Steel has no rust…

[DojoToad]

On 1/14/2023 at 11:11 PM, Jsbrads2 said:

obviously I beams are better when freshly made, but in their day and age, even an compromised I beam is better than anything they have from their own day.
 

Yeah, Whitebridge is an artifact from a prior time that is still in use, but it definitely looks very magic sourced. 

A compromised I-beam can fail unexpectedly causing a collapse.

[Jsbrads2]

A compromised I beam is still far stronger than any wooden beam. 

[WhiteVeils]

But unweildy and maybe more than they need.

[DojoToad]

36 minutes ago, Jsbrads2 said:

A compromised I beam is still far stronger than any wooden beam. 

No.  Or at least not necessarily.

 

Steel is stronger than wood, but is compromised steel?  Depends on the extent of the damage, the load on the beam, etc.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

12 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Steel is stronger than wood, but is compromised steel?

It is certainly more brittle - if it fails it will fail suddenly and completely and will give very little warning.  a well understood building method (such as wooden joists) would be preferable to almost anyone especially if there were one or two accidents with the old steel.

[Scarloc99]

15 hours ago, Jsbrads2 said:

A compromised I beam is still far stronger than any wooden beam. 

Your original question was why no rust, the simple explanation in world is because it isn’t necessarily steel as we know it, it could be any kind of alloy, metal or something power created (different to the power wrought weapons). The beam would have been made 1-2000 years from now in a time of extreme advances in technology and skill. 
 

 Now the new question you ask is why this single beam has not been transported maybe hundreads of miles across rough ground to be used as a support for some building you think it should be used for. There are several reasons for this. 
 

No one in this age can afford the money it would cost to move a single very very heavy beam across the land like this. You would need a crane powerful enough to lift it, you would need an army of horses to drag the massive carts needed to transport it. Those carts would need to be reinforced in a way that the weight. A small I beam weighs about 19kg per meter. But the beams seem in that scene are bigger then that, in addition the process to make them “rust proof” may well make them heavier. 
 

So you need to build a crane at both ends. you need a cart that won’t break under the weight of the beam over the not always paved and smooth roads. You will need to navigate rivers, steams, rough terrain. You will need to have a process in place in case a wheel breaks or a part of the cart breaks to get the beam off, then fix the cart and put it back. And then you need soldiers to guard it all the way on this journey. 
 

You will need to do all this in a world where Ogier Stonemasons can work amazing wonders with stone and make remarkable strong buildings, I will ask again, why would a king pay a small fortune to get a metal beam across land to where he wants his big castle or house to be when, for the same price, he can simply pay a team of Ogier to build something far more impressive. 
 

Now you may say, get some aes sedai to help, if you could get enough channelers to lift that metal beam and help transport it across the land (something they would not do) then forget a financial cost, for that you are commuting yours and every heir that follows you to being a proxy of tar valor at the barest minimum. 
 

The fact is that economically it makes far more sense to melt down and reuse all that metal then it does to use the I beam for it’s original purpose. Add in the fact that will people trust a metal beam that has been in the ground for 1000’s of years under who knows what stresses. 

[DojoToad]

21 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Your original question was why no rust, the simple explanation in world is because it isn’t necessarily steel as we know it, it could be any kind of alloy, metal or something power created (different to the power wrought weapons). The beam would have been made 1-2000 years from now in a time of extreme advances in technology and skill. 
 

 Now the new question you ask is why this single beam has not been transported maybe hundreads of miles across rough ground to be used as a support for some building you think it should be used for. There are several reasons for this. 
 

No one in this age can afford the money it would cost to move a single very very heavy beam across the land like this. You would need a crane powerful enough to lift it, you would need an army of horses to drag the massive carts needed to transport it. Those carts would need to be reinforced in a way that the weight. A small I beam weighs about 19kg per meter. But the beams seem in that scene are bigger then that, in addition the process to make them “rust proof” may well make them heavier. 
 

So you need to build a crane at both ends. you need a cart that won’t break under the weight of the beam over the not always paved and smooth roads. You will need to navigate rivers, steams, rough terrain. You will need to have a process in place in case a wheel breaks or a part of the cart breaks to get the beam off, then fix the cart and put it back. And then you need soldiers to guard it all the way on this journey. 
 

You will need to do all this in a world where Ogier Stonemasons can work amazing wonders with stone and make remarkable strong buildings, I will ask again, why would a king pay a small fortune to get a metal beam across land to where he wants his big castle or house to be when, for the same price, he can simply pay a team of Ogier to build something far more impressive. 
 

Now you may say, get some aes sedai to help, if you could get enough channelers to lift that metal beam and help transport it across the land (something they would not do) then forget a financial cost, for that you are commuting yours and every heir that follows you to being a proxy of tar valor at the barest minimum. 
 

The fact is that economically it makes far more sense to melt down and reuse all that metal then it does to use the I beam for it’s original purpose. Add in the fact that will people trust a metal beam that has been in the ground for 1000’s of years under who knows what stresses. 

Boom!

 

Next unsupported statement from @Jsbrads2 in 3, 2, 1...

[SinisterDeath]

7 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

It is certainly more brittle - if it fails it will fail suddenly and completely and will give very little warning.  a well understood building method (such as wooden joists) would be preferable to almost anyone especially if there were one or two accidents with the old steel.

Uninsulated steel becomes compromised in even moderate heat.

Homes framed using steel studs, tend to be far more fire retardant, a fire in a steel framed house is far more devastating than wood framed home.

 

Wood has this amazing ability that it can retain quite a bit of strength when subjected to fire before catastrophic failure. Depending on the fire, once the wood is charred enough, it can just stops burning. If you've ever used a stick to push wood around in a fire pit, you'll likely know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

 

[Scarloc99]

59 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Uninsulated steel becomes compromised in even moderate heat.

Homes framed using steel studs, tend to be far more fire retardant, a fire in a steel framed house is far more devastating than wood framed home.

 

Wood has this amazing ability that it can retain quite a bit of strength when subjected to fire before catastrophic failure. Depending on the fire, once the wood is charred enough, it can just stops burning. If you've ever used a stick to push wood around in a fire pit, you'll likely know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

 

I mean here in the UK we have buildings dating back to the Tudor times with the original wooden beams holding them up still. 

We have yet to see if in 600 years time any of our Metal based buildings will still be standing. 

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean here in the UK we have buildings dating back to the Tudor times with the original wooden beams holding them up still. 

We have yet to see if in 600 years time any of our Metal based buildings will still be standing. 

Here's the cool part.

They probably won't.

Modern Buildings are designed to be overbuilt by a certain percentage to keep cost down.

Consider how much of the Pyramids in Egypt/Mexico are over overbuilt by modern standards. Same goes with Castles with their ridiculously thick walls for the load their carrying. 

Remove humans from the equation, 20-40 years of neglect and exposure to the elements could see some of our tallest buildings crumble.

[Jsbrads2]

I’ve already replied how it could be moved… an I beam isn’t twice as heavy as an oak beam with same height and width. At 19 kg per meter, a ten meter piece would be a mere 190 kg, a bit heavy, but not more than two laborers and requires no special tools to lift, and no special vehicle to transport.

A longer I beam may use a second cart to support the back end of the beam, but the weight of multiple beams won’t have to worry about the road surface.

just like they move heavy items and long items like whole tree trucks, they can move an I beam. The weight involved for one beam isn’t going to strain their technology, pulley systems, ropes or other simple machines that already exist in their day could be used for lifting and the like.

Fire safety building standards were invented in the US in the 1900s or something, they wouldn’t have been  cognizant of that.

[Scarloc99]

10 hours ago, Jsbrads2 said:

I’ve already replied how it could be moved… an I beam isn’t twice as heavy as an oak beam with same height and width. At 19 kg per meter, a ten meter piece would be a mere 190 kg, a bit heavy, but not more than two laborers and requires no special tools to lift, and no special vehicle to transport.

A longer I beam may use a second cart to support the back end of the beam, but the weight of multiple beams won’t have to worry about the road surface.

just like they move heavy items and long items like whole tree trucks, they can move an I beam. The weight involved for one beam isn’t going to strain their technology, pulley systems, ropes or other simple machines that already exist in their day could be used for lifting and the like.

Fire safety building standards were invented in the US in the 1900s or something, they wouldn’t have been  cognizant of that.

An oak beam will be cut and shaped from a tree where the building is being built because there is a tree there. You seem to be ignoring the fact of history, in a pre industrial society such as Randland you build things using the materials close at hand, you don’t generally transport them hundreds of miles. It is why in the UK houses in the north are made of a certain type of brick that is different to the south, why pre industrial buildings built near a forest are wooden. You didn’t get the tudors transporting large wooden beams hundreds of miles. In the American west, before trains were a thing, as far as I am aware people didn’t transport massive wooden logs to the plains of America to build houses. 

 

There is no evidence in any of the books that anyone used a steel girder to build a house. They used local stone. Having said that as far as I am aware there is no real evidence in the books that 
 

But I will ask again, why would anyone pay all that money for a metal girder that they don’t need? There are buildings in Randland that climb to great heights built of stone, towers and palaces made of Ogier stonework. What does a metal girder dug up add. Why waste all that metal in a building when you can melt it down and turn it into armor and weapons for an army. Why mine already made steel and then go and waste it needlessly. 
 

 

[Guire]

So different question alonh same lines.  Do you think any human con men tried to get rich by selling building materials from these relics or tried to act as middle men for ogier stonemasons?  " yea I know all those guys in the stedding.  Just get me some travel coin and I can have em here next week."

[Jsbrads2]

Sir Charrid, I’m not talking about transporting a beam from Bearlon to Tear. They can transport a beam a few miles down the road.

And while yes, a poor person would make his small house from local wood and stone and sell every ounce of metal he mines, nobles wouldn’t. Nobles can afford to buy all the metal weapons, armor and tools they want, and still have enough money to waste on expensive metal beams that can span longer distances for ballrooms and the like in their ginormous mansions.

Yes, the books don’t mention steel Ibeams being mined either. As far as we knew while reading the books, mines only turned up ore. I personally like the Shannara twist to mining. 

[king of nowhere]

On 1/26/2023 at 8:50 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

An oak beam will be cut and shaped from a tree where the building is being built because there is a tree there. You seem to be ignoring the fact of history, in a pre industrial society such as Randland you build things using the materials close at hand, you don’t generally transport them hundreds of miles. 

Sorry, but wrong. There are plenty of counterexamples.

Venice has been a naval superpower through the late middle ages and renaissance, and its ships were made of wood coming from the alps, several hundred kilometers from Venice itself.

And this is not one single heavy object transported at great cost. Making a ship requires hundreds of trunks, including some that must be whole and very tall to use as masts.

Of course, they were cheating a bit: they would throw the chopped trunks into rivers, and collect them downstream. Still, they handled the logistics of tranporting heavy objects on a regular base. Venice itself is built on over 10 million tree trunks, all transported a fair distance because the land around the city didn't have many woods.

 

Also, the people of easter island managed to carry the moai with stone age technology, and they still did it dozens of times.

 

I think you are underestimating ancient societies. Sure, transport was much more expensive, and so they used local materials when possible. But when they had to, they were quite capable of transporting stuff a long distance.

[WhiteVeils]

Even if they used a beam, why would we even see it?  It'd be inside the house, under the thatch/tile, and we'd not bother to look. For all we know, all the decently inshape girders are going to hold up the ogier masonry of the major cities, and are all hidden under marble. Some beams might be useable, some might be twisted beyond being bothered to use, some might be useable but would be much more valuable as ore so they use it for ore.  We'd never know unless we took apart buildings, and we haven't had to, and even if we did, not /every/ building is going to have a beam. 

Such a silly fight.

[SinisterDeath]

On 1/29/2023 at 4:43 PM, king of nowhere said:

Also, the people of easter island managed to carry the moai with stone age technology, and they still did it dozens of times.

 

I think you are underestimating ancient societies. Sure, transport was much more expensive, and so they used local materials when possible. But when they had to, they were quite capable of transporting stuff a long distance.

 

48 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Even if they used a beam, why would we even see it?  It'd be inside the house, under the thatch/tile, and we'd not bother to look. For all we know, all the decently inshape girders are going to hold up the ogier masonry of the major cities, and are all hidden under marble. Some beams might be useable, some might be twisted beyond being bothered to use, some might be useable but would be much more valuable as ore so they use it for ore.  We'd never know unless we took apart buildings, and we haven't had to, and even if we did, not /every/ building is going to have a beam. 

Such a silly fight.

Is it possible? Yes. I don't know that anyone has outright said it's impossible.

Was it done? Probably.

Was it common? After the Breaking? Sure. A thousand years after the breaking? Probably not.

If you built a city on top of the ruins of a city, chances are you'll use the existing materials in some way. Whether you literally use that old city as a foundation for the new city, (Rome/Chicago) or repurpose the materials around it.

The TV show, they were mining a twisted wreck, but that's not to say there weren't wrecks with salvageable material. We haven't seen even a tenth of the world in the tv show yet. Who knows if they'll make certain materials stand out as fragments from before the breaking. Maybe the voice in Rand's head will comment that he "remembers" that piece of architecture.

Time will tell...

[Jsbrads2]

i am fairly convinced that beams could be hidden, but were I a noble who carted a couple of long ibeams many miles to my manor house to use to create my large ballroom, I would have ostentatiously left it open, the steel polished to the point of it looking almost like silver. 

[ForsakenPotato]

The fact that we're discussing the beams at length means it's really time for them to release some season 2 details 😆

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

The fact that we're discussing the beams at length means it's really time for them to release some season 2 details 😆

Indeed

[Scarloc99]

13 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

The fact that we're discussing the beams at length means it's really time for them to release some season 2 details 😆

I mean it depends to what Length, 6M, 18M, 42M ? 

😆