Where is Demandred?

[Leafburner]

I know we've discussed this on the old boards, but I can't remember the differing theories regarding where Demandred is. I know many still believe he is Taim (I don't know why...) But for those who do not, here is an opportunity to regail us with your thoughts on how and in what capacity Demandred will reveal himself to the world prior to the Last Battle.

 

I personally believe he is in Shara. I think he has been massing together an army of chanellers. Now he could have been making his across the deserted Aiel Waste on foot, in preparation to walk his army over the Dragonwall, but I think it is more likely that he will travel the distance and have a fresh army ready to add some real power to the army of the Dark.

 

Other thoughts?

[Shai-tan]

I personally believe he is closer to Rand... I dont have my books on me :( in my old place still so no evidence.

[Guest Majsju]

My favourite theory regarding Demandred has always been that he is not posing as anyone at all. That he instead is doing what Sammael described as being his favoured method, using proxies. This would mean Demandred himself is working off-stage, lurking in the shadows and only now and then goes out to pull some strings. This works very well with what we know about his personality, Demandred is extremely proud, and having to pose as someone other than himself for an extended period of time might be to much to bear.

 

Now, IF he actually is posing as someone...Well, a couple of books ago I was thinking mostly about the Whitecloaks. Demandred being a general, what better place to be than with an army completely acting on it's own, without need for orders from any king. That idea kinda went out the window.

 

But look at the map, and draw mental circles around the areas controlled (now or earlier) by Forsaken. In the west there's Graendal in Arad Domon, and Semirhage in Tarabon and Altara. The southern coastline there was Sammael in Illian and Be'lal in Tear. The central continent is more or less dominated by Andor, first controlled by Rahvin, later Osan'gar settled there. And of course Tar Valon, with Mesaana. Which leaves Murandy squeezed inbetween, and Cairhien hanging loose to the east. Throw in Aiel, Asmo did a pretty darn good job at making sure they would never unite when he gave Couladin the tattoos.

 

Now, apart from Cairhien and Murandy, what is missing here? Right, the north. The Borderlands. The strongest military force on the continent, the one military force directly aimed at the Shadow. But we haven't seen any Forsaken there. What he have seen lately thoguh is a move that smells Forsaken a long way, moving 200k soldiers away from the most important border in the world...

 

The Borderlands are nations where everything circles around the military. Naturally, a place where anyone must be expecting to stand face to face with a trolloc at any given time must be like that. And as already mentioned, Demandred was, and is still a general.

 

I find it odd that the Borderlands would be completely free from Forsdaken control. And of those not connected with a nation or group already, I think we dare to assume that Moridin, Moghedien and Cyndane are not there. We've seen them all move around the world a bit too much, and all have been busy as well, Moghedien as prisoner, Moridin and Cyndane with being dead.

 

Which leaves Demandred as the only credible candidate for direct involvment with the Borderlands.

[Shai-tan]

Hmm then there is the Shara..... I like the idea that he is lurking and not posing that sounds fairly logical.

[Luckers]

Perhaps, but that would require some fairly quick writting to set it up in the last book. Additionally there is the statement from Graendal that the Sharans were irrelevant until after the return. And finally Sammael assertion that he knew demandred was in the south.

[Shai-tan]

Yeah thats why I figured he was closer to Rand....

[Guest Majsju]

Sammael did not say Demandred was in the south, he said events in the south had Demandred written all over them. And directly after that he added that Demandred always had liked using proxies.

[Luckers]

True enough. Even so, it makes Shara seem unlikely.

[Artemis]

Has anybody thought that maybe Demandred could be in the Blight gathering the DO´s forces ??? Although i dont belive this myself (for the simple reason that this is a boring explanation and that RJ like to shock us) it could explain why 2 things are happening:

1-Demandred hate (and i mean hates) LTT (who has just been reencarnated as Rand).If i were Demandred i would have gone after him the moment i knew where he was UNLESS i had specific orders not to from the DO.

2-Why are all the Trollocs gone from the Blight when the Blight hasnt retreated for 3000 years???Kinda suspicious if you ask me and the only reason i can think of to explain this is a massive army being gathered...And who is the DO´s best general now (after Sammaels death) yup you got it Demandy!

[Kadere]

Man! On the last boards I had this AWESOME post about where I thought Demandred was, and all this eviedence that could support my theory. I wish I could still get to those and copy that post for this one.

 

Anyway, the theory I had posted was that Demandred was posing as either King Roedran himself, or one of his close advisors in Lugard.

 

From that position it seemed that Demandred could be involved with Messana's plans in the Tower, and close to Ebou Dar to work with Semirhage. King Roedran is also massing an army in Lugard, with the help of Mat's Band of the Red Hand, which I took as somehow using Rand's military against him. The fact that Lugard would put him so close to Caemlyn also allows for him to be behind the attacks on Bashere's camp to get the seals in Crossroads of Twilight.

 

I had a whole bunch of quotes before, but I'm a little too lazy to dig them out now. I don't buy that Demandred is with the Shara's because it seems useless to me to be with them, they've done nothing so far, and to build them up in the last book is just stupid. I also like the Borderlands idea, but I don't think any of the evidence points in that direction besides "OH WOULDN'T IT BE SO COOL!!!" and RJ never goes for that.

[Ilyena]

I have to say, Lugard doesn't seem Demandred's Place. I've gotta go witht the theory that he's pulling strings all over the place. Let's not forget that SOMEBODY posed as Sammel (who RJ said was taken out by Maishadar :?: ) and is ordering Trollocs after Rand. Let the Lord of Chaos rule?

 

PS. What about the Land of Madmen? Why would RJ create another continent if he was never going to use it in any novel?

[alCal]

I'm pretty sure that Demandred is somewhere in the normal Randland. RJ has said that there won't be any more scenes from Seanchan and that we won't see anything of Shara, and to suddenly drag the Land of Madmen into the final book seems unlikely.

So we are left with the Borderlands or their armies, Lugard, the Blight and somewhere in the south. And of course all over the place pulling strings. Possibly something more.

I think that the Borderland-idea seems logical. However, I have always belived him to be in the south because of Sammaels POV. I don't know where though.

But I do know that RJ likes to shock us, so we shoul perhaps look for something shocking?

[Leafburner]

I was just wondering if we have been introduced to King Roedran at any point. I can't remember.

[Siswaiaman]

An ashaman disguise?

Taims too old, but one of his newly found henchmen?

[alCal]

I can't imagine Demandred putting aside his pride and pretending to be just a simple henchman.

[Kadere]

We've never met King Roedran, we've only heard about him second hand. We're first introduced to his existence in Fire of Heaven when Suian and company make it to Lugard on their way to the Aes Sedai. We later hear about him getting the same message as Mattin Stepaneos from Elida in Lord of Chaos and her response of "Press them!" because Roedran and the other's haven't decided yet what to do about whatever it was. Later in Path of Daggers he asks for the Bands hand in raising an army, and in Knife of Dreams he's done building the army. It's also interesting to note that up until about half way through Knife of Dreams, Lugard is where Mat is headed. If you look at all the evidence, it's possible their's something there. I'm not 100% on it, but I think it's interesting.

[Luckers]

Yeah i don't see there being another forsaken posing as another asha'man. The King Roedan idea sounds pretty goot to me.

[Graendals favourite]

I kind of like the Murandy idea too. And as with the other Forsaken, their practically ruling a country doesn't stop them from doing other things as well.

[Luckers]

Especially if he's doing it in the background like Semirhage did.

[Graendals favourite]

Yes, and I remember even Roedran was referred to as especially lazy or what was the word, so that gives ample opportunity to do other things as well.

[Luckers]

And also it implies something about his newfound ability to mobilize all of murandy. And there are rumours that Murandy is a very strong country when they stand united, like maybe they have a large population or something, so it would make sense for Demandred to target them.

[crash]

Demandred

 

 

General

Timeline

Strengths and Talents

Relationships with other Characters

Quotes

Theories

Misc. Information

 

 

 

 

General

 

Demandred, one of the thirteen original Forsaken, was born some 400 years before the War of Shadow with the name Barid Bel Medar.

 

Barid Bel Medar was tall, with dark hair and a hawk-nose. He was considered to be handsome, though not as much so as was Lews Therin Telamon, the man that Barid Bel hated most. (Guide).

 

In order to fully understand the man who would one day become Demandred, it is necessary to first understand his overwhelming hatred of Lews Therin Telamon. Barid Bel's life seemed to made up of 'almost' and 'not quite'. He wasn't as tall, nor as handsome as Lews Therin. He wasn't as talented or skilled as Lews Therin. Everything that Barid Bel could do Lews Therin could do better.

 

Demandred was an acclaimed man, one of the most acclaimed of his age. He held several public offices, and is known to have written books on a wide variety of subjects during the Age of Legends, for which he received both critical and popular acclaim.

 

When the War of Power began, Barid Bel started out opposing the Shadow. For the first three years of the war, he was a high-ranking general within the army, due to his strategic vision and tactical flair. The only thing that kept him from surpassing Lews Therin in this area was that he was a gambler, and put too much stock in taking risks.

 

When Lews Therin was promoted above him, Barid Bel was, of course, disgusted. Angry, he once went so far as to say that, with Lews Therin in charge, the Shadow had a better chance of winning. It was Lews Therin's promotion that finally pushed him over the edge. He traveled to Shayol Ghul to pledge his soul to the Dark One, and took the name Demandred. (The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 3.)

 

After turning, Demandred turned his skills as a military general against the forces that he had previously fought along-side with. He turned out to be as good a general for the Shadow as he had been against it. (Guide) He also acted as governor over conquered territory several times, but always he returned to the battlefield; he wanted to be the one to personally kill Lews Therin Telamon.

 

During the War of Power, Demandred committed many heinous crimes. One of the most notorious incidents was capturing two cities and feeding them to the Trollocs. His reason? He believed that they had slighted him before the war. (Lord of Chaos, Chapter 2.) To him, this was a completely suitable fate for these people. Demandred believed that anyone who slighted him should be punished.

 

Like all of the other Forsaken, Demandred holds high hopes of being named Nae'blis. Though that hope must have been dimmed somewhat upon Moridin's ascension, he no doubt still hopes that he may one day achieve this station.

 

 

Timeline

 

-Barid Bel was born some 400 years before the War of Power. (Guide)

 

-Three years after the beginning of the War of Power, Barid Bel turns to the Shadow. (Lord of Chaos, Prologue.)

 

-Demandred and the other Forsaken are sealed into the Bore at Shayol Ghul. (???)

 

-Demandred escapes from the Bore. (Time Unknown.)

 

-Demandred meets Shaidar Haran at Shayol Ghul and speaks to the Dark One, who tempts him with the title of Nae'blis and gives him his orders. (Lord of Chaos, Prologue.)

 

-Demandred meets with Mesaana, Graendal and Semirhage and passes on his orders from the Dark Lord. (Lord of Chaos, Prologue.)

 

-Demandred meets again with Mesaana and Graendal. (Lord of Chaos, Chapter 6.)

 

-Demandred once again travels to Shayol Ghul. (Lord of Chaos, Epilogue.)

 

-Demandred meets with Graendal, Osan'gar and Aran'gar. Moridin and Cyndane also show up. (Winter's Heart, Chapter 13.)

 

-Demandred goes to Shadar Logoth in an attempt to stop Rand from cleansing saidin. (Winter's Heart, Chapter 35.)

 

 

Strengths and Talents

 

Like all of the other Forsaken, Demandred is very strong in the One Power, stronger than most of the men who can channel in today's world. We do not know his exact standing among the Forsaken, but it is safe to say that, no matter how powerful a channeler he is, he is less powerful than Ishamael and Moridin.

 

He is also known to have a talent that only three other's possess: Lews Therin (and therefore Rand) and Semirhage. This talent is to be able to block a gateway open, as Rand did when Aviendha ran away from him. (The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 32.)

 

Aside from the One Power, Demandred was a good military general. He had the skills and intellect, and put them to good use both for the Light, and against the Light.

 

 

Relationships with Other Characters

 

Demandred hated Lews Therin Telamon with a deep vengeance, his only reason being that Lews Therin achieved greater success than he did. Demandred is also known to have wanted Ilyena, Lews Therin's wife, to himself. All in all, Lews Therin was the reason that Demandred turned to the Shadow.

 

Demandred hates Rand as he hated Lews Therin. His hatred pretty much simply shifts from one to the other.

 

He is not known to have a particularly good relationship with the other Forsaken, especially Sammael. This most likely arises from the fact that, during the War of Power, both Demandred and Sammael were military generals, and both wanted the honor of killing Lews Therin.

 

Demandred, Mesaana and Semirhage have formed a loose alliance in which they have decided to eliminate all of the other Forsaken before turning on each other. (Winter's Heart, Chapter 13.)

 

 

Quotes

 

"Should I expect more, Lanfear? Have you convinced Demandred to stop thinking he is all but the Great Lord's heir?" (Rahvin to Lanfear.) (The Fires of Heaven, Prologue.)

 

"Great Lord, the Dragon can be destroyed. He is ignorant and weak, scattering his attentions in a dozen directions." (Demandred to the Dark One) (Lord of Chaos, Prologue.)

 

"How much has the Great Lord known, for how long? How much of what has happened has been at his design all along?" (Demandred to Mesaana, Semirhage, Graendal) (Lord of Chaos, Prologue.)

 

"Let the Lord of Chaos rule." (Demandred to himself.) (Lord of Chaos, Chapter 7.)

 

"Why have you called us here? I have much to do, and no time for idle talk." (Demandred to Moridin.) (Winter's Heart, Chapter 13.)

 

 

Theories

 

Over time, many theories have been developed as to Demandred's identity and location.

 

One of the most popular theories is that Demandred has disguised himself as Mazrim Taim. There has been a lot of evidence as to this throughout the series. What better way to get revenge on Lews Therin Telamon/Rand al'Thor than to get close to him, and then back stab him? Also, Mazrim Taim ordered Rand's death in Winter's Heart. However, this theory came to an end when Robert Jordan came out and said that Demandred and Mazrim Taim are not the same person.

 

Another theory is that Demandred has placed himself with the Whitecloaks. As of now, we have had Forsaken scattered all over the world: Semirhage most likely in Seanchan, Mesaana in the White Tower, Graendal in Arad Domon, Sammael in Illian, Rhavin in Andor, and so on and so forth. But we have not yet seen any of them dealing with the Children of the Light. As for his exact identity, with this theory, it could be anyone.

 

Some people also believe that Demandred is working with Semirhage in Seanchan. To support this, there is the fact that Demandred, Mesaana and Semirhage are loosely allied.

 

Shara is also in the running, too, it seems. As with the argument for the Children of the Light, as of yet, only Graendal has shown the slightest interest in Shara. Once again, it would be a territory that no one has claimed, so to speak.

 

And of course, the Sea Folk. Once again, no other Forsaken are involved with them, that we know of. As the Sea Folk control a large number of women who can channel, it could prove a temptation to any of the Forsaken. There is no other proof for this theory.

 

With all of the theories as to Demandred's identity floating around, it is impossible to say who he is. Any of the above theories could be correct, or he could be disguised as someone else. There is also the possibility that he is simply not masquerading as anyone or anything. Ishamael has done it; Demandred could be doing the same.

 

In the words of Robert Jordan, I suppose we will just have to read and find out.

 

 

Miscellaneous

 

-Barid Bel Medar was born one day after Lews Therin Telamon. (Lord of Chaos, Prologue.)

 

-Barid Bel's hatred and jealousy grew with every honor that Lews Therin awarded him. (Guide.)

[Red States Rule!]

Wow that was a grand act to follow.

 

Demandy is getting the boys together in the Blight for the Prologue of the next book.

[Kadere]

Thank you crash for listing everything we already knew or thought about Demandred. We'll make sure to refer back to your post for quotes and information.

[Ilyena]

Im giving you top props for that crash...excellent work on the quotes. I like the Lugard idea for Demandred (one crash didn't mention) This seems like Demandrd has the major possibility of being discovered if Mat goes to Lugard. This will root him oout for the last battle, just like Moggy, Cyndane, Moridin, A'Gar, Messana, and Semirhage have all been forced to abandon their posts. Graendel Will also have to flee or be killed by Avi in the next book, since Avi's headed to Arad.