Season 2 sneak peek + other NYCC stuff

[DojoToad]

8 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I don't disagree that the Nynaeve and Egwene moments were over the top S1, but I think we have to see more before I pass judgement. A WAFO if you will...

They can't slow down now.  All the TV WoT fans expect hero moments to come fast and furious.

[expat]

Quote

But that would require the writers to know what they are doing and to understand the source material and care.

What I find ironic is that if the book EOTW had a different finish and the show filmed the book ending, we would hear the exact same criticism.  I seriously disliked episode 8, but for every problem with it, the original book ending had an equal number.  Bluntly, the EOTW endings in both the book and the series sucked.  Claiming professional writers don't care what they put forward and that they are incompetent because you disagree with some of their literary choices is unnecessary and inflammatory.

 

The book ending was a series of illogical deux es machina events relying on the fiction that Rand's ta'veren status crossed the entire world across multiple months to excuse any bad writing.

1. There were multiple prophetic warnings from different places in the world at different times about the Shadow attacking the EOTW.  Note that these had to be prophetic since the Forsaken were still trapped in their prison so hadn't planned the attack when the warnings happened.  Also, this is the only time in the whole series where there were multiple instances of the same prophecy.  In all other circumstances, prophetic visions/dream visions/Min's visions were only viewed by one person.

2. All these multiple warnings just happened to reach Moiraine who decided that the vague warnings were so dire/time sensitive that they needed to use the deadly Ways to get to the EOTW immediately.

3. They chased after the EOTW even though Moiraine had already been there and couldn't find it twice. 

4. There just happened to be a Ogier available so they could take the Ways.

5. She decided to go even to prevent a Shadow attack even though their group consisted of one contemporarily strong (but historically weak) Aes Sedai, one outstanding fighter, a proto-dragon who didn't even know he could channel, two untrained fighters, and two untrained (so useless), but potentially powerful channelers.

6. She took the whole group to the EOTW to face the Shadow attack instead of leaving Eg and Nyn or sending them to Tar Valon.  She risked the death of future channelers for no value against the Shadow.  If we think that she knew that Rand was the dragon, she risked the two other ta'veren for no value against the Shadow. 

7.  The EOTW arrived just when they were about to die in the Blight.  

8.  How did Arg and Balt, just after escaping their 3000 year captivity, know about the EOTW since it was created after their captivity.

9. Arg and Balt arrived at the EOTW at the exact same time as our heroes.  An hour or two either way would have prevented the fight.

10. Why did Arg and Balt attack the EOTW anyway?  They weren't affected by the taint, so they didn't need the pool of pure saidin (even if they knew it was there).

 

Since the book ending was so problematical, Jordan must not have known what he was doing and didn't care about the quality. 

[MasterAblar]

Robert Jordan went very heavy in the first book with the whole the Wheel weaves as the wills idea. Nearly every thing you said is Moiraine justifying it by thinking this is what the wheel is pointing them towards, and trusting that they must trust in their fate. Which doesn't make it fine obviously but it is an explanation, as transparent as it might be.

 

I don't recall about Egwene and Nyneave really (maybe Min's vision was brought up? Not sure), but she wanted Rand, Mat, and Perrin all there because they were very powerful ta'veren, and even their passive pressence would have a considerable impact.

 

Arriving at the Eye perfectly on time isn't suprising, since it's specifically supposed to be about need. Makes sense they would arrive there when they need it most.

 

Aginor and Balthamel attack the EOTW because its a way for them to be free of the Dark One. They were only free of the taint so long as the Dark One allowed them to be. Which is why later when saidin is cleansed, one of the female Forsaken points out that they must be worried the Dark One will no longer trust them as much since they aren't reliant on him.

 

 

 

Anyway the ending of the first book is all over the place regardless. I still enjoy it of course but its hardly his finest work. It's still significantly more satisfying then episode 8 that said. I can't hold some things too much against the show without knowing the effect Covid had on the filming. So things like the combination of the Shienarans being mostly useless, and Amalisa wiping out all (or most, whatever) of the trollocs I'm dissapointed with but can't judge too harshly. Same with Mat not being there and the blight's lackluster appearance (in my opinion). However the horn coming out of nowhere, Perrin being all around useless, Lan being completely absent, and Rand not giving a considerable show of (uncontrolled) power after breaking the seal I definitely hold against it. The last is particularly egregious what with the buildup they gave to how powerful the Dragon Reborn will be. Adaptation or not, thats just poor payoff to me.

 

I actually like the overal structure of the episode (yes even Rand not appearing at the battle), but the execution left a lot to be desired sadly.

 

[DojoToad]

9 hours ago, expat said:

What I find ironic is that if the book EOTW had a different finish and the show filmed the book ending, we would hear the exact same criticism.  I seriously disliked episode 8, but for every problem with it, the original book ending had an equal number.  Bluntly, the EOTW endings in both the book and the series sucked.  Claiming professional writers don't care what they put forward and that they are incompetent because you disagree with some of their literary choices is unnecessary and inflammatory.

 

The book ending was a series of illogical deux es machina events relying on the fiction that Rand's ta'veren status crossed the entire world across multiple months to excuse any bad writing.

1. There were multiple prophetic warnings from different places in the world at different times about the Shadow attacking the EOTW.  Note that these had to be prophetic since the Forsaken were still trapped in their prison so hadn't planned the attack when the warnings happened.  Also, this is the only time in the whole series where there were multiple instances of the same prophecy.  In all other circumstances, prophetic visions/dream visions/Min's visions were only viewed by one person.

2. All these multiple warnings just happened to reach Moiraine who decided that the vague warnings were so dire/time sensitive that they needed to use the deadly Ways to get to the EOTW immediately.

3. They chased after the EOTW even though Moiraine had already been there and couldn't find it twice. 

4. There just happened to be a Ogier available so they could take the Ways.

5. She decided to go even to prevent a Shadow attack even though their group consisted of one contemporarily strong (but historically weak) Aes Sedai, one outstanding fighter, a proto-dragon who didn't even know he could channel, two untrained fighters, and two untrained (so useless), but potentially powerful channelers.

6. She took the whole group to the EOTW to face the Shadow attack instead of leaving Eg and Nyn or sending them to Tar Valon.  She risked the death of future channelers for no value against the Shadow.  If we think that she knew that Rand was the dragon, she risked the two other ta'veren for no value against the Shadow. 

7.  The EOTW arrived just when they were about to die in the Blight.  

8.  How did Arg and Balt, just after escaping their 3000 year captivity, know about the EOTW since it was created after their captivity.

9. Arg and Balt arrived at the EOTW at the exact same time as our heroes.  An hour or two either way would have prevented the fight.

10. Why did Arg and Balt attack the EOTW anyway?  They weren't affected by the taint, so they didn't need the pool of pure saidin (even if they knew it was there).

 

Since the book ending was so problematical, Jordan must not have known what he was doing and didn't care about the quality. 

As 'bad' as the book ending was, the rest of the book was strong enough to carry us through to book two and a best-selling series.  For me, that was not the case with the show.  Very weak season culminated by a crappy finale.  S2 can still save the show but it needs to be way better.

Edited October 16, 2022 by DojoToad

[expat]

Quote

As 'bad' as the book ending was, the rest of the book was strong enough to carry us through to book two and a best-selling series. 

Agree that there was enough promise in the concept and execution of the first book to excuse its problems and read the second book.  Let's just not pretend that it was so flawless that changes for the series were inevitably bad which made all the writers evil hacks as some (not you) have said.

[expat]

Quote

Robert Jordan went very heavy in the first book with the whole the Wheel weaves as the wills idea. Nearly every thing you said is Moiraine justifying it by thinking this is what the wheel is pointing them towards, and trusting that they must trust in their fate. Which doesn't make it fine obviously but it is an explanation, as transparent as it might be.

"The wheel weaves as it wills" is a meaningless religious mantra.  It sounds good and soothes people enough that they can believe bad things are not their fault, but it doesn't give direction for people's actions.

 

Like reading religious books such as the Bible or Koran, each person brings their own knowledge, biases, and hopes to the words and interprets them how they want.  They don't tell you what to do tomorrow to fix your problems.

 

It's not like the wheel announced itself and told Moiraine, "I'm the Wheel and my weaving wills that you go the EOTW today through a very dangerous travel method and you must take the whole crew with you."

 

Quote

Aginor and Balthamel attack the EOTW because its a way for them to be free of the Dark One. 

Why would they want to be free of the Dark One?  The wanted to be Nae'blis which they could only do by being a servant of the Dark One.  Also, there wasn't enough saidin in the pool to permeantly escape the Dark One.  The pool didn't last one fight and they would have to assume they would be attacked by the other Forsaken at some point.

Quote

Arriving at the Eye perfectly on time isn't suprising, since it's specifically supposed to be about need. Makes sense they would arrive there when they need it most.

Need doesn't account for why Aginor and Balthamel arrived at the same time as our heroes.

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, expat said:

"The wheel weaves as it wills" is a meaningless religious mantra.  It sounds good and soothes people enough that they can believe bad things are not their fault, but it doesn't give direction for people's actions.

I would say, meaningless post-religious mantra.  I don't recall many clerical figures in the books much less houses of worship.  'The Wheel weaves...' is the equivalent of 'shit happens'.  Do you also consider that a religious mantra?

2 hours ago, expat said:

 

Like reading religious books such as the Bible or Koran, each person brings their own knowledge, biases, and hopes to the words and interprets them how they want.  They don't tell you what to do tomorrow to fix your problems.

 

It's not like the wheel announced itself and told Moiraine, "I'm the Wheel and my weaving wills that you go the EOTW today through a very dangerous travel method and you must take the whole crew with you."

I thought the WoT had many spiritual components but not much religion.  Don't recall a bunch of clergy in the books - or houses of worship.  I always thought Randland was post religious.  There were some left over mantras that meant little or nothing.  Kind of like we say 'bless you' when someone sneezes.  I think that the meaning has been lost or changed over the centuries.  But people still often respond with a thank you regardless of any religious feelings.

 

Religious texts, spirituality, chakras, meditation, auras, crystals, etc. are often part of fantasy and sci-fi.  It is part of the 'magic' of the world.  And it often gives motivation to the characters along with direction.  Even if 99% of the characters (or readers) think they're idiots.

[WhiteVeils]

19 hours ago, holger said:

I absolutely agree with the need for balance, but that does not necessarily need to happen in every season. We need to see it across the overall show. Some season finales will inevitably be limited to a small group of characters, or even individual characters (e.g. attack by the Seanchan on the White Tower). I expect Perrin to get a major solo hero moment in the S3 mid season event (battle for the Two Rivers).

 

I am not so sure about Perrin and Turak. Turak is a blade master, and killing him is Rand's main early sword fighting accomplishment. For Perrin to fight him, Turak would have to be redefined. Also, assuming Mat is together with Rand (and Perrin is in a separate group, with the Aiel), it would be logistically easier for Mat to take the horn, so he can blow it later, while Rand fights Turak. Perrin could have different activities in Falme, e.g. he may be involved in rescuing Egwene, perhaps together with the Aiel. Having the Aiel be involved in Egwene's rescue would help build trust between Egwene and the Aiel, which could lead towards Egwene's decision to go to the Waste in S3.

 

It doesn't need to happen every season...it obviously doesn't. Perrin and Mat don't get hero moments in S1.  But it does need to happen early enough that it's clear that they, as Ta'veran, are the equal of Rand, Egwene, and Nynaeve as Ta'veran.

 

Yes, Turak is a blademaster.  But honestly, how does becoming a blademaster alter the course of Rand's life? What inner change does it work in him or express in him? Frankly, how impressive is it compared to defeating the Foresaken?  

 

It isn't that important, to Rand.  It's great to see him use his father's sword, and it's nice that he earned the heron he's carrying around, but it's not comparable even to his greater hero moments in The Great Hunt, fighting Ishamael in the sky. THAT is what marks him as the Dragon Reborn to the world.  THAT is what really makes his arc.

Perrin getting established as a really good fighter before he returns to the Two Rivers is pretty important. He doesn't have magic that he can fight with, or even ancient memories that give him extra skill that he can surprise us with.  He just has natural size and strength, and the training he gets through Books 1-3.   But in Book 2 he is with a group of trained soldiers who can teach him, and, sounds like in the show, Aiel as well.  He will separate from those soldiers after S2 and be the teacher of combat skills, not the student.  That makes a big combat victory a real turning point.  It can make a good arc for him.  If the interviews are right, he's also going to be learning and growing into leadership with Ingtar, something else he'll need for returning to the Two Rivers.

Why does Rand need both moments, diminishing both, rather than splitting them up so Perrin actually gets something to do this Season?  Rand got a S1 big moment as well.  Perrin is important too.  The only reason not to give it to Perrin is 'just like the books'.  But the show needs to do more. 

[WhiteVeils]

7 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

However the horn coming out of nowhere, Perrin being all around useless, Lan being completely absent, and Rand not giving a considerable show of (uncontrolled) power after breaking the seal I definitely hold against it. The last is particularly egregious what with the buildup they gave to how powerful the Dragon Reborn will be. Adaptation or not, thats just poor payoff to me.

 

 

In the book finale of Book 1, Perrin is all around useless, Lan is pretty much completely absent, and while Rand does give a show of uncontrolled power (NOT related to breaking the seal), in the show breaking the seal /is/ a considerable show of uncontrolled power since the seal is cuendillar and cannot be broken, and Moiraine and Lan make that clear. 

Also Rand has plenty of time to show the slow escalation of his power. If he does all the big special effects in S1, he doesn't have anywhere to go.  Special effects budgets can only go so far.  This way there's plenty of room for more drama to go.

[Cauthonfan4]

18 hours ago, expat said:

What I find ironic is that if the book EOTW had a different finish and the show filmed the book ending, we would hear the exact same criticism.  I seriously disliked episode 8, but for every problem with it, the original book ending had an equal number.  Bluntly, the EOTW endings in both the book and the series sucked.  Claiming professional writers don't care what they put forward and that they are incompetent because you disagree with some of their literary choices is unnecessary and inflammatory

Yeah but the rest of EOTW was strong enough to make up for the lackluster ending of the book.

 

I cannot say the same for season 1 of the TV series. Not even close.

[expat]

Quote

I would say, meaningless post-religious mantra.  I don't recall many clerical figures in the books much less houses of worship.  'The Wheel weaves...' is the equivalent of 'shit happens'.  Do you also consider that a religious mantra?

The post I was responding to said that the concept of the "wheel weaves" was the catalyst for the trip to the EOTW.  My analogy to a religious mantra had nothing to do with Randland religious practices, so I can accept your description as "shit happens" as to what I was trying to get across.

 

It's a soothing saying, but it doesn't direct specific actions.

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, expat said:

 

 

It's a soothing saying, but it doesn't direct specific actions.

Lots of sayings don’t direct specific actions. In this case, the characters failed, didn’t have control, or didn’t foresee an outcome. So they shrug their shoulders and move on. Of course, ‘the wheel weaves’ can also apply to good things. When they don’t know how to respond, plug in a filler phrase…

 

Helps with those awkward silences when the unexpected occurs. 😁

[Sabio]

On 10/15/2022 at 6:57 PM, Skipp said:

 

There is alot of over laptop between the two books.  Do the wonder girls need to be kidnapped twice?  Does Rand need to Fight Ishamhel twice?  Do the groups need to split up only go end up in the exact same location twice?  There is certainly room for it to be trimmed here.  We know Mat is skipping his book two arc(what arc?), and just going for his book 3 arc. 

Actually the wonder girls got themselves captured 3 times, once book two and twice in book three.  It probably means all the other times the wonder girls managed to get captured/fall into a trap in later books will be cut also.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Sabio

[Skipp]

10 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Actually the woder girls got themselves captured 3 times, once book two and twice in book three.  It probably means all the other times the wonder girls managed to get captured/fall into a trap in later books will be cut also.

That is one take, but I can think of at least 3 times characters are captured that lead to big events and I don't think they will drop those.

 

Elayne and Nynaeve with Rhonda Macura(sp?) and the introduction of Forkroot.

Elayne and Nynaeve getting complused by Mogedian, being the introduction of a forsaken and compulsion in general.

Egwene turning the TV harbor chain into cuendillar leading to her imprisonment at the tower.

 

Maybe these won't be in the show but I think some variation of them will. All we can do is wafo.

 

And of course Egwene has already been captured once and we know she is going to be captured again in season 2 so its not like the writers are doing a one and done approach.

[Mailman]

23 hours ago, expat said:

 

9. Arg and Balt arrived at the EOTW at the exact same time as our heroes.  An hour or two either way would have prevented the fight.

 

They where looking for the Eye prior to the group arriving and could not find it. After Matt took the dagger inside they tracked the dagger not the Eye. They could not find the Eye till the group entered.

[Wassup]

Back to the teaser. 
 

At 0:34, is that Seanchan soldier holding a baseball bat?

Is he about to go Negan on Uno?

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Wassup

[Skipp]

28 minutes ago, Wassup said:

Back to the teaser. 
 

At 0:34, is that Seanchan soldier holding a baseball bat?

Is he about to go Negan on Uno?

 

Kneeling and being forced to swear the oaths? Is Uno the type to do that?  Also eyespy Perrin, Loial and Masema in the background there.

 

Also I believe the character in the front left in white is a da'covale.  In the full screen shot she has something covering her mouth that might be attached to a septum piercing.

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

That is one take, but I can think of at least 3 times characters are captured that lead to big events and I don't think they will drop those.

 

Elayne and Nynaeve with Rhonda Macura(sp?) and the introduction of Forkroot.

 

And be rescued by men?  That would be surprising...

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, Wassup said:

Back to the teaser. 
 

At 0:34, is that Seanchan soldier holding a baseball bat?

Is he about to go Negan on Uno?

 

Good capture!

 

• No insect head armor - at least not how I pictured it
• Definitely a baseball bat - wonder if they cgi something there
• So the dagger didn't do in the stunted ogier - wonder what's so scary about it?

[Skipp]

9 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Good capture!

 

• No insect head armor - at least not how I pictured it

Can't see it on the cropped posted image but the soldiers on the right seem to be of a different rank.  Their helm has an extended portion that certainly invokes an insect vibe. 

 

You can see it better in this image below.  There is a third image that is even better but I don't have it on hand.

 

 

[DojoToad]

8 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Can't see it on the cropped posted image but the soldiers on the right seem to be of a different rank.  Their helm has an extended portion that certainly invokes an insect vibe. 

 

You can see it better in this image below.  There is a third image that is even better but I don't have it on hand.

 

 

Agreed - funky praying mantis head.  Like it!

[king of nowhere]

seem less insectoid and more just evil, but the intended vibe - menacing and evil-looking - works.

[MasterAblar]

On 10/16/2022 at 7:50 PM, expat said:

Why would they want to be free of the Dark One?  The wanted to be Nae'blis which they could only do by being a servant of the Dark One.  Also, there wasn't enough saidin in the pool to permeantly escape the Dark One.  The pool didn't last one fight and they would have to assume they would be attacked by the other Forsaken at some point.

 

 

I don't mean free as in renouncing the shadow. I mean free as in they're not completely reliant on him when it comes to the One Power. They're Forsaken, they'd much rather not rely on anyone but themselves.

[MasterAblar]

22 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

In the book finale of Book 1, Perrin is all around useless, Lan is pretty much completely absent, and while Rand does give a show of uncontrolled power (NOT related to breaking the seal), in the show breaking the seal /is/ a considerable show of uncontrolled power since the seal is cuendillar and cannot be broken, and Moiraine and Lan make that clear. 

Also Rand has plenty of time to show the slow escalation of his power. If he does all the big special effects in S1, he doesn't have anywhere to go.  Special effects budgets can only go so far.  This way there's plenty of room for more drama to go.

 

Don't really agree, they all are together fighting their way to the Eye in the book. Lan in particular is very much at the forefront of the fighting. Its only when the Forsaken arrive that it all comes down to Rand (and at first Moiraine).

 

Regardless though the book is not the tv show. The book is almost exclusively from Rand's perspective, putting him front and center, so it makes sense that the ending is the same way. The tv show intentionally splits the pie up amongst the Two River characters far more than the book. They try to call back to Perrin's struggle with violence for a second but frankly it falls flat. Perrin's issue isn't defending himself, it's losing control of himself in the middle of the fight. That is what needed to be shown of him in the last episode.

 

As for Rand's show of power, to me it's simply not enough. It doesn't come across to me as some massive show of power that the show had been hinting the Dragon would be capable of. Especially considering the fact that he was using a Sangreal. To be clear I do like the confrontation between Rand and Ishamael, I just think its lacked at little oomph at the end. That, and I would have prefered if the conflict between Rand and Ishamael had been about Rand's identity and his struggle with being the Dragon Reborn, rather than focusing on Egwene, since the former has far more impact on Rand's character arc than Egwene ultimately does. It would have been an opportunity to bring in Tam as well. Like I said though I like the general idea of the confrontation.

[Wassup]

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

Can't see it on the cropped posted image but the soldiers on the right seem to be of a different rank.  Their helm has an extended portion that certainly invokes an insect vibe. 

 

You can see it better in this image below.  There is a third image that is even better but I don't have it on hand.

 

 

Do you think that is Turak in the middle?  He has the “nails” and is holding a sword.