Age of Legends cold open

[Nik]

I mean we're talking about AMoL Rand who'd already had his epiphany moment. He had access to way more LTT memories than when Asmodean was teaching him.

[Nik]

51 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

That's why Ishamaels treatise were wrong - he didn't realise that if the Dark One EVER broke the Wheel, then the Wheel was always broken. As we know the Wheel is not broken, then the Wheel can never actually be broken. 

 

Yes, it's simple math. Ishy wasn't a  very good philosopher 😂

[DojoToad]

32 minutes ago, Nik said:

I mean we're talking about AMoL Rand who'd already had his epiphany moment. He had access to way more LTT memories than when Asmodean was teaching him.

LTT blew it when sealing the DO.  So how does Rand having LTT's memories help him?

 

We're back to a world that is a shadow of its former self where much (most?) previous knowledge has been lost.  But a few young adults that studied real hard manage to accomplish what the towering intellects of the previous ages could not.

[Nik]

35 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

LTT blew it when sealing the DO.  So how does Rand having LTT's memories help him?

 

We're back to a world that is a shadow of its former self where much (most?) previous knowledge has been lost.  But a few young adults that studied real hard manage to accomplish what the towering intellects of the previous ages could not.

I think we've been over this a few times, none of us are saying they managed it through "studying real hard". If the reasoning we described doesn't make sense to you, that's of course fine. Plenty of things don't make sense to me in the books regardless of their in-world justifications. But at this point we're arguing in circles.

 

The original point was about the way LTT and LPD's disagreement was portrayed in episode 8. I agree with king of nowhere that the show version strikes a good balance of showing them disagreeing while still respecting one another enough to say, "okay, you do what you think is needed, and I'll do what I think is needed, and hopefully we'll keep the world from utter destruction in the process." They both made the best possible choice in the worst possible situation. Which wasn't much, but it was better than either of the alternatives which would have both gone even worse. Like I said before, I expect more about the war to be revealed as the series goes on to provide additional context for this initial introduction.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Nik

[Nassim]

So the series is called Wheel of Time. LTT isn't meant to seal the DO. He's meant to die and become Dragonmount where Rand is born. The keys to the two greatest sa' angreal were lost/destroyed before they could use them, and the female aes sedai at the time refused to help resulting in a partial seal with the backlash to saidin. The DO has to be partially sealed so Rand can fully seal him so the bore can happen again as the ages turn. Ishmael says they've had this battle countless times. And so it is.

[DojoToad]

27 minutes ago, Nik said:

I think we've been over this a few times, none of us are saying they managed it through "studying real hard". If the reasoning we described doesn't make sense to you, that's of course fine. Plenty of things don't make sense to me in the books regardless of their in-world justifications. But at this point we're arguing in circles.

 

The original point was about the way LTT and LPD's disagreement was portrayed in episode 8. I agree with king of nowhere that the show version strikes a good balance of showing them disagreeing while still respecting one another enough to say, "okay, you do what you think is needed, and I'll do what I think is needed, and hopefully we'll keep the world from utter destruction in the process." They both made the best possible choice in the worst possible situation. Which wasn't much, but it was better than either of the alternatives which would have both gone even worse. Like I said before, I expect more about the war to be revealed as the series goes on to provide additional context for this initial introduction.

I'm fine with the in-show explanation as you have laid out - the women and men both went their own way because they thought they were right.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that LTT, LPD, and their contemporaries were on such a higher level for working with the power, knowledge, technology, etc. as to almost be superheroes compared to Rand and his contemporaries.

 

So how do Rand and all the 'baby' Aes Sedai manage what those from the AoL could not.  I don't know that the books were completely satisfactory in that way, at least for me.  Maybe AoL Aes Sedai were blinded by their own power, knowledge, and most important their personalities and competitiveness.  The books alluded to that to some extent.  Maybe the ones that saw most clearly didn't have the sway needed to persuade the leaders?  Then again, the books may not have been as satisfying had it been more obvious.  I might be convincing myself that Jordan had it right all along...

 

I'm wondering how the show will tackle this.

[WhiteVeils]

Actually, though LTT's thoughts and the cleansing of Saidin helped Rand figure out how to trap the dark one in a bubble of the True Power, neither were the actual clue that made it possible and let Rand figure it out.  The actual clue was Callendor.

 

The prophecies all said Callendor was necessary to trap the dark one.  Not the Choden Kal.  So Callendor wasn't needed as a sa'angreal...there were more powerful ones than that.  Callendor was flawed.  It required men and women in a circle to use safely, just to start, so it /couldn't/ be used alone.  But it was also flawed because it could, once in a circle, take control of a channeler, compelling them to channel. This would ensure that no one would want to join a circle with it.  It could even force someone to channel the true power.  And it enhanced that true power.

 

But those flaws are what allowed Rand to take control of Moridin in order to create the glove of the true power that would protect from the taint.  Some unknown soul in the Age of Legends had actually figured out what must be done, and created Callendor to do it, but they didn't do it in time, or LTT didn't know about it, or something else stopped that plan from coming to fruition.  So whoever did figure it out left everything...Callendor, the prophesies, even the Eye of the World, in order to help the next Dragon achieve what LTT did not. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[Nassim]

5 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I'm fine with the in-show explanation as you have laid out - the women and men both went their own way because they thought they were right.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that LTT, LPD, and their contemporaries were on such a higher level for working with the power, knowledge, technology, etc. as to almost be superheroes compared to Rand and his contemporaries.

 

So how do Rand and all the 'baby' Aes Sedai manage what those from the AoL could not.  I don't know that the books were completely satisfactory in that way, at least for me.  Maybe AoL Aes Sedai were blinded by their own power, knowledge, and most important their personalities and competitiveness.  The books alluded to that to some extent.  Maybe the ones that saw most clearly didn't have the sway needed to persuade the leaders?  Then again, the books may not have been as satisfying had it been more obvious.  I might be convincing myself that Jordan had it right all along...

 

I'm wondering how the show will tackle this.

LTT was never meant to seal the DO completely. Their age is the age the bore is created. This is why he couldn't even if he was meant to.

 

1. The femal Aes sedai refused his plan and because of that the world broke, and survived. If the women had helped both halves of the source get tainted and the world is destroyed.

 

2. The access key for the two most powerful sa' angreal were lost/destroyed before they could use them. Their loss is what spurred LTT to finally act alone.

 

3. Callandor did not exist until after the breaking. And both its flaw of not having a buffer and it's ability to enhance the true source are critical for the end of Rands plan. 

 

4. LTT just isn't supposed to be that guy lol. It's the wheel of time. It's cyclical and his age was the age the bore is made. Rands is the age it's sealed. I imagine the next time the female half is tainted because of the way RJ was about balance. 

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, Nassim said:

LTT was never meant to seal the DO completely. Their age is the age the bore is created. This is why he couldn't even if he was meant to.

 

4. LTT just isn't supposed to be that guy lol. It's the wheel of time. It's cyclical and his age was the age the bore is made. Rands is the age it's sealed. I imagine the next time the female half is tainted because of the way RJ was about balance. 

Guess I'm having trouble with LTT couldn't do it despite knowledge and power because he was destined not to.  But Rand could do it despite two years of minimal training and knowledge because that was his destiny to complete.  Not a book or show problem, I guess.  Just trying to wrap my mind around it.

[Nassim]

Just now, DojoToad said:

Guess I'm having trouble with LTT couldn't do it despite knowledge and power because he was destined not to.  But Rand could do it despite two years of minimal training and knowledge because that was his destiny to complete.  Not a book or show problem, I guess.  Just trying to wrap my mind around it.

LTT had 0 clue there would be backlash that would taint saidin, and he would never use the True Source to block that rebound IF he even knew about it because it's the DOs power. And Callandor didn't exist. It was LTT losing that taught Rand how to win. Rand simply knowing about the backlash gave him the advantage LTT never had. Because they COULD seal him and did, they could have with both halves of the power, not known about the taint and doomed the world. To be effective LTT would have to know about the taint ahead of time. And have callandor, and be able to trap a strong forsaken using the true power with callandor to block the back stroke.

[DojoToad]

38 minutes ago, Nassim said:

LTT had 0 clue there would be backlash that would taint saidin, and he would never use the True Source to block that rebound IF he even knew about it because it's the DOs power. And Callandor didn't exist. It was LTT losing that taught Rand how to win. Rand simply knowing about the backlash gave him the advantage LTT never had. Because they COULD seal him and did, they could have with both halves of the power, not known about the taint and doomed the world. To be effective LTT would have to know about the taint ahead of time. And have callandor, and be able to trap a strong forsaken using the true power with callandor to block the back stroke.

Thanks for this explanation.  Sure would get you frustrated with the whole cyclical nature of life though.  What's the point???

[SilentRoamer]

6 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Thanks for this explanation.  Sure would get you frustrated with the whole cyclical nature of life though.  What's the point???

 

You have arrived at the position of Ishamael. The question is - do you now want to break the Wheel?

Remember as well that LTT was very arrogant - this was tempered somewhat by Rands humble upbringing. 

 

I think Nynaeve would switch you if she heard "baby" Aes Sedai. 🤣

[DojoToad]

14 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

 

You have arrived at the position of Ishamael. The question is - do you now want to break the Wheel?

Remember as well that LTT was very arrogant - this was tempered somewhat by Rands humble upbringing. 

 

I think Nynaeve would switch you if she heard "baby" Aes Sedai. 🤣

Damn - I'm siding with a Forsaken?!!

 

Let's break the Wheel and see what happens next.  I want off this carousel. 

[SilentRoamer]

24 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Damn - I'm siding with a Forsaken?!!

 

Let's break the Wheel and see what happens next.  I want off this carousel. 

 

Here lies the rub and the source of Ishamaels confusion and his petulance. (Ishy is basically a Wizard Goth who has read too much Nietzsche.

 

If the Wheel at any point in the future is ever broken, then it has always been broken. The fact it is not yet Broken, means it will never be broken. 

 

I am afraid this Carousel never ends. We have turtles all the way down.

 

🤣 I actually love Ishys little Philosophical rages, I bet him and Lews Therin had some epic debates in the Hall of Servants with the Nine Rods of Dominion just being like "really guys? We had to do this existentialist rubbish again? well me and the partner have a Jo-Taxi en route and we're heading into the Ways for some chill time"

[WhiteVeils]

Even if LTT had reason to suspect there was a slim chance that there would be backlash on Saidin, the situation might have been such that that was a risk that he was willing to take under the dire circumstances, where Latra was not willing to take it.  Not that Latra's plan (the Chodan Kal) would have worked any better!  Until the certainty of the need was there because the taint had come, they wouldn't have known for sure how to go about solving the problem with tainting Saidin in order to create Callandor. Absolute ignorance of the possibility isn't necessary for LTT to take the risk. 

[SinisterDeath]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

So how do Rand and all the 'baby' Aes Sedai manage what those from the AoL could not.

Same reason Nynaeve figured out how to heal stilling.

Aes Sedai in the AoL weren't all knowing. They didn't know as much as they believed they did. The idea that "Authority" doesn't know as much about the topic they believe they are experts in, is very much a running theme within the WoT novels.

AoL Aes Sedai attempted to turn channeling into a science. Thru experimentation, they felt they knew exactly how it worked, and what it's limits were. They were wrong. It isn't an exact science, and the rules like to change.

[DaddyFinn]

9 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Same reason Nynaeve figured out how to heal stilling.

Aes Sedai in the AoL weren't all knowing. They didn't know as much as they believed they did. The idea that "Authority" doesn't know as much about the topic they believe they are experts in, is very much a running theme within the WoT novels.

AoL Aes Sedai attempted to turn channeling into a science. Thru experimentation, they felt they knew exactly how it worked, and what it's limits were. They were wrong. It isn't an exact science, and the rules like to change.

Forsaken constantly mentioned how odd it was that the third Age channelers came up with new weaves that AoL channelers hadn't even thought of or thought were impossible.

[Elder_Haman]

18 hours ago, DojoToad said:

RJ may have said it. But doesn’t make much sense to me.

The bore could not be properly sealed in the AOL because that’s not the way the pattern of the age works. 
 

Rand was able to succeed because that’s the necessary outcome in the Third Age. 

[DojoToad]

39 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The bore could not be properly sealed in the AOL because that’s not the way the pattern of the age works. 
 

Rand was able to succeed because that’s the necessary outcome in the Third Age. 

I'm starting to get that, but I don't like it.  😡

 

Or at least I need to adjust my thinking to the cyclical nature of Randland.  I always glossed over that part in my readings, was aware but didn't care.  Now you all are making me go deeper, dammit!! 

[A Memory Of Why]

I'm thinking Rand has a talent that LTT didn't. Being able to channel both halves of the source when leading a multi gendered circle. It's not related to Calandor as he also did it at the cleansing.

[Andra]

12 hours ago, DojoToad said:

How complete was Rand's access if  he still needed Asmodean to teach him?  And the books went to great lengths on multiple occasions to emphasize how much information had been lost by both Aes Sedai and in general society.  I'm still not buying that a bit of research by Rand, Min, and Herid plus some input from LTT got Rand to a better place than the knowledge from the AoL.

By the Last Battle, Rand's access was complete.  Rand had LTT's memories in their entirety because he had given up fighting LTT and pretty literally merged the two into one.  When Asmodean was teaching him, that wasn't remotely the case.  There was some "leakage," but it wasn't in any way useful to him at the time.

Except insofar as Rand's surprising tidibits from that leakage kept Asmodean honest, by not knowing which of the things he was teaching turned out to be things Rand already knew.

 

10 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

Maybe it required a Tav'eren in order for the exact circumstances necessary to become necessary. Also was Mashadar and Shadar Logoth completely understood during the AoL? I would argue probably not.

Considering that neither of them existed until more than a thousand years after Lews Therin's death, I would certainly argue they didn't understand them then.  😉

 

---

 

One of the things we know from Rand/LTT explaining at Merillor why they almost lost the War of Power (which is why the issue of resealing the Bore came up in the first place) is that, though they knew more about the One Power in the AoL, they were ignorant about a whole lot of other things.

 

They had forgotten war, so they didn't have a clue how important the command structure was in order to win one.  They knew so much about the Power that they believed there was nothing else to learn.  Which is why the Forsaken were so frequently shocked by things like the Warder Bond or the Aiel practice of "unraveling" weaves to prevent them from being traced.

 

Lews Therin hadn't understood back then the danger in touching the Dark One with the Source.  But he learned it the hard way.  At the same time, no one in the Third Age understood that this was what caused the Taint (rather than the "backblast" or "counterstroke" as it was commonly described).  It took knowledge from both Ages - including Min and Herid's research - to finally do it right.

[Andra]

7 hours ago, Nassim said:

2. The access key for the two most powerful sa' angreal were lost/destroyed before they could use them. Their loss is what spurred LTT to finally act alone.

 

3. Callandor did not exist until after the breaking. And both its flaw of not having a buffer and it's ability to enhance the true source are critical for the end of Rands plan. 

A couple of points:

There were at least two pairs of Access Keys created.  One was lost or destroyed (hence the broken remnant in the Panarch's little museum) but the other wasn't.  The Aes Sedai knew the Aiel had one pair, which ended up in Rhuidean.  Their existence was eventually forgotten when the White Tower lost contact with the Aiel, but the Aes Sedai during the Breaking certainly knew where they were.

 

We know from Rand's vision in Rhuidean that Callandor existed before the Aiel were sent away.  It is seen on the table in the Hall of Servants along with some other famous artifacts.  It was created at some point during the War of Power.   We don't know exactly when, but there's no specific reason to believe Lews Therin didn't know about it.

[Nik]

I believe one of the Aes Sedai in that Rhuidean vision had the foretelling. She's the one who told them what needed to be done (make the Eye, what to do with Callandor, protect the Aiel)

[Elder_Haman]

4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Now you all are making me go deeper, dammit!! 

Mwahahahahaha. Only now, at the end, do you grasp the depth of my sinister plan. 

[Andra]

4 hours ago, Nik said:

I believe one of the Aes Sedai in that Rhuidean vision had the foretelling. She's the one who told them what needed to be done (make the Eye, what to do with Callandor, protect the Aiel)

Yep.

She just couldn't tell them WHEN.