Why Do they keep acting as if the dragon reborn can be female?

[MasterAblar]

9 minutes ago, dwn said:

 

As for Moiraine, it's worth noting that while she was gone for 8 books (and was hardly in AMoL), those books only covered a few months in-world. If the timeline is smoothed out and reorganised, Moiraine could disappear at the end of one season and return at the end of the next.

 

 

Quick look at the chronology says she was gone 9-10 months.

 

Regardless there's a lot events that happen between Moiraine's "death" and her return, to many to show in a single season, and they culminate in Rand's ephinany on Dragonmount. I don't see how you have Moiraine be present for that considering the impact her dissapearnce had on him.

Edited December 14, 2021 by MasterAblar

[WOTReader2]

17 minutes ago, dwn said:

I don't really understand why this topic is so divisive. All they've done is expand the original mystery of who is the Dragon Reborn to give some foreground focus to other characters. Aside from losing the symbolism of three, does it really matter?

 

As for Moiraine, it's worth noting that while she was gone for 8 books (and was hardly in AMoL), those books only covered a few months in-world. If the timeline is smoothed out and reorganised, Moiraine could disappear at the end of one season and return at the end of the next.

 

Also, it's highly likely the plot quagmire of the later books meant Moiraine was absent far longer than RJ originally intended--which necessitated the out-of-nowhere introduction of Cadsuane. And while I'm one of the few who like Cadsuane as a character, her role could be merged with Moiraine's, should Moiraine return sooner.

 

Here is a question: do you think having five candidates makes it a better story than having three candidates?

 

If your answer is no, does that not mean that the change was completely pointless and a waste of time? I think so, but it is more than that for me. I think bringing in the idea of five candidates and having women being potential candidates has actually harmed the story. 

 

Firstly, I think it has caused a major issue with establishing that the Dragon Reborn is a feared being. They have failed to actually make this point in the story, and a major reason is because they cannot tie the Dragon Reborn with the male madness and breaking of the world. Now, they have had to make up that 'The Dragon Reborn may ally with the Dark One' to get around this. That is boring compared to 'The Dragon Reborn breaking the world.'

 

The other issue is that having more candidates makes it far harder to write. You could build three legitimate claimants with the time they have, but five is too much and has led to a lot of rushing. Rand has done nothing; Perrin just got some gold eyes; Matt has a thing for daggers. The actual non-candidates in the book (Egwene and Nynaeve) get far more building than these three. The lack of action from Rand, in particular, has made it obvious to a lot of non-book readers, also.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by WOTReader2

[Joe B]

On 12/11/2021 at 10:09 PM, Storeebooq said:

I can't recall if it was books, or from RJ interviews, but it was stated that in the past turnings of the wheel, there had also been women Dragons. Just that, in the books, the current turning of the wheel's Dragon was tied to Lews Therin, who happened to be a man. 

 

 

Nevermind. I wan't caught up with the post.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Joe B
Not needed.

[Chadouken]

Mandarb should be the Dragon Reborn ??

[DigificWriter]

18 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

You mean like Sean Bean in season 1 of GoT?

 

No.

 

Game of Thrones and the development process for that series is not in any way similar, based on what I can find, to the development process for Wheel of Time, which, as outlined by all available documented evidence, was expressly conceived as a television series to feature Moiraine as the primary main character and tell the story of the WoT novels through her.

 

The Shannara Chronicles did something similar, making Allanon the primary main character and funneling the show's narrative through him even though/when the story itself wasn't directly his.

 

Additionally, Titans has also done this, funneling all 3 of its primary storylines to date through Dick Grayson even though said storylines were not about him.

[dwn]

10 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Quick look at the chronology says she was gone 9-10 months.

 

Regardless there's a lot events that happen between Moiraine's "death" and her return, to many to show in a single season, and they culminate in Rand's ephinany on Dragonmount. I don't see how you have Moiraine be present for that considering the impact her dissapearnce had on him.

 

Sure, a lot of important events happen, but Moiraine returning early wouldn't impact very much except Rand's arc. So long as she's gone long enough that Rand can 1) learn to stand on his own, and 2) start really going off the deep end, I think it could be made to work. At the very least her return could be handled better than it was in AMoL.

 

[fra85uk]

14 minutes ago, Chadouken said:

Mandarb should be the Dragon Reborn ??

 

Classic male horse saviour!

[Elder_Haman]

12 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

as outlined by all available documented evidence, was expressly conceived as a television series to feature Moiraine as the primary main character

But this is where you're wrong. She wasn't conceived as the main character for the whole series. Merely the character through whom audiences would be introduced to the world of the Wheel of Time.

 

She cannot be the main character. She is gone for more than half of the books.

[Raezold]

38 minutes ago, dwn said:

And while I'm one of the few who like Cadsuane as a character, her role could be merged with Moiraine's, should Moiraine return sooner.

 

Heresy!

[Masha]

On 12/12/2021 at 6:02 AM, EmreY said:

I'm confused.  Does the Dragon re-incarnate once or over and over again?

The Dragon reincarnates over and over again just not in every Age but when he is needed. RJ wasn't clear that a Dragon is always a male except that situation with Lews Therin made next Dragon guaranteed to be male. 

[MasterAblar]

12 minutes ago, dwn said:

 

Sure, a lot of important events happen, but Moiraine returning early wouldn't impact very much except Rand's arc. So long as she's gone long enough that Rand can 1) learn to stand on his own, and 2) start really going off the deep end, I think it could be made to work. At the very least her return could be handled better than it was in AMoL.

 

 

Sure they could rearange Mat's story line in order to get him to rescue Moiraine sooner, but why would she stay away from Rand then? And if she doesn't what does she do? Just seems odd to me to have her in the show but not have her really do much just hang around to say hey we still have this really good actor on here.

 

I don't know maybe they can come up with a way to do it convincingly but it seems uneccesary to me.

[Ralph]

23 minutes ago, Chadouken said:

Mandarb should be the Dragon Reborn ??

He already is

[dwn]

13 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

 

Here is a question: do you think having five candidates makes it a better story than having three candidates?

 

If your answer is no, does that not mean that the change was completely pointless and a waste of time? I think so, but it is more than that for me. I think bringing in the idea of five candidates and having women being potential candidates has actually harmed the story. 

 

 

I don't think it makes the mystery better or worse, but it does help show more of Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Nynaeve, who are equally important characters whose plot arcs will diverge from Rand's in the coming seasons.

 

13 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

The other issue is that having more candidates makes it far harder to write. You could build three legitimate claimants with the time they have, but five is too much and has led to a lot of rushing. Rand has done nothing; Perrin just got some gold eyes; Matt has a thing for daggers. The actual non-candidates in the book (Egwene and Nynaeve) get far more building than these three. The lack of action from Rand, in particular, has made it obvious to a lot of non-book readers, also.

 

In the books, by the time they've entered the Ways in Caemlyn Rand really hadn't done much either, beyond survive. I honestly don't see much difference between the books and the show in this regard.

[KakitaOCU]

19 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

No.

 

Game of Thrones and the development process for that series is not in any way similar, based on what I can find, to the development process for Wheel of Time, which, as outlined by all available documented evidence, was expressly conceived as a television series to feature Moiraine as the primary main character and tell the story of the WoT novels through her.

 

The Shannara Chronicles did something similar, making Allanon the primary main character and funneling the show's narrative through him even though/when the story itself wasn't directly his.

 

Additionally, Titans has also done this, funneling all 3 of its primary storylines to date through Dick Grayson even though said storylines were not about him.

Weird, because I can't find "All the documented evidence" saying Moraine is THE main character.  I can see a lot of her as the protagonist for season 1.  I see a lot about choosing to follow her PoV more than the others to hide who the DR is and to explore the world a bit more.   Nothing saying "Moraine is the Primary Main character for the entire series."  Could you provide a citation please?

PS, Shanarra started with Elfstones, Allanon IS the main character in that one.  Or rather one of two.  He's the one who sets Wil on his quest, he's the one who stands as the head of the Elven army and he's the one who takes out the leader of the demon army.

I remember season 1 of GoT and hadn't read the books yet,  It very much screamed as a Sean Bean series.  So much that since I watched season 1 blind I actually didn't see his death coming.

[dexterryu]

Unless they actually change it, I think this will be a moot discussion in about 9 days assuming they don't do some annoying cliffhanger.

[MasterAblar]

6 minutes ago, Masha said:

The Dragon reincarnates over and over again just not in every Age but when he is needed. RJ wasn't clear that a Dragon is always a male except that situation with Lews Therin made next Dragon guaranteed to be male. 

 

I posted this further back in the thread, but it was actually quite clear in interviews that the Dragon is always male:

 

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='dragon soul'

 

However other Heroes could serve to fulfill the same role the Dragon does in other ages/turnings.

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, dwn said:

 

In the books, by the time they've entered the Ways in Caemlyn Rand really hadn't done much either, beyond survive. I honestly don't see much difference between the books and the show in this regard.

 

Rand hadn't achieved any more in the book than he has in the show at this point, that's true. Main difference right now is that we don't see Rand struggle with his identity like he does in the books. So they're gonna have to do a fair bit of catch up once they finally drop the DR mystery.

Edited December 14, 2021 by MasterAblar

[dwn]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Sure they could rearange Mat's story line in order to get him to rescue Moiraine sooner, but why would she stay away from Rand then? And if she doesn't what does she do? Just seems odd to me to have her in the show but not have her really do much just hang around to say hey we still have this really good actor on here.

 

I don't know maybe they can come up with a way to do it convincingly but it seems uneccesary to me.

 

I agree it's not a trivial change, and it would require Moiraine take on at least part of Cadsuane's role. However, thinking like a show producer--and like a book reader when Caddy first appeared in ACos--why replace the mentor/advisor character with a different one part way through?

 

(Everyone complains about Perrin's plotline, but Mat spends more than 4 books in Altara. Surely that can be rearranged a bit.)

[DigificWriter]

Using specific terms like "lead" and following internal industry practices like explicitly naming her and only her in the official logline, seeking out actresses for Moiraine before looking to cast any of the other roles, and listing Rosamund Pike as the very first person on all cast sheets are all pretty direct signals that the WoT TV series was developed as an adaptation with Moiraine at its center even though the story is not directly hers. 

 

Each of these things were also done with The Shannara Chronicles, Swamp Thing, and Titans.

 

I could end up being wrong, but at this point see no indications that I am.

Edited December 14, 2021 by DigificWriter

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, dwn said:

 

I agree it's not a trivial change, and it would require Moiraine take on at least part of Cadsuane's role. However, thinking like a show producer--and like a book reader when Caddy first appeared in ACos--why replace the mentor/advisor character with a different one part way through?

 

(Everyone complains about Perrin's plotline, but Mat spends more than 4 books in Altara. Surely that can be rearranged a bit.)

 

Mergin Moiraine and Cadsuane is the only feasible way of keeping Moiraine with Rand, but man would I dislike it. I'm not a great fan of Cadsuane but her character is very different to Moiraine', and going from 

 

- Rand is very distrustful of Moiraine but eventually comes to rely on her

 

to

 

- Moiraine dies devastating Rand and effecting his character for the rest of the series

 

to

 

- Moiraine show back up not that long after, does a 180 on her dynamic with Rand eventually leading to Rand nearly ending everything

 

I'm not sure how that would turn out honestly.

[Chadouken]

2 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Using specific terms like "lead" and following internal industry practices like explicitly naming her and only her in the official logline,  isting Rosamund Pike as the very first person on all cast sheets, and seeking out actresses for Moiraine before looking to cast any of the other roles are pretty direct signals that the WoT TV series was developed as an adaptation with Moiraine at its center even though the story is not directly hers.

 

I'd say this is true for the first, and maybe even second seasons.  She is top billed.

 

But this will change as Rand takes center stage and becomes the lead after a couple seasons.

[WOTReader2]

19 minutes ago, dwn said:

 

 

I don't think it makes the mystery better or worse, but it does help show more of Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Nynaeve, who are equally important characters whose plot arcs will diverge from Rand's in the coming seasons.

 

 

In the books, by the time they've entered the Ways in Caemlyn Rand really hadn't done much either, beyond survive. I honestly don't see much difference between the books and the show in this regard.

That is the thing, though, if it doesn't make it better, what is the point? Considering time is limited, every moment that is used and every use of 'or her' is a waste of time. 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Most people will probably miss it on the first read, but he does use the one power in the book (lightning blows up the Inn) before Caemlyn. 

 

But, in the end, Eye of the World is not actually a mystery book. It is pretty obvious from the start who is the Dragon Reborn, and it never really tries to hide it. The TV series is different by making the mystery a focal point, and it needs to give more signs to make it more difficult to tell between them. This would be easier with only three candidates. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by WOTReader2

[TheDreadReader]

5 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

That is the thing, though, if it doesn't make it better, what is the point? Considering time is limited, every moment that is used and every use of 'or her' is a waste of time. 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Most people will probably miss it on the first read, but he does use the one power in the book (lightning blows up the Inn) before Caemlyn. 

 

 

It is probable that many people missed Rand channeling already in the show too.

 

Especially, if you don't already know that Rand is a channeler.

 

[dwn]

8 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

Most people will probably miss it on the first read, but he does use the one power in the book (lightning blows up the Inn) before Caemlyn. 

 

But, in the end, Eye of the World is not actually a mystery book. It is pretty obvious from the start who is the Dragon Reborn, and it never really tries to hide it. The TV series is different by making the mystery a focal point, and it needs to give more signs to make it more difficult to tell between them. This would be easier with only three candidates. 

 

In the books Rand uses the power to wash away Bela's tiredness even before that (and goes loopy in Baerlon because of it). In the show he uses the power to break open the door to escape from Dana.

 

The identity of the DR isn't a mystery for the reader, but it most definitely is for the characters.

Edited December 14, 2021 by dwn

[TheDreadReader]

1 minute ago, dwn said:

(and goes loopy in Baerlon because of it).

 

Rand seems in good spirits after Shadar Logoth and Mat notices it. 

 

"What's that?"

"Downhill!"