his characters real voices and does not really get into the stride of telling his story until book 3 or I would argue book 4. 

The things you have said you don't like are so insignificant that saying they equate to not being the WOT makes no sense. Damme wearing a ball gag in no way changes the mechanics of a Damme, who they are, what they are, their impact on the world. If you sit back and look at the broad strokes then the story of the WOT is being told. Nothing about the main Lore of the Dragon Reborn and the turning of the wheel has changed. Changes that have been made are to the edges, things that ultimately make no real difference to telling the key story of how Rand gets to be at the last battle and beats the dark lord. Tell me a single change that impacts that single story? Much like the changes Peter Jackson made to Lord of the Rings did nothing to impact the story of Frodo getting to mount doom for Golumn so he could destroy the ring. The only major change I was unhappy with is that the big reveal that the age of legends is our own technological future was given away so early on. For me revealing that before Rhuidean took away part of the excitement of book 4.  

 

If you think you can do better then as I have said to many people, script out an 8 episode season of the eye of the world, making sure that you also include everything that audiences will need to know for the future, foreshadowing key plot points that when we read the books we had no idea would be important. Make sure you introduce the world and the key aspects of it, keep your episodes as distinct storylines and keep it all to a tight budget. Oh and then go and try and make that TV show in the middle of a global pandemic and have one of your key actors leave right at the end of filming. 

[Elder_Haman]

7 hours ago, Rsmithboeing said:

I've been on this site for 2 days and, seen you and, the other one bully and, act insulting. To anyone who doesn't praise the show.

I’m genuinely sorry if you feel bullied or insulted - that is not my intent. My intent is to stimulate discussion. 
 

There is a difference between saying, “I really hate the look of the ball gags because of X, Y and Z” and saying “the ball gags are objectively terrible and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.” The first not only allows for discussion, it encourages it. The second approach only encourages flame wars. 
 

I think you’ll find a wide variety of opinions about the show here. 
 

In fact, I have personally been critical of the show, especially the writing which I feel was not on par with the rest of the production. There are several active users here - @Elglin is one - who are even more critical.

 

It’s not your opinion of the show that we ultimately care about as mods, it’s your ability to engage in constructive discussion and dialogue. Have your opinion! Share it! Just be prepared to defend and discuss it with people who disagree. 

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, Rsmithboeing said:

I know saying this is too late but, if it'd been my project I would have started off with showing Lewis Therin and, the 100 companions and, the end of sealing off the bore.

 

A backlash from the dark one that corrupts the male half of the power. End opening sequence.

Then the into explaining how the Dragon would be reborn ect...

Instead "I'm guessing" maybe Tom's cousin being stilled and, the Dragon being either male or female and, it was mens fault the power was corrupted.

 

Then village intro and, attack. 

Follow the book. Keep the kids the same age as they should have been. 

No changes because, it wasn't needed. 

Traveling would skip some things.

 

 

And, so on.

 

That would have been an awful cold open, you are writing the TV show from the perspective of viewers having read the books, you give that open, with no concept, no ideas and you instantly lose your non book loving audience because it is going to take you 4-5 seasons to be able to explain it all. 

When writing a TV show like this you have to explain everything to the viewer, and this is done either through exposition, or through the characters experiencing the world in front of the viewers and learning those rules. You would make an awful adaptation that would be confused, fractured and jump from scene to scene with no logic and no sense. You can't make a page to page adaptation of a book to screen. Watch Harry potter, there are some pretty big changes made there from the books, and those books are tiny compared to WoT. One of the key things I likes about WOT was that until book 4 I didn't realise that it had gone through a very very high tech phase. I thought it was akin to other fantasy settings, medieval with magic and had always been that way. 

Book 1 was adapted in the best way it could be in terms of flow, now, you might disagree with some of the dialogue and scripting (it wasn't ideal) with the way some characters origins where tweaked, but, all season 1 has to do is set up where the characters are emotionally at the start so the viewer can see the change. It has to define who all the characters are and start showing you the wider world and, it has to set the expectation that there is going to be sex and adult themes in this series. You can't be having a PG series until season 4 when suddenly the Aiel are walking around naked, key characters are being tied to beds and raped, husbands are spanking wives, oh and the main character has sex with 3 different women and then forms a poly relationship. You also can't have a TV show about a bunch of 17/18 year olds who go off around the world having sexual relations with loads of different people. Which, in essence is what WOT s about. It always threw me that an 18yo such as Rand can get so much action out in the world, and Mat, a girl on his knee at every inn. Sometimes change makes a lot of sense.

[Elglin]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Book 1 was adapted in the best way it could be in terms of flow

I probably wouldn't say "best", but definitely "at least reasonably good". I liked the cold open as it was, for all I like the LTT-Ishamael scene that starts the book.

 

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

the Aiel are walking around naked, key characters are being tied to beds and raped, husbands are spanking wives, oh and the main character has sex with 3 different women and then forms a poly relationship.

Which actually can be toned down almost to the level we've seen in S1. Requires careful thought and planning and a few old cinema tricks, but definitely doable.

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

You also can't have a TV show about a bunch of 17/18 year olds who go off around the world having sexual relations with loads of different people.

I'm way out into giggles territory here, but Eurotrip shows you can make at least a movie out of this premise.

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

It always threw me that an 18yo such as Rand can get so much action out in the world, and Mat, a girl on his knee at every inn.

Okay, without naming names, Rand gets a home run with a total of three females, and possibly some three other females were trying to get to some base of their own volition. I discount, say, a certain Selande because she was more or less ordered to, and possibly a couple of others for the same reason. A popular high schooler can get through the same number on a summer vacation. And let's say that Rand is all any Marty Stu could dream of, not just a popular jock.

Mat is another matter entirely. On-page, IIRC, he gets hot and flustered with three females. Sure, he flirts in any inn and steals kisses, but with how many of those tavern girls did he actually get a home run? As per anyone's head canon, anywhere between all of them and none of them. Besides, he's handsome, he's a ladies' man, he has coin and a certain aura about him - so he's probably the most interesting male for miles around. That's possibly not enough for a home run, but first or second base seems both safe and fun. If you recall the details of his love life preceding that "girl in every tavern" phase, the lad probably had PTSD for Pete's sake.

[expat]

4 hours ago, Elglin said:

I probably wouldn't say "best", but definitely "at least reasonably good". I liked the cold open as it was, for all I like the LTT-Ishamael scene that starts the book.

 

Which actually can be toned down almost to the level we've seen in S1. Requires careful thought and planning and a few old cinema tricks, but definitely doable.

I'm way out into giggles territory here, but Eurotrip shows you can make at least a movie out of this premise.

Okay, without naming names, Rand gets a home run with a total of three females, and possibly some three other females were trying to get to some base of their own volition. I discount, say, a certain Selande because she was more or less ordered to, and possibly a couple of others for the same reason. A popular high schooler can get through the same number on a summer vacation. And let's say that Rand is all any Marty Stu could dream of, not just a popular jock.

Mat is another matter entirely. On-page, IIRC, he gets hot and flustered with three females. Sure, he flirts in any inn and steals kisses, but with how many of those tavern girls did he actually get a home run? As per anyone's head canon, anywhere between all of them and none of them. Besides, he's handsome, he's a ladies' man, he has coin and a certain aura about him - so he's probably the most interesting male for miles around. That's possibly not enough for a home run, but first or second base seems both safe and fun. If you recall the details of his love life preceding that "girl in every tavern" phase, the lad probably had PTSD for Pete's sake.

I agree with you.  The cold opening hit the perfect note by addressing head on the elephant in the room - men who channel go mad [and you are relying on a male channeler to save the world].

 

I expect that the level of sex and nudity will remain the same throughout the series.  They will do the planning and tricks you mentioned.  It's just as important to stay at the established level of nudity and sex once established as it is to define it early in the series.

[Samt]

If we're talking about ways to start, I think it would have been interesting to start with some New Spring content.  It seems they really wanted to let Moiraine be the main character early on, include more White Tower early on, and introduce more about the Warder bond.  All of those things actually happen automatically if you just start with New Spring and you would also just be following the books.  Of course, this would change how the entire season develops and would mean that different tension points would be required, but I think it's interesting to consider.  

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

22 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

@Lightfriendsocialmistress I get wanting to be civil, but when a poster comes in here blatantly and baselessly attacking the show and its creators and accusing them - and, by proxy, anyone who isn't outraged by their creative choices - of lying about their love for and familiarity with the novels, it's really hard not to balk at said poster and clap back at their unreasonable and hyperbolic vitriol.

 

And I say this as someone who doesn't even like the novels.

 

Dealing with someone who very clearly doesn't actually want to engage in good-faith discussion and is instead just looking for people to validate their unreasonable and irrational hatred of the WoT television adaptation is not something that I personally have any interest in doing because it's not constructive and accomplishes nothing.

I hear ya. I agree with you. It’s futile in most cases to attempt to be civil and rational with people who come in hot and make it clear from the start that they don’t want to engage in that sort of thing. I have a glitch which occasionally compels me to try anyway. 🤷‍♀️

thanks for your post and reality check 

[DigificWriter]

Steering this away from posters' motivations and behavior and back towards actual discussion topics, I mentioned elsewhere that the costume designer's inclusion of pacifier gags for the damane - regardless of how 'silly' or out-of-place they might seem to some people - is going to directly impact things that are going to be happening with Egwene and increase the emotional impact both on the audience and on her as a character, which is very much a good thing.

 

For all that some people can quibble - and are quibbling- with the creative choices that Rafe and his entire production team have made and are making, everything that they're doing is purposeful and geared towards making the best possible adaptation of WoT that they can and delivering something that serves both general audiences and the existing WoT fanbase (even though not all of the latter will accept their efforts in that regard).

[Elglin]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Steering this away from posters' motivations and behavior and back towards actual discussion topics, I mentioned elsewhere that the costume designer's inclusion of pacifier gags for the damane - regardless of how 'silly' or out-of-place they might seem to some people - is going to directly impact things that are going to be happening with Egwene and increase the emotional impact both on the audience and on her as a character, which is very much a good thing.

Increasing the emotional impact on Egwene or the audience? She has issues for the next few books.

 

My biggest problem with the pacifier gags as they are is that they are so impractical they're anti-practical. Try biting on an average-sized plum and walk around your home for a few minutes that way. You'll be yearning to chew it down. Kid pacifiers and dog muzzles allow to keep the mouth and lips shut or almost shut, the construct that was in the trailer - doesn't.

Not being able to close your mouth/lips for a prolonged period of time brings active discomfort. When you are in active discomfort, you are not as good at whatever you are doing. A damane is a tool and a weapon. People are not above neglecting their tools and weapons, but I've yet to see people who actively damage them for no reason.

Hence it breaks the suspension of disbelief for me.

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

For all that some people can quibble - and are quibbling- with the creative choices that Rafe and his entire production team have made and are making, everything that they're doing is purposeful and geared towards making the best possible adaptation of WoT that they can and delivering something that serves both general audiences and the existing WoT fanbase (even though not all of the latter will accept their efforts in that regard).

It is not quibbling to discuss whether or not someone likes or dislikes specific creative choices Rafe and his team have made.  People feel how they feel for specific reasons: it was like/unlike the book, the scene was/wasn't necessary, the writing was good/bad, the CGI was great/awful...

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, Elglin said:

My biggest problem with the pacifier gags as they are is that they are so impractical they're anti-practical. Try biting on an average-sized plum and walk around your home for a few minutes that way. You'll be yearning to chew it down. Kid pacifiers and dog muzzles allow to keep the mouth and lips shut or almost shut, the construct that was in the trailer - doesn't.

Not being able to close your mouth/lips for a prolonged period of time brings active discomfort. When you are in active discomfort, you are not as good at whatever you are doing. A damane is a tool and a weapon. People are not above neglecting their tools and weapons, but I've yet to see people who actively damage them for no reason.

 

Prompted by this comment, I went looking for historical context, and, based on what i found, I think the point of the pacifier gags as designed is in fact to cause damage to the damane as a form of perpetual abuse and as a show of dominance and control.

[Elglin]

29 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Prompted by this comment, I went looking for historical context, and, based on what i found, I think the point of the pacifier gags as designed is in fact to cause damage to the damane as a form of perpetual abuse and as a show of dominance and control.

Could you share a link? I don't doubt your words, I'm just curious; as a practicing DM, I'm always a little on the search for curiosities.

Perpetual abuse and dominance and control are fine. However, do you perpetually abuse your guard dog? Your hunting dog? Your horse, be it riding or draught? You surely don't dilly-dally with them and you give them the occasional kick. But perpetually abusing them is just a bad investment.

Same with damane - they are valuable property, at the very least on par with a really good horse. A single pacifier used by a slightly kooky sul'dam is fine - but as a standard fare it's too much.

[Guire]

You also can't have a TV show about a bunch of 17/18 year olds who go off around the world having sexual relations with loads of different people. Which, in essence is what WOT s about. It always threw me that an 18yo such as Rand can get so much action out in the world, and Mat, a girl on his knee at every inn. Sometimes change makes a lot of sense.

 

You were obviously not a soldier. 🙂

[DigificWriter]

37 minutes ago, Elglin said:

do you perpetually abuse your guard dog? Your hunting dog? Your horse, be it riding or draught? You surely don't dilly-dally with them and you give them the occasional kick. But perpetually abusing them is just a bad investment.

Same with damane - they are valuable property, at the very least on par with a really good horse. A single pacifier used by a slightly kooky sul'dam is fine - but as a standard fare it's too much.

 

I think this is the wrong way to think about damane. They're not valued pets or tools (IMO); they're slaves treated as less-than-human.

 

Forcing the damane to wear pacifier gags that could potentially cause prolonged and long-term physical damage is no different than the many historical examples that can be easily found of masters and overseers beating and raping slaves both as punishment and as a demonstration of dominance and control.

[Guire]

14 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I think this is the wrong way to think about damane. They're not valued pets or tools (IMO); they're slaves treated as less-than-human.

 

Forcing the damane to wear pacifier gags that could potentially cause prolonged and long-term physical damage is no different than the many historical examples that can be easily found of masters and overseers beating and raping slaves both as punishment and as a demonstration of dominance and control.

I am about 90 % sure the gags are a direct call back to scolds bridles and iron gags used on women and slaves in 1600 and 1700s.  Not a choice I would have made because I would like damane to speak regularly.  I think it is an effective shortcut to show brutality of Seanchan Empire and its strict hierchal system.  May only be used when damane are on duty to convey power of the empire to public.  The empire is the Power but also protecting citizens from these dangerous women.  So in barracks or at rest. They may shed them.  Also may not actually involve a gag.  Maybe just cover mouth almost like a slave veil.