Food in Fantasy or Where are They Hiding the Food Replicators

[Spiritweaver1]

I am sorry everybody but watching E7 brought back old memories and I have to rant.  I would  be very interested in thoughts from the community.

 

First of all in the TEOTW book when the gang comes out of the waygate and ride towards Fal Dara they start passing deserted farms.  It turns out everybody is evacuated to the city.  In the show there is nothing and it looks like a desert around Fal Dara.  So my question is where does their food come from?  Did the Vulcans come and give them replicator technology?  In days of yore, there had to be lots of farms around cities to feed the inhabitants.  You don't have airplanes to fly apples from New Zealand.  This is a common failing of fantasy.  Of course TLOTR made the same mistake.  Minas Tirith was the same as Fal Dara except better rendered.  A large city with not  a farm visible in that giant plain.  And don't get me started on Edoras.  When I first laid eyes on that city I thought I was hallucinating.  That was the cheapest depiction of a capital city ever.   No sign of animals for food or plowed fields.  Nothing. A few huts and a palace so small guest  had to sleep in the banquet hall.   And looking out over the land around  the  city, vast sweeps of nothing for two days ride in any direction.  In the books Tolkien was silent on food production of course.  i guess everybody imported their food from the shire.   

 

This is why I love the books and believe RJ's world building is second to none.  He covers the smallest details.  For example in the books they use chamber pots to handle human waste.  I dare say we won't have a mention of that topic on the show.  It is those details that make a world and those living in it come to life.  If Amazon wants a world class fantasy they better pay attention to the details in all aspects.  RJ provides the details and if they will just allow the source material to guide them the show will be able to create the best fantasy ever.   I so want that!!!

 

[MasterAblar]

Personally I don't really need chamber pots to have much of a presence. I can assume people can do their private business.

 

Also I have it on good authority that borderlanders eat rocks for food.

[JaimAybara]

My guess would be they want those pure landscape shots visually without a bunch of buildings. I do think a walk through an orchard or something would be nice. I was honestly waiting to see Rand and Mat meet Almen but they cut Caemlyn. They could have been passing farmland on the way there, and it would have the really nice reference to food later in the series too. 
 

*But I do agree, even  Frodo and Sam walked through corn fields and Merry and Pippin get into farmer Maggot’s crops.*

Edited December 18, 2021 by JaimAybara

[Jaysen Gore]

Some writer (Rothfuss maybe) had one of his characters say that dwelling on these kinds of things, or the weather, isn't usually germane to the story, so you can mentally insert different kinds of weather, food, and personal grooming where you think best. 

 

I get what your saying, but I don't want to see anyone walk through the fields of Minnesota for an hour, just so I know Randland has enough food to eat And if someone is sitting in the garderobe, he better be about to be shot with a crossbow by his dwarf of a son.

[Skipp]

Minor nitpick but Fal'Dara isn't the capital of Shienar, that wold be Fal'Moran where the King resides.

 

But yeah while it would be nice to see more farms and realistic things I don't need to actually see them.  Just like I don't need to see the entire contents of our hero's packs.  I just assume they have the supplies necessary.

[Jaysen Gore]

4 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Minor nitpick but Fal'Dara isn't the capital of Shienar, that wold be Fal'Moran where the King resides.

 

But yeah while it would be nice to see more farms and realistic things I don't need to actually see them.  Just like I don't need to see the entire contents of our hero's packs.  I just assume they have the supplies necessary.

Heh. except when they leave them behind like Rand and Moiraine do in episode 7

[Skipp]

12 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Heh. except when they leave them behind like Rand and Moiraine do in episode 7

Hence I assume they have enough for the journey

[VooDooNut]

5 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Hence I assume they have enough for the journey

Or neither of them thinks they're coming back from TEOTW, hence no need for much supplies...☠️

 

(btw I expect both Moiraine and Rand to survive the trip, and get "unexpected" backup from the rest of the group.)

[Spiritweaver1]

21 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Minor nitpick but Fal'Dara isn't the capital of Shienar, that wold be Fal'Moran where the King resides.

 

But yeah while it would be nice to see more farms and realistic things I don't need to actually see them.  Just like I don't need to see the entire contents of our hero's packs.  I just assume they have the supplies necessary.

I never said Fal Dara is the capital of Shienar.  I was talking about Edoras which is the capital of Rohan in TLOTR.   I don't care for hours walking through farms as well and I appreciate the difficulty of editing out anachronisms if you try and merge in footage of modern farms.  Yet it wouldn't have been too much to plow up some fields or render it in the VFX.

 

In regards to the packs with food that was another problematic issue.  I didn't see one of them pulling out food and suppliers from their saddlebags and stuffing their pockets.  No  food water, no nothing.  in the show they were going to spend a day in the ways.   Paying attention to detail is what separates great from merely okay.  I appreciate that most of the community here gets their food from stores so nothing seems amiss.  As one who has spent weeks in the wilderness no gear no joy.  It doesn't cost anything to do it right.

 

As far as assuming goes that is a great thing but why show any trollocs you just assume they are there?

 

 

[Skipp]

My mistake, I thought you reference Fal'Dara when you were talking about Edoras.

 

Can someone correct me but isn't the Fortress of Fal'Dara and actual fortress and not a CG rendering?  Like certainly the fortress was rendered into the location of the Gap(which is a place in the Canary islands if I recall).

[Storeebooq]

I've noticed these things, but like with most other fantasy shows, have to just suspend my critique. 

My assumption is that like production and acquisition of food, human biological functions (*cough*), and other daily activities have to just be assumed, to make way for the plotline and visual effects. 

 

At least we get more details in the books. We even have the hero's preparing and gathering food items along the way often, at least in the start of the series. We do have unrealistic issues with food later on. I've seen break down of estimates of the sizes of some of the armies and groups of folks

Spoiler

(like the Rebel Aes Sedai)

and how much food they would actually need and waste they would produce, and how it was actually not logical with how it was written in the books. These kinds of things single handedly contributed to the failure of wars and armies in our own history. 

 

[MasterAblar]

Yeah the actual logistics of those Napoleonic Wars sized armies are definitely handwaved in the books. They usually are in fantasy though.

[ArrylT]

I've often wondered if channeling could (like a food replicator) create food.     One thing I like about Modesitts fantasy is he does take the food into account in his stories, and there is in fact one world where creating things magically (Imager) takes a major strain on you.    However I have never been that bothered by the lack of accuracy when depicting where food comes from on TV.    Quartermasters are underappreciated though.

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

This is why I love the books and believe RJ's world building is second to none.  He covers the smallest details. 

I wouldn't call "where does the food come from" a small detail. Seeing a big city in the middle of wildland makes me wonder.

I already raised this topic in the previous weeks, though i didn't think to start a thread over it.

 

it's not even hard to do. they did CGI cities, adding some wheat fields around instead of wilderness shouldn't be too hard?

unfortunately, it seems a failure of all fantasy on screen. they show big majestic landscapes, and apparently they think cultivation would look ugly.

But it's one of those sillyness I can tolerate. it's everywhere, and it's easy to pretend it's not.

[Guest Cranglevoid]

8 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I am sorry everybody but watching E7 brought back old memories and I have to rant.  I would  be very interested in thoughts from the community.

 

First of all in the TEOTW book when the gang comes out of the waygate and ride towards Fal Dara they start passing deserted farms.  It turns out everybody is evacuated to the city.  In the show there is nothing and it looks like a desert around Fal Dara.  So my question is where does their food come from?  Did the Vulcans come and give them replicator technology?  In days of yore, there had to be lots of farms around cities to feed the inhabitants.  You don't have airplanes to fly apples from New Zealand.  This is a common failing of fantasy.  Of course TLOTR made the same mistake.  Minas Tirith was the same as Fal Dara except better rendered.  A large city with not  a farm visible in that giant plain.  And don't get me started on Edoras.  When I first laid eyes on that city I thought I was hallucinating.  That was the cheapest depiction of a capital city ever.   No sign of animals for food or plowed fields.  Nothing. A few huts and a palace so small guest  had to sleep in the banquet hall.   And looking out over the land around  the  city, vast sweeps of nothing for two days ride in any direction.  In the books Tolkien was silent on food production of course.  i guess everybody imported their food from the shire.   

 

This is why I love the books and believe RJ's world building is second to none.  He covers the smallest details.  For example in the books they use chamber pots to handle human waste.  I dare say we won't have a mention of that topic on the show.  It is those details that make a world and those living in it come to life.  If Amazon wants a world class fantasy they better pay attention to the details in all aspects.  RJ provides the details and if they will just allow the source material to guide them the show will be able to create the best fantasy ever.   I so want that!!!

 

There's a chamber pot under Nynaeve's bed in the latest episode.

 

Edit: typo

Edited December 19, 2021 by Cranglevoid

[DaddyFinn]

7 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

 

In regards to the packs with food that was another problematic issue.  I didn't see one of them pulling out food and suppliers from their saddlebags and stuffing their pockets.  No  food water, no nothing.  in the show they were going to spend a day in the ways.   Paying attention to detail is what separates great from merely okay.  

 

 

 

 

Each of them had a big bag on their backs. Surely there's food and water in those?

[JaimAybara]

I just want to add that this conversation about supply chains and the attention to detail for cities and troop movements is so on brand for the WoT fandom, it’s amazing and I love it. Definitely something I’d point out to some of my friends and they would say, “oh my god dude, a witch and a samurai are fighting goblins and you’re giving me a thesis on the supply chain / imports and exports of the Two Rivers?” So, thank you everyone haha. I love this. Keep it coming. I’ll add, it would have been cool to see actual sheep that weren’t dead in an open field or a tabac field maybe too in episode 1.   They are definitely subtle background touches but worthy of note for future seasons when the world literally stops producing necessities. Perhaps if Caemlyn is in season 2 they can sneak some of this type of stuff in? 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

4 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

I just want to add that this conversation about supply chains and the attention to detail for cities and troop movements is so on brand for the WoT fandom, it’s amazing and I love it. Definitely something I’d point out to some of my friends and they would say, “oh my god dude, a witch and a samurai are fighting goblins and you’re giving me a thesis on the supply chain / imports and exports of the Two Rivers?” So, thank you everyone haha. I love this. Keep it coming. I’ll add, it would have been cool to see actual sheep that weren’t dead in an open field or a tabac field maybe too in episode 1.   They are definitely subtle background touches but worthy of note for future seasons when the world literally stops producing necessities. Perhaps if Caemlyn is in season 2 they can sneak some of this type of stuff in? 

On that point how does the economy of the two rivers work now that they have "health brushed" the tabac side of things out?  Yes wool was a major economic factor before cotton etc overtook it but it has less potential for money raising than a luxury good and the two rivers hardly has a monopoly on it.   England dominated the European wool trade in the middle ages until the reformation due to the efforts of the monasteries  (large flocks, selective breeding, quality control).  

 

12 hours ago, ArrylT said:

I've often wondered if channeling could (like a food replicator) create food. 

channeling is certainly used to preserve food but this only simplifies storage and seasonal variation rather than increasing supply.  It can make plants grow better (e.g. Elaida's out of season rose garden) but it is not clear that the gain in food grown matches the effort if put into general use.

Spoiler

AOL had non-channeling cropsinging which did pay off.

However the only really large armies in the books before traveling made supply issues simpler were the Aiel and an army composed entirely of persons skilled at foraging in a much harsher environment can manage on very little as long as they keep moving (as could armies of expert foragers such as Napoleon's troops until the Spanish guerrilla and Russian total war scorched earth policies exposed the problems with that approach). 

[Padmehlc]

I seem to remember that in the books the land around cities in the borderlands was clearcut for a considerable distance so that they had a better view of everyone coming to help against Trolloc attacks. Perhaps the waygate is just inside the cleared zone. Farms there were also more fortified and would be on the side of the fort away from the gap, not closer to it than the main defense (fort) as they depended on them for a measure of protection. We didnt see much travel through inhabitted areas but where we did there was some indications of farms in the background - not as clear as they all could have been but Im hopeful for more when we get out of the wilderness for the majority of the time.

[Sabio]

It could also be since the Waygate is now so close to Fal Dara and Fal Dara has been moved so close to the blight.  They wouldn't want farmers living that close to the blight.

 

Anyone else notice everything is a days walk from everything else?  A days walk to the Eye, a days walk to the waygate exit, not sure if Fal Dara was a days walk or not.  Just seems anywhere they need to go is just a days walk.

 

I mentioned in Episode 6 they didn't seem to take supplies, they had small bags but nothing you would expect for a possibly long journey.  I don't need to see all the supplies, I'm more of a Lan says grab your gear from the horses we may have a long journey sort of person. it's simple and explains alot.  Since they sent away the horses pretty quick, in the book they would have been described as taking their saddle bags etc.  They were told after the the mounts were sent off that the horses wouldn't survive. So you would think at least one of the group would have been like WTF Lan my food was still in my saddle bags.  You could of at least asked if we had everything first.  I mean poor Mat, his horse was sent away and then he decided not to go.  Now the poor guy has to walk back.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Sabio

[Elder_Haman]

3 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

On that point how does the economy of the two rivers work now that they have "health brushed" the tabac side of things out?

They didn’t. Tons of people were smoking in E1. It’s clear tabac is still part of the picture. 

[AdamA]

Cities, even desert cities, could exist without being surrounded by farmland. They just need to import the food from somewhere nearby enough to not spoil, or eat almost all grain and salted meat that doesn't spoil as fast. King's Landing in Game of Thrones illustrated this pretty well. No nearby farms, but there were more or less constant wagon trains coming in from the Reach and the Riverlands that had food, and of course the port.

 

Feeding the armies is a much bigger deal. RJ really doesn't address it, either. The 200,000 plus spears Rand brings with him out of the Waste raises a lot of questions. First, how'd that many people even survive in the Waste in the first place? But second, the only realistic way to sustain that many people moving through Cairhien and Andor and what not would be to utterly ravage those countries and take all their food. Credit again to Game of Thrones (at least the first four seasons) for that, I guess, as they actually show the ranging armies raiding every farm they pass by, even the "good guy" armies. The Expanse has been great about this as well, with much of the plot being driven by the politics of food production.

 

Off-topic, but my wife and I both work for the US DoD and IC, and have done a lot of tech development in classified environments, and it was supremely gratifying to see in The Expanse a more or less correctly marked classified document, complete with portion markings and a basically accurate banner (only difference to today being the 'X1' declassification period caveat goes in its own dedicated block today and not in the banner). It is really a joy watching that show to see the dedication to realism and attention to detail, even with things that they know almost none of the audience will have any familiarity with.

[JaimAybara]

4 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

On that point how does the economy of the two rivers work now that they have "health brushed" the tabac side of things out? 

Was this actually stated by Rafe? Cuz I saw tons of people smoking pipes in the Winespring Inn. And I always enjoyed how Lotr totally leaned into the Longbottom leaf. Also, Talmanes in the books has a couple pipes that become extensions of himself in a pretty significant way so I hope we get that. 

[Jaysen Gore]

My head canon for smoking in fantasy is that when it's "pure" tobacco, it doesn't have anywhere near the amount of carcinogens of modern cigarettes, and it is not as potent a drug, so it's much less harmful.

 

It's like how all their beer are actually organic craft ales and stouts without all those nasty preservatives. And hard alcohol - even wine - is much less prevalent (a couple of small casks of brandy here, some hard cider there, some oosquai from the Aiel, but nothing like modern society), even if our seer was pounding them back at work. And they all work physically more, which helps process it. Of course, some fat lord is going to have gout from drinking too much wine but that's how you know he's debauched and evil.

[WheelofJuke]

Definitely appreciate the OP!

 

Supply chains and food production matter greatly in a story like Wheel of Time. RJ speaks often of such things, although not exhaustively.  He definitely leaves himself some wiggle room, but takes a decent stab at detailing such things. 

 

My understanding of Fal Dara was it bordered the Gap and Blight, and thus was more geared towards a war outpost than an actual functioning city. That's why the Gap would be so important strategically...if it's breached then the supply lines behind Fal Dara most likely are cut off and the city becomes besieged. 

 

While the Gap holds, supply lines could easy function on the N/S road to (IIRC) Fal Moran? (spellings, sorry)

 

Additionally, storehouses/cellars could store much food, and provided a water source inside the walls, a substantial amount of terrace or container sort of gardening could help supplement food diversity. Salted meats, hardtacks, and such things can last a very long time, especially in colder climes as in the Borderlands.