Rafe's answers to Dragonmount #rewotch questions

[Ralph]

Rafe has answered four questions so far on Twitter:

 

1. Favourite bit of foreshadowing in Ep1 that has not been picked up by the fans - Nynaeve saying to Egwene to surrender to the river foreshadowing her breaking her block. 

 

So we clearly have Nynaeve and her block coming up. 

 

2. Scenes he most wishes they could have included in Ep2 - Lan killing the Fade, Moiraine's wall of fire, Lan training the boys. 

 

Nothing to learn here. 

 

3. Choice of Thom's song - for the impact on Rand. 

 

I had noticed this, and assume most book readers did. Only interesting point was he mentioned the choice to make Thom "more Western." 

 

4. Alanna and M's dog - Alanna is good at keeping M's secrets, as we will see in Season 2.

 

Thoughts? M tries to hide the fact she can't channel? 

 

 

 

 

[Vartija]

22 hours ago, Ralph said:

2. Scenes he most wishes they could have included in Ep2 - Lan killing the Fade, Moiraine's wall of fire, Lan training the boys. 

 

Ugh, I really wanted a scene like this. Unsure if I should be happy they at least considered it or disappointed they decided to cut it. 

[Ralph]

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/11/16/the-wheel-of-time-boss-reveals-details-of-deleted-season-1-scenes/

 

not certain whether they were ever in the script or he means they had to cut them from the book. hoping we will at least see Lan training Rand at some point. 

[DaddyFinn]

7 hours ago, Ralph said:

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/11/16/the-wheel-of-time-boss-reveals-details-of-deleted-season-1-scenes/

 

not certain whether they were ever in the script or he means they had to cut them from the book. hoping we will at least see Lan training Rand at some point. 

I think Rafe meant the scenes were cut from the script and were never filmed

[DojoToad]

On 11/15/2022 at 12:49 PM, Ralph said:

2. Scenes he most wishes they could have included in Ep2 - Lan killing the Fade, Moiraine's wall of fire, Lan training the boys. 

 

Could have had at least one and maybe more, but *cough* Stepin *cough*

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Could have had at least one and maybe more, but *cough* Stepin *cough*

To be fair Stepin was in episodes 4 & 5, not a lot of room for Fades in there.  All 3 moments Rafe mentioned were clearly episode 2, maybe 1.  While I would have loved seeing Lan kill the fade that was following them or having a training scene with the boys the scene would need to be in an episode that made sense.

[DojoToad]

11 minutes ago, Skipp said:

To be fair Stepin was in episodes 4 & 5, not a lot of room for Fades in there.  All 3 moments Rafe mentioned were clearly episode 2, maybe 1.  While I would have loved seeing Lan kill the fade that was following them or having a training scene with the boys the scene would need to be in an episode that made sense.

Right, I'm looking at the season as a whole - not on a per-episode basis.  Squeeze the 'wanted' scenes into episodes 1 and/or 2 and move what you lose into episodes 3, 4 or whatever - and Stepin just fades away...

[WhiteVeils]

Except that's exactly why 'back seat screenwriting' doesn't work.

 

Let's say you want to stick close to the books, and you want to skip repeat beats, and you need every single episode of the season to have an A Plot with rising action, conflict, a climax, and falling action, and, ideally, a B and C plot for character development.  This structure isn't necessary in books...it does the same thing over the whole story...but is vital in television.

 

What conflict, rising action, climax, and falling action would you insert in a story that runs before Shadar Logoth?  You'd basically need to insert an entire episode there, What could you pull back?   That's not the best part of the story.

 

The A Plot of the Stepin episode is Egwene and Perrin against the Whitecloaks.  Stepin is a B plot.  Rand and Mat is the C Plot.  Ditching the Stepin part means ditching those other two plots as well...you can't move them before Shadar Logoth.

 

If you want to remove Stepin, which is fine, I guess...it /has/ to be a plot that can run simultaneously with Rand meeting Loial and the Rand/Mat stuff, and simultaneously with Perrin and Egwene vs. the Whitecloaks.  There is no time in that timeframe for Lan training Mat, Perrin, and Rand. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Except that's exactly why 'back seat screenwriting' doesn't work.

 

Let's say you want to stick close to the books, and you want to skip repeat beats, and you need every single episode of the season to have an A Plot with rising action, conflict, a climax, and falling action, and, ideally, a B and C plot for character development.  This structure isn't necessary in books...it does the same thing over the whole story...but is vital in television.

 

What conflict, rising action, climax, and falling action would you insert in a story that runs before Shadar Logoth?  You'd basically need to insert an entire episode there, What could you pull back?   That's not the best part of the story.

 

The A Plot of the Stepin episode is Egwene and Perrin against the Whitecloaks.  Stepin is a B plot.  Rand and Mat is the C Plot.  Ditching the Stepin part means ditching those other two plots as well...you can't move them before Shadar Logoth.

 

If you want to remove Stepin, which is fine, I guess...it /has/ to be a plot that can run simultaneously with Rand meeting Loial and the Rand/Mat stuff, and simultaneously with Perrin and Egwene vs. the Whitecloaks.  There is no time in that timeframe for Lan training Mat, Perrin, and Rand. 

I understand what you're saying - and I don't disagree that my statement was an oversimplification.

 

But my point is that if Rafe wishes he could have these scenes in - he could have - taking into account individual character and show arcs in their entirety.  And he could have done it way better than my amateur back-seat screenwriting.

 

Rafe didn't put in scenes he wanted because he prioritized other scenes.

[WhiteVeils]

He said he wanted to put in those scenes but couldn't.  That's why they were cut.  Not because he prioritized Stepin or whatever.  They were cut after they were written, then were written as part of episode 2, and cut most likely for time, or perhaps because they weren't moving the story forward in focused enough fashion.  There was nowhere else after episode 2 that they were all together in order to put them back in.  It's very likely he didn't even have the choice about it being cut.

 

It's easy to think it's all a zero sum game...that including this thing I don't like here is clearly what cut this thing I do like from this completely other place, but that's not how it works. 

 

 

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

He said he wanted to put in those scenes but couldn't.  That's why they were cut.  Not because he prioritized Stepin or whatever.  They were cut after they were written, then were written as part of episode 2, and cut most likely for time, or perhaps because they weren't moving the story forward in focused enough fashion.  There was nowhere else after episode 2 that they were all together in order to put them back in.  It's very likely he didn't even have the choice about it being cut.

 

It's easy to think it's all a zero sum game...that including this thing I don't like here is clearly what cut this thing I do like from this completely other place, but that's not how it works. 

 

 

Rafe is the showrunner the buck has to stop with someone.

 

More development of the main cast in exchange for cutting a nonexistent book character IMO clearly does far more for the story. Would have been easy to weave discussion on the Warder bond into some dialogue between Rand and Lan after he found out that Egwene was going to train to be Aes Sedai.

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

He said he wanted to put in those scenes but couldn't.  That's why they were cut. 

 

Why not?  He's the showrunner.

 

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Not because he prioritized Stepin or whatever.  They were cut after they were written, then were written as part of episode 2, and cut most likely for time, or perhaps because they weren't moving the story forward in focused enough fashion. 

 

He controls the time (based on parameters supplied by Amazon).  He also controls the story.  If scenes weren't focused enough send it back to the writers.

 

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

There was nowhere else after episode 2 that they were all together in order to put them back in.  It's very likely he didn't even have the choice about it being cut.

Because the story the writers created, at his direction, did not have them together.  Conscious choice.

 

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

It's easy to think it's all a zero sum game...that including this thing I don't like here is clearly what cut this thing I do like from this completely other place, but that's not how it works. 

 

 

In the end, Amazon sets the budget and time constraints.  If Rafe can't make the show he wants with the scenes he wants, that is all on him.

Edited November 18, 2022 by DojoToad

[king of nowhere]

15 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Rafe didn't put in scenes he wanted because he prioritized other scenes.

well, of course. that's the problem. he has 6 hours of total run time, and he has to fit in one book and parts of two other books. he could afford to put other scenes, but he has to prioritize.

just in the same way that you [assuming you to be an average guy] could buy a luxury car if you really wanted, but you have to prioritize other things with your limited money. 

 

I get it, you didn't like the stepin sequence, and anything else in your argument basically boils down to you not liking that sequence.

but a lot of people* did like that sequence, and we've seen a ton of training montages or swordfights in other fantasy televisions. so I think putting something that was unique for wot was better.

do not disparage the stepin scene. it carried a strong emotional impact while deliveling important worldbuilding elements that will be needed later in the plot. a training or fighting sequence may have looked cooler, but it would have accomplished neither.

 

* by "a lot" i mean that I liked it, my brother's girlfriend - who did not read the books - liked it, and my brother didn't like it, but he didn't like mostly nothing of the changes from the books and he didn't dislike that specific change more than the others. I don't have access to a larger sample

Edited November 18, 2022 by king of nowhere

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

well, of course. that's the problem. he has 6 hours of total run time, and he has to fit in one book and parts of two other books. he could afford to put other scenes, but he has to prioritize.

just in the same way that you [assuming you to be an average guy] could buy a luxury car if you really wanted, but you have to prioritize other things with your limited money. 

 

I get it, you didn't like the stepin sequence, and anything else in your argument basically boils down to you not liking that sequence.

but a lot of people* did like that sequence, and we've seen a ton of training montages or swordfights in other fantasy televisions. so I think putting something that was unique for wot was better.

do not disparage the stepin scene. it carried a strong emotional impact while deliveling important worldbuilding elements that will be needed later in the plot. a training or fighting sequence may have looked cooler, but it would have accomplished neither.

 

* by "a lot" i mean that I liked it, my brother's girlfriend - who did not read the books - liked it, and my brother didn't like it, but he didn't like mostly nothing of the changes from the books and he didn't dislike that specific change more than the others. I don't have access to a larger sample

There were other scenes I didn't like other than Stepin.  The Stepin arc is just easy to pick out because it took up the most time.  So don't assume that my whole argument is based on Stepin because it isn't.

 

There were also scenes I liked that were new or off-screen in the books that I did like in the show - Logain!  *Other than the pathetic attack by the remnants of his army trying to rescue him*  I thought Logain's scenes were world-building and took a lot less time.  The warder bond did not warrant more time than the differences between saidar and saidin - not to mention the taint.

Edited November 18, 2022 by DojoToad

[SinisterDeath]

17 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Except that's exactly why 'back seat screenwriting' doesn't work.

 

Let's say you want to stick close to the books, and you want to skip repeat beats, and you need every single episode of the season to have an A Plot with rising action, conflict, a climax, and falling action, and, ideally, a B and C plot for character development.  This structure isn't necessary in books...it does the same thing over the whole story...but is vital in television.

 

What conflict, rising action, climax, and falling action would you insert in a story that runs before Shadar Logoth?  You'd basically need to insert an entire episode there, What could you pull back?   That's not the best part of the story.

 

The A Plot of the Stepin episode is Egwene and Perrin against the Whitecloaks.  Stepin is a B plot.  Rand and Mat is the C Plot.  Ditching the Stepin part means ditching those other two plots as well...you can't move them before Shadar Logoth.

 

If you want to remove Stepin, which is fine, I guess...it /has/ to be a plot that can run simultaneously with Rand meeting Loial and the Rand/Mat stuff, and simultaneously with Perrin and Egwene vs. the Whitecloaks.  There is no time in that timeframe for Lan training Mat, Perrin, and Rand. 

Here's my thought.

On Screen, How do you play up Rand's distrust for Moiraine & Aes Sedai, AND have him trust Lan enough to train him with the sword?
 

From the Audiences point of view, Lan is Moiraine's lap dog. 

 

I would have loved to see a training montage in Episode 2, but given the limitations on episode length they had, I don't know that you could have shown them "trust" Moiraine & Lan in the beginning, and then show that trust wane before everyone gets separated.

 

  

10 hours ago, Mailman said:

Rafe is the showrunner the buck has to stop with someone.

Producers, Executives is where the buck stops. Literally. 
There's a reason I keep mentioning it, but streaming services don't operate like traditional TV networks. Show runners aren't where the buck stops anymore.

[WhiteVeils]

The Showrunner isn't the dictator. Rafe wrote the season to have 10 episodes and a 2 hour pilot, as I understand it. He didn't get that.  He doesn't get to choose his runtime. Amazon chose that.  Amazon saying "This episode is 1hr 5 minutes. It has to be less than an hour", means Rafe has to do it. 

The Stepin stuff took 14 minutes of total runtime in Episode 5.  Total.  That 14 minutesdoes so many things for the series that are straight from the books.  At least if it goes the way I'm guessing it does.

• It sets up why Moiraine in S2 sets up transferring Lan's bond upon her death (probably Alanna instead of Myrelle).   This is a huge conflict between Moiraine and Lan through Great Hunt, Dragon Reborn, and Shadow Rising, and we see that in lots of places but rarely front and center on screen because we look through the 'kids' POVs. 
• It sets up why Gawyn fights as he does in the Tower Coup as his teachers go mad due to their Aes Sedai being killed and start killing those around them.
• It sets up Alanna bonding Rand and makes Moridin's final play at Shadar Logoth, using Alanna against Rand, a very real thing.
• It sets up a lot of significance for Elayne bonding Birgitte, and the three-way bonding with Rand.

 

Some of those things, like the Moiraine setting up the transfer of Lan's bond, happen in the series in the Great Hunt...that's S2.  We have to set that up ahead of time.

 

They /also/ set up the corruption on Saidin and Madness with Logain's story, showing the voices speaking to him and how he was interacting with them.  They didn't introduce the new terminology because they weren't trying to overload the viewer with new terms, but they certainly showed its effect as part of an actual story. Stepin was the same. 

 

Having people talking about it is not the same as making the audience actually feel the threat of what happens when an Aes Sedai dies.  

[DojoToad]

40 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Having people talking about it is not the same as making the audience actually feel the threat of what happens when an Aes Sedai dies.  

Neither does having Dana talk about why she is a darkfriend, but there you go...

[WhiteVeils]

Different scales of relevance to the story.

[DojoToad]

8 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Different scales of relevance to the story.

Correct.  There are a lot more darkfriends than there are Aes Sedai/Warder pairings.

[Spider Spence]

I liked the Stepin plot in a void--it just took up so much time for other things that should have been set up, like Rand's swordfighting, or giving Ishamael more character than wandering around making heavy metal feedback noises in dreams.

 

I suspect that non-readers liked the Stepin material because it didn't feel like it had been agonized over and trimmed down and collapsed from multiple other scenes.

[Chivalry]

On 11/16/2022 at 9:08 AM, Vartija said:

Ugh, I really wanted a scene like this. Unsure if I should be happy they at least considered it or disappointed they decided to cut it. 

😢

[Scarloc99]

On 11/17/2022 at 10:42 PM, DojoToad said:

I understand what you're saying - and I don't disagree that my statement was an oversimplification.

 

But my point is that if Rafe wishes he could have these scenes in - he could have - taking into account individual character and show arcs in their entirety.  And he could have done it way better than my amateur back-seat screenwriting.

 

Rafe didn't put in scenes he wanted because he prioritized other scenes.

I get the idea of removing Stepin, I am not entirely sure where I stand on those scenes myself, but, if you remove them then I imagine they get replaced with a different story thread involving warders and Aes Sedai. It is clear Rafe included them because he felt it was important to explain that bond, to show how deep it is, how it works and why a warder can't just go and do there own thing. It ties a warder and their Aes Sedai together and also explains why Lan is so distraught at Morraine going into the blight alone with Rand later on in the season. If she dies then so does he. 

The Bond is an important link in the series and the thing these scenes do is show not tell. In the book it can be described how it feels to each half, in a TV show you don't get that internal dialogue, you either have to show it through story, or have a long bit of exposition with no purpose but to "explain to the viewer", TV and Movies are shifting away from exposition dumps, which is a good thing, so you have to show it. 

I imagine when writing it out Rafe started with the thought of. "I need to show the bond and what happens when an Aes Sedai dies" I don't disagree with that being an important thing to show. 
His options 
Aes Sedai dies and warder becomes a berserker fighting until he dies and then has that explained by Lan telling Nyn the why (exposition dump but with a visual example). Lan can explain that if the warder doesn't find immediate death then it becomes like a wasting disease. 

Or, Aes Sedai dies and the warder is stopped from going on a murder frenzy, finding his own death, in order to escort the body back home, this then gives the opportunity to demonstrate the slow death a warder suffers. It explains how a bond can be passed and that forceful bonding against the warders will is not allowed. It helps explain why Morraine links Lan to another incase she dies. 

From there then Rafe makes the logical idea of, if the body has been escorted back we then need to show a funeral, this then also allows us to get to Tar Valon far earlier, show the Aes Sedai political structure and really make a story of that warder AS bond. 

I understand people not liking it, but, the more I have been thinking about it the more and more sense the story makes. I think, in terms of where it sits in the series and in terms of the things it sets up in that part of season 1 if you replace these scenes you then have a massive domino effect and have to rewrite large sections of story to get the characters where they are while still giving the audience that very important information about the bond. 

I imagine season 2 will be when Morraine tells Lan she has made it that his bond will be passed on if she dies. The audience need to be able to understand why that is so important and what it means for Nyn in a more visceral way then just Morraine saying "If I die I don't want you becoming suicidal". 

But we have all been going round and round this artistic decision and, I think until we see how it plays out long term for non book readers it is hard to judge if it was necessary or not. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Scarloc99]

On 11/18/2022 at 3:59 AM, Mailman said:

Rafe is the showrunner the buck has to stop with someone.

 

More development of the main cast in exchange for cutting a nonexistent book character IMO clearly does far more for the story. Would have been easy to weave discussion on the Warder bond into some dialogue between Rand and Lan after he found out that Egwene was going to train to be Aes Sedai.

More exposition, which makes for awful on screen story telling. Especially for such an important part of the story. 

Lan teaching the boys to fight is still a viable option for the show, we are also going to get to see Lan Rand and Gaul train with sword, spears, and hand to hand fighting (for me a scene I am looking far more forward to then that initial fight training on the escape run). We are hopefully going to get Mat schooling Galad and Gawayn with a staff, and probably Perrin training with his axe. We don't need these same types of scene over and over given the short run time of the series. You include a fight training montage in season 1 then you probably cut out the scenes above for time, why show the same style of thing over and over, and what, really, do they teach you other then being a cool moment for the book fans. Lan teaches the boys the rudiments of sword fighting great. It isn't important to the story. Rand's true training comes at the start of book 2 and during book 3. Mat already is an expert with the staff, far better to have that happen as a surprise as it does in the books and Perrin hates the axe, far better to show him reluctantly training to use it later on. Lets see those scenes they are far more fun and important then what was cut. 

[Scarloc99]

On 11/18/2022 at 9:13 AM, DojoToad said:

Why not?  He's the showrunner.

 

He controls the time (based on parameters supplied by Amazon).  He also controls the story.  If scenes weren't focused enough send it back to the writers.

 

Because the story the writers created, at his direction, did not have them together.  Conscious choice.

 

In the end, Amazon sets the budget and time constraints.  If Rafe can't make the show he wants with the scenes he wants, that is all on him.

The escape from the trollocs in the book is over a far longer period of time, the heroes are allowed time each night to train and practice. It isn't until later chapters they have to make a sprint run for it into SL. In the TV show that whole montage has a lot more urgency, sleep is snatched in moments when it can be.

Lan is busy tracking and watching and guarding. The boys are presented as being sheep, sheparded away from the pursuing trollocs, and then, they all split up. To my mind in the TV show they reach SL in a few days, while in the Books what is it, a few weeks of travel? A training montage in the middle of this intense escape scene breaks up that rhythm on screen. I think Rafe made the right creative decision, there is plenty of time to see the boys learning how to fight, in the books those training sessions are rudimentry and it is made clear do not make sword fighters of any of them. Rands true training happens between books 1 and 2 and then in books 3 and 4. Mat has a natural ability with the quarter staff from his dad, this isn't shown until book 3 and Perrin's fighting ability comes more from the Wolf instincts then martial training initially. 
 

[Scarloc99]

21 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Here's my thought.

On Screen, How do you play up Rand's distrust for Moiraine & Aes Sedai, AND have him trust Lan enough to train him with the sword?
 

From the Audiences point of view, Lan is Moiraine's lap dog. 

 

I would have loved to see a training montage in Episode 2, but given the limitations on episode length they had, I don't know that you could have shown them "trust" Moiraine & Lan in the beginning, and then show that trust wane before everyone gets separated.

 

  

Producers, Executives is where the buck stops. Literally. 
There's a reason I keep mentioning it, but streaming services don't operate like traditional TV networks. Show runners aren't where the buck stops anymore.

Even traditional TV networks the buck didn't stop with the showrunner, it always stops with the source of the money. Now, some Production companies do give more freedom, or, the showrunners/actors/directors ensure they get production credits as well. But there where always controls and limits put in place to ensure show runners kept on track. The West Wing is a great example (comes to mind because I just finished binging it again) the show as presented was not going to highlight the president as much, sam was going to be the main lead, but the producers influence helped shift the theme of the show once they knew they had Martin Sheen cast.