Who made the better grade? WOT or ROP

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, expat said:

Is the difference of a few feet (especially when Moiraine called her out, not him) when at his normal alert level to arm length when extremely distracted really the hill to die on?

I mean, I'm not dying on any hills. I'm calling out a missed opportunity to do something better.

 

9 minutes ago, expat said:

it does require focus and some level of concentration.

Exactly. Things that Warders are trained to maintain even under the most severe circumstances. The idea that: 

 

10 minutes ago, expat said:

he was in pain and his concentration was soley focused on how to save Moiraine (and himself) from death in a few hours.

and therefore unable to hear Nyn sneak up on him implies that Warders are just dudes with swords (or axes, or whatever). But they aren't. They're more than that. The writers had an opportunity to point this out by using a callback to what happened in the book and they missed it. That is the only point I'm making.

[expat]

16 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

and therefore unable to hear Nyn sneak up on him implies that Warders are just dudes with swords (or axes, or whatever). But they aren't. 

Sorry, but they are just dudes with swords.   Well-trained and exceptionally skilled, but the bond doesn't make them superman.  There are still human limitations on how much they can do and see at one time.  For example, if Lan is in the middle of a sword fight, it would be almost impossible for another foe to sneak up on him like Nyn did because he would be alert for such things.  However, what would your reaction be if while fighting, he didn't notice dark hound tracks 10 feet away?  Would it be he is a master tracker, this is sacrilege or he's concentrating on something else at the time?

[DojoToad]

40 minutes ago, expat said:

Sorry, but they are just dudes with swords.   Well-trained and exceptionally skilled, but the bond doesn't make them superman.  There are still human limitations on how much they can do and see at one time.  For example, if Lan is in the middle of a sword fight, it would be almost impossible for another foe to sneak up on him like Nyn did because he would be alert for such things.  However, what would your reaction be if while fighting, he didn't notice dark hound tracks 10 feet away?  Would it be he is a master tracker, this is sacrilege or he's concentrating on something else at the time?

Tracking is something he picked up before coming together with Moiraine - and has probably honed the skills further since then.  Tracking has nothing to do with the bond.  Tracking aside, the bond does make them superhuman.  They can continue doing whatever they need to do without sleep, through fatigue, with injuries that would slow, stop, or kill another.  They have superhuman abilities.

 

Again, tracking is outside the bond.  But I believe his awareness of surroundings is preternatural along with above listed abilities - and all were delivered with the bond.

 

If you don't see these as superhuman (Superman), what abilities would be?

Edited January 5, 2023 by DojoToad

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, expat said:

what would your reaction be if while fighting, he didn't notice dark hound tracks 10 feet away?  Would it be he is a master tracker, this is sacrilege or he's concentrating on something else at the time?

This analogy has no bearing on my argument. That argument, again, is that the writers missed an opportunity to show Lan do something exceptional. 

[expat]

13 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Tracking is something he picked up before coming together with Moiraine - and has probably honed the skills further since then.  Tracking has nothing to do with the bond.  Tracking aside, the bond does make them superhuman.  They can continue doing whatever they need to do without sleep, through fatigue, with injuries that would slow, stop, or kill another.  They have superhuman abilities.

 

Again, tracking is outside the bond.  But I believe his awareness of surroundings is preternatural along with above listed abilities - and all were delivered with the bond.

 

If you don't see these as superhuman (Superman), what abilities would be?

Your examples are all about getting extra stamina through the bond.  I agree that this would be superhuman abilities.  However, what we are talking about is being able to mentally do multiple things requiring focus and concentration at the same time. There is no evidence in the books that the bond gives them the ability to multitask like that. 

 

Tracking was just an example of a mental exercise. It wasn't implying that the bond gave him any advantage in that area. If you don't like that one, how about Lan fighting Trollocs and composing poetry at the same time?  Unless the bond gives him a split brain, he is not going to have the mental capacity to do both simultaneously.  The best example we have is Rand who is bonded to multiple people and in his massive number of POVs we don't see any examples of doing multiple, unrelated mental activities at the same time. 

 

In the book, Nynaeve got within a few feet of him while he wasn't distracted.  In the show, he was distracted, on the edge of despair, trying to figure out how to save Moiraine (and himself) and she got within arm's length.  It's such a small difference that the distraction easily explains it.  We normally have to suspend disbelief not to go a little crazy in fantasy fiction, but this might be the first time that people get so upset about a real-world accurate scene.

 

The other thing not mentioned is that once his concentration moved from Moriaine to his surroundings, he was easily able to take the knife from Nyn.  Again, just what you would expect from real life experience.

[expat]

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

This analogy has no bearing on my argument. That argument, again, is that the writers missed an opportunity to show Lan do something exceptional. 

But unrealistic.

 

I was just reading the other thread about healing and there was some posts noting the healing made the girls overstrengthed.  This is the same issue here.  Having Lan having unrealistic mental abilities makes him overstrengthed.  

 

I agree that the show writers could have shown Lan's exceptional abilities better, but that isn't a reason to give him new abilities.  Just highlight the ones he has better.

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, expat said:

Your examples are all about getting extra stamina through the bond.  I agree that this would be superhuman abilities.  However, what we are talking about is being able to mentally do multiple things requiring focus and concentration at the same time. There is no evidence in the books that the bond gives them the ability to multitask like that. 

 

Tracking was just an example of a mental exercise. It wasn't implying that the bond gave him any advantage in that area. If you don't like that one, how about Lan fighting Trollocs and composing poetry at the same time?  Unless the bond gives him a split brain, he is not going to have the mental capacity to do both simultaneously.  The best example we have is Rand who is bonded to multiple people and in his massive number of POVs we don't see any examples of doing multiple, unrelated mental activities at the same time. 

 

In the book, Nynaeve got within a few feet of him while he wasn't distracted.  In the show, he was distracted, on the edge of despair, trying to figure out how to save Moiraine (and himself) and she got within arm's length.  It's such a small difference that the distraction easily explains it.  We normally have to suspend disbelief not to go a little crazy in fantasy fiction, but this might be the first time that people get so upset about a real-world accurate scene.

 

The other thing not mentioned is that once his concentration moved from Moriaine to his surroundings, he was easily able to take the knife from Nyn.  Again, just what you would expect from real life experience.

My argument was always that Warders had superhuman abilities - not that they could multi-task.  Glad we agree.

Edited January 6, 2023 by DojoToad

[expat]

After thinking about the issue more, I want to revise my thoughts.  The discussion is based on the hubris of the book reader.  We know the scene from the book and the question is whether the series scene makes sense based on that scene.  However, the important viewer is the non-book reader, and the scene plays far differently. 

 

To the non-book reader, their experience is that almost nobody could sneak up on Lan, no matter his mental state, at night over uneven, forestry terrain.  I'm certain I, or almost any other viewer, couldn't get within 50-75 feet of him before I would rustle some leaves or snap a twig.  Other viewers would have the same opinion.  Therefore, Lan detecting Nyn would not appear exceptional (duh, of course he would), nor him not detecting her appear realistic.  So, to the non-book reader, both our arguments fall flat.  This would be just another scene of suspending disbelief in a fantasy series.

[Blackbyrd]

On 1/6/2023 at 7:23 AM, expat said:

After thinking about the issue more, I want to revise my thoughts.  The discussion is based on the hubris of the book reader.  We know the scene from the book and the question is whether the series scene makes sense based on that scene.  However, the important viewer is the non-book reader, and the scene plays far differently. 

 

To the non-book reader, their experience is that almost nobody could sneak up on Lan, no matter his mental state, at night over uneven, forestry terrain.  I'm certain I, or almost any other viewer, couldn't get within 50-75 feet of him before I would rustle some leaves or snap a twig.  Other viewers would have the same opinion.  Therefore, Lan detecting Nyn would not appear exceptional (duh, of course he would), nor him not detecting her appear realistic.  So, to the non-book reader, both our arguments fall flat.  This would be just another scene of suspending disbelief in a fantasy series.

 

The hubris of the book reader is that Nynaeve is the mirror of Rand- she slammed Mogs like a punk ass without a thought, and while Rand fueled horses, maybe, just maybe Nynaeve could use her skills in the power to sneak up on a man. 'She can't track him' she literally moved through every dark damn place, through pure insanity to get where she was in the books. Nynaeve SLAYS

Edited January 9, 2023 by Blackbyrd

[wotfan4472]

On 1/1/2023 at 7:15 AM, DojoToad said:

Many of us had the same alarm bells with WoT from trailers and promotional shots, but there is no way that would have stopped me from watching the show - at least until the show proved the fears were warranted...

Interesting. The only alarm bell that rang for me personally was the image of Loial, until I saw him in the show. I love him.

[Sabio]

ROP was better IMO but it had two big advantages.  It had a much larger budget and since ROP was forbidden from using a lot of the lore, they had to make most of it up.  Which prevents the issue the Movies had with it strayed too far from the books etc issues.  WOT will always be compared to the books, and IMO  there is too much in the books for an 8 episode season not to feel rushed and seem like they cut alot.

[Elder_Haman]

12 hours ago, Sabio said:

since ROP was forbidden from using a lot of the lore, they had to make most of it up.

This has always been a huge advantage for ROP. The source material is sort of like a high school history book, which allows a vast amount of room to create stories within the broad frame. WOT is beloved as a book series in large part because of the details. The comparisons are inevitable and any adaptation will prove lacking for many.

 

In terms of show quality, I found them to be roughly equal. Both had moments that induced cringe in me (as an avid fan of both Tolkien and Jordan), and both had moments that made me smile or laugh from the same perspective. I preferred WOTs cast and ROPs writing. ROP clearly had the bigger budget and WOT a much heavier lift from a special effects perspective. On the other hand, I thought the way the Power was depicted was a strong point of the series and am really looking forward to seeing what they do as it becomes a more nuanced tool.

 

If I had to declare a winner, for me it was ROP by a nose - owing mostly to the quality of the final episodes.  The final episode of WOT a real let down for me. The resolution of Tarwin's Gap just feel entirely flat (though understandable due to all the COVID difficulties), while the final episode of ROP was satisfying.

[WhiteVeils]

I watched both, but found ROP boring. It was beautiful, and I had no problems with the changes in the story. It was even decently acted. But it was boring to myself and my husband.

[DojoToad]

40 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

I watched both, but found ROP boring. It was beautiful, and I had no problems with the changes in the story. It was even decently acted. But it was boring to myself and my husband.

What changes to the story - I thought this was made from whole cloth?  Or do you mean changes to timeline/lore?

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

What changes to the story - I thought this was made from whole cloth?  Or do you mean changes to timeline/lore?

Sorry about the previous post.  I meant changes to the lore.

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

I watched both, but found ROP boring. It was beautiful, and I had no problems with the changes in the story. It was even decently acted. But it was boring to myself and my husband.

I did find the first 2-3 episodes pretty slow, but it picked up steam with the last few episodes. Sort of the inverse of WOT, which started well and sputtered at the end.

[expat]

Since there was a lot of comparisons between WOT and Witcher season 2, I'll ask about WOT versus the Witcher prequel here instead of creating a new thread.  I watched the first two episodes of the prequel and found it a pointless and mostly random story.  Things happened because the plot, what there was of it, required it, but with no internal drive.  The fight sequences were bad.  There was no characterization, just plot driven action.

 

I enjoyed WOT much more than the Witcher prequel (so far).  Hopefully the last 2 episodes will be better.

[Scarloc99]

11 hours ago, expat said:

Since there was a lot of comparisons between WOT and Witcher season 2, I'll ask about WOT versus the Witcher prequel here instead of creating a new thread.  I watched the first two episodes of the prequel and found it a pointless and mostly random story.  Things happened because the plot, what there was of it, required it, but with no internal drive.  The fight sequences were bad.  There was no characterization, just plot driven action.

 

I enjoyed WOT much more than the Witcher prequel (so far).  Hopefully the last 2 episodes will be better.

I mean the witcher prequel just proves that the rumours where correct about the writers and producers not actually knowing anything about the lore. 

[forte12]

On 1/4/2023 at 9:39 AM, DojoToad said:

 

 

Explains why he seems to be in so far over his head.  I understand giving the guy a chance, but Rafe is drowning.  Showrunner duties are beyond him - including dealing with COVID and Barney leaving.

Sorry to bring this back up, but I honestly think this is a bit unfair to the guy. A global wide pandemic that shuts down all productions in the world the leaves every COUNTRY struggling with how to grapple with  it and directly impacts film production in huge ways ( international travel, tons of people in small spaces- etc) and one of your main cast members deciding (or being forced/asked to leave) 3/4 of the way through season one and still getting the show on the air and having it be a decent sized hit is not drowning. You can hate his creative decisions but the fact that he was able to navigate all of that and still produce this show and deliver it to Amazon and have it do as well as it did is actually quite impressive from a showrunning prospective- which is as much logistics, budgeting and physical production as it is creative. Keeping the train on the tracks during all of that ( which he did just by getting the show released) was a miracle. As someone who has worked in TV for 15 years, he's got my respect on that front. 

 

I know others brings up that other shows faced COVID, and of course they did- they still do. But there are only a handful of TV series that are on the scale of WOT being produced (scope of production, size of cast, how international the cast/crew is, etc) and I think the only two in production at the time were Witcher 2 and Rings of Power- both of which I think probably suffered creatively from it (many would say WOT season 1 is as good as both those shows or at least hangs with them), we just don't see it as much because they weren't forced to do massive rewrites on their finale episode due to an actor leaving. Imagine if Yennifer or Galadriel broke her contract and just left after episode 6 and you already had done a month of pre production , brought 300-400 crew members away from their families during a global pandemic, had them quarantine, etc. You can't send them back home without a massive cost to production that could potentially end the show before it premires . What do you do? You rewrite the best you can on the fly ( and you are restricted on those rewrites because you've already done most of the work-building sets, finding locations that are now COVID friendly, costuming, casting, etc). They couldn't change almost anything from a budget prospective but they had to change almost everything and they probably had only a couple of weeks/days to do it. To stop down a production of this size for any length of time would cost hundreds of thousands a day.

 

You can dislike his creative choices (which is fair and I would agree with you), but the fact that he's been asked to run another major show for Amazon ( or they've bought it from him) and we are going into season 3 of this show means he's doing well enough to not be drowning. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by forte12

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, forte12 said:

Sorry to bring this back up, but I honestly think this is a bit unfair to the guy. A global wide pandemic that shuts down all productions in the world the leaves every COUNTRY struggling with how to grapple with  it and directly impacts film production in huge ways ( international travel, tons of people in small spaces- etc) and one of your main cast members deciding (or being forced/asked to leave) 3/4 of the way through season one and still getting the show on the air and having it be a decent sized hit is not drowning. You can hate his creative decisions but the fact that he was able to navigate all of that and still produce this show and deliver it to Amazon and have it do as well as it did is actually quite impressive from a showrunning prospective- which is as much logistics, budgeting and physical production as it is creative. Keeping the train on the tracks during all of that ( which he did just by getting the show released) was a miracle. As someone who has worked in TV for 15 years, he's got my respect on that front. 

 

I know others brings up that other shows faced COVID, and of course they did- they still do. But there are only a handful of TV series that are on the scale of WOT being produced (scope of production, size of cast, how international the cast/crew is, etc) and I think the only two in production at the time were Witcher 2 and Rings of Power- both of which I think probably suffered creatively from it (many would say WOT season 1 is as good as both those shows or at least hangs with them), we just don't see it as much because they weren't forced to do massive rewrites on their finale episode due to an actor leaving. Imagine if Yennifer or Galadriel broke her contract and just left after episode 6 and you already had done a month of pre production , brought 300-400 crew members away from their families during a global pandemic, had them quarantine, etc. You can't send them back home without a massive cost to production that could potentially end the show before it premires . What do you do? You rewrite the best you can on the fly ( and you are restricted on those rewrites because you've already done most of the work-building sets, finding locations that are now COVID friendly, costuming, casting, etc). They couldn't change almost anything from a budget prospective but they had to change almost everything and they probably had only a couple of weeks/days to do it. To stop down a production of this size for any length of time would cost hundreds of thousands a day.

 

You can dislike his creative choices (which is fair and I would agree with you), but the fact that he's been asked to run another major show for Amazon ( or they've bought it from him) and we are going into season 3 of this show means he's doing well enough to not be drowning. 

Or maybe Rafe is not as important to the overall success/failure of his projects:

• WoT, GoW, Uncharted, etc.
• Elon Musk - Twitter, Tesla, SpaceX, etc.

Maybe more falls to the people working with these gentlemen.

 

Also, my reference to Rafe drowning was in response to people that liked the show overall but had problems with the final product - many of them used COVID and Barney leaving as reasons the show wasn't as good as it could have been.  They didn't like some of the creative choices that were made but excused them as beyond Rafe's control.  COVID and Barney were beyond Rafe's control but how he handled it, including creative choices, was not.

Edited January 16, 2023 by DojoToad

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Maybe more falls to the people working with these gentlemen.

I mean, you're not wrong.

Look at HBO. They arguably produce the best shows on television... and to bring up D&D again, we had two incompetent armatures running what was one of the most watched, scripted television shows (GoT) in the last decade.

They did this, because the people at HBO are just good at what they do.

[wotfan4472]

On 1/14/2023 at 10:15 AM, WhiteVeils said:

Sorry about the previous post.  I meant changes to the lore.

Well, going from the trailers, Galadriel is wearing the star of Feanor, and is basically running around doing what Elrond should be doing.

 

The biggest grievance is the star. Galadriel in lore would not wear it, considering two of her cousins, Celegorm and Curufin both betrayed her brother to Sauron, and attempted to usurp Nagothrond, all because Beren came to get help to enter Angband for a Silmaril.

 

They only got kicked out, because Luthien and Huan's fight with Sauron was witnessed by captives of Finrod's people. It is basically the only time in fantasy where a maiden shows up badass mighty figures before the modern age with that fight.

 

The show is also saying that Galadriel has not founded Lothlorien yet. The lore says she founded it long before the time Numenor falls. In fact, it is as old as Imladris is.

 

At the least, she is at most a councillor for Gil Galad. If she is doing what the show says, she should be wearing Gil Galad's sigil, not Celebrimbor's.

 

Galadriel here should be like Elayne on the road to becoming like Morgase in the books. Busy securing and developing her realm, not running around like Moiraine.

Edited January 18, 2023 by wotfan4472

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, wotfan4472 said:

Well, going from the trailers, Galadriel is wearing the star of Feanor, and is basically running around doing what Elrond should be doing.

 

Hmm.  Seem to have seen this in another series too...

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

I think you are referring to the star on the armor made for her in Numenor?  If so that is a symbol of Numenor (being founded by Elros Tar-Minyator son of Earendil the Mariner who bears the only surviving Silmaril across the sky).  It appears to be in keeping with the lore.  

[wotfan4472]

4 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I think you are referring to the star on the armor made for her in Numenor?  If so that is a symbol of Numenor (being founded by Elros Tar-Minyator son of Earendil the Mariner who bears the only surviving Silmaril across the sky).  It appears to be in keeping with the lore.  

If it is the star of Elros, then it is a bigger break, considering Elrond is his brother.