Why Do they keep acting as if the dragon reborn can be female?

[Jason_bwood]

on the subject of "gender locking" of souls I remember that one of the foresaken is a woman in the books but had been a man previously so it is not outside the possible

[DojoToad]

50 minutes ago, EmreY said:

I'm confused.  Does the Dragon re-incarnate once or over and over again?

I win again Lews Therin 

[MasterAblar]

All souls reincarnate over and over. The heroes of the horn are special in that they will often relive similar live I believe (but not always) and they spend their off time in the dreamworld where they remember all of their lives.

 

The dragon soul is very particular in this turning because his is the only soul (at least in the context of the books story) whose reincarnation has prophecies announcing it.

 

As for the female dragon question, it was answered several times by RJ so I’ll just link the interview database:

 

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='dragon soul'

 

Short answer is: no the Dragon is always male because the Dragon soul is male.

 

Long answer: if the wheel needs someone to fulfill the role of the Dragon but it needs to be female, then the wheel will weave in a female hero (perhaps one specifically, perhaps whichever one is needed depending on the situation) tied to the horn.

 

Essentially the idea is that in another turning, Rand/LTT’s soul might not be the adversary Dark One, but that in this turning (and in countless other’s) it is. In other words you could easily have a very similar story to the one in the books but with gender’s switched around. The souls however, would not be the same.

Edited December 12, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Bruan]

10 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

we know the gitra moroso foretelling (if they didn't change it from the books).

but did she specifically said "right now"? sure, she pretty strongly implied it, but aes sedai should know what to make of pretty strong implication.

and so moiraine and siuan think they understood the gitara foretelling right, but - when confronted by someone who seem like a good fit - they have doubts. maybe we misunderstood? maybe there's some other subtle meaning that we missed?

after all, the prophecies are full of cryptic stuff.

“The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is comming! He is Comming!”

 

Seems pretty ‘right now’ to me. (Also gender specific, but what do I know).

[king of nowhere]

3 minutes ago, Bruan said:

“The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is comming! He is Comming!”

 

Seems pretty ‘right now’ to me. (Also gender specific, but what do I know).

yes, it seems pretty "right now" to me too, and even to moiraine and siuan.

but can you absolutely rule out every alternative?

 

it is wise to have doubt. only the fools never doubt what they know

[Bruan]

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, it seems pretty "right now" to me too, and even to moiraine and siuan.

but can you absolutely rule out every alternative?

 

it is wise to have doubt. only the fools never doubt what they know

Well, I’d imagine much more than ‘seems’ would apply. If it was more ambiguous, it would have to be ‘the dragon will take his or her first breath on dragonmount’ or something similar.
 

I’m also not sure, but nothing leads me to believe an Aes Sedai can say untrue words even during a fortelling. if it was more ambiguous in its wording, I could see some uncertainty. But Moraine can be fairly certain they are looking for a male of a specific age who was born in a specific place.

[DojoToad]

58 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, it seems pretty "right now" to me too, and even to moiraine and siuan.

but can you absolutely rule out every alternative?

 

it is wise to have doubt. only the fools never doubt what they know

I don't doubt that they will change the language if the foretelling is in the show.

[fra85uk]

"...takes his (or her) first breath..."

"He (or She) is comming …"

[Ralph]

Hoping we find out next episode, together with the Tam Tigraine scene

[Apoc81]

2 hours ago, Jason_bwood said:

on the subject of "gender locking" of souls I remember that one of the foresaken is a woman in the books but had been a man previously so it is not outside the possible

That wasn't reincarnation though, it was punishment.

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, it seems pretty "right now" to me too, and even to moiraine and siuan.

but can you absolutely rule out every alternative?

 

it is wise to have doubt. only the fools never doubt what they know

Then it's not a prophecy from a Dreamer, but the ravings of a mad woman.

[Apoc81]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, it seems pretty "right now" to me too, and even to moiraine and siuan.

but can you absolutely rule out every alternative?

 

it is wise to have doubt. only the fools never doubt what they know

No. There is absolutely no ambiguity in the books. The Dragon is, and can only be, male. Because og the taint, he will either break the world, or bind it.

 

At no point did Jordan say that the Dragon could come from Saidar. Its directly tied to men who channel, and was in every turning. This is very, very clear to all of the educated characters in the books.

[DigificWriter]

What happened in the novels with regards to the reincarnation of the Dragon is irrelevant with regards to the TV series because, as I noted, the show has eliminated the idea of souls being gender-locked.

 

In both an AMA that he did on Reddit and in an interview with io9, Rafe specifically talks about the show's approach to reincarnation, not just of regular souls, but of the Dragon's soul:

Quote

I think—well, I can’t tell you all of them, but in the books, there’s an idea that if you’re born as a man in one life, you’d be born as a man in the next life in the show. We’re not doing that. We’re approaching it as you are a soul and you move through different bodies through whatever life that you’re in. So that’s one. It’s a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series, and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we’ll continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today.

 

Quote

I think the idea that the Dragon Reborn doesn’t necessarily need to only be a male character, that’s really important. We see that play out in a number of different ways through the season. Also, as we learn, some of the Dragons of the past were women. How was that different? How did that affect the world? So that one change that we’ve made, it really does flutter through the whole series. I think it’s good to make changes like that and to put them in the show, even if it does have those effects.

 

 

[WOTReader2]

I'm not a fan. 

 

Firstly, I think the failure to make the Dragon Reborn strictly male has impacted the idea that the Dragon Reborn is supposed to be feared. It has still not been established that the Dragon Reborn is a terrifying being for the people of the world. If a woman can be the Dragon Reborn, that kills off the idea.

 

I know they have tried to do the 'they will either fight him or join him' to get around this, but that is not the reason in the book. They fear the Dragon Reborn because they think he will break the world, again. This obviously does not work with a female dragon.

 

I think also bringing five possible suspects has destroyed any form of mystery. Three people would have created a much tighter narrative and would have allowed time to show signs for Perrin, Rand, and Matt. It would have been far harder to guess. At this moment, everyone I know who has watched series, but not read the books, has guessed it is Rand. 

[Yojimbo]

18 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

What happened in the novels with regards to the reincarnation of the Dragon is irrelevant with regards to the TV series because, as I noted, the show has eliminated the idea of souls being gender-locked.

 

In both an AMA that he did on Reddit and in an interview with io9, Rafe specifically talks about the show's approach to reincarnation, not just of regular souls, but of the Dragon's soul:

 

"we’ll continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today."

 

A couple of things.  First, the fact that he has gone and said this publicly tells me that, as remote a possibility as it is, he could throw a curveball and have a female DR (or the dreaded multi headed DR).   Anyone saying there is no possibility of this must then conclude that Rafe was just screwing with the fandom.  Not a good look either way.

 

Second, I have seen numerous people severely admonished on this forum for giving their opinions on how Jordan might feel about the show and they have no right to say what they think Jordan would think or say about the show (and I agree, we can never know how he would feel).  And yet here Rafe is, saying that this is what HE thinks Jordan would want.   If fans are wrong and arrogant to make such assumptions, then Rafe is equally wrong and arrogant.   And by starting with that arrogant assumption he has in fact disrespected the source material.  

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

A couple of things.  First, the fact that he has gone and said this publicly tells me that, as remote a possibility as it is, he could throw a curveball and have a female DR (or the dreaded multi headed DR).   Anyone saying there is no possibility of this must then conclude that Rafe was just screwing with the fandom.  Not a good look either way.

 

Second, I have seen numerous people severely admonished on this forum for giving their opinions on how Jordan might feel about the show and they have no right to say what they think Jordan would think or say about the show (and I agree, we can never know how he would feel).  And yet here Rafe is, saying that this is what HE thinks Jordan would want.   If fans are wrong and arrogant to make such assumptions, then Rafe is equally wrong and arrogant.   And by starting with that arrogant assumption he has in fact disrespected the source material.  

1) he and Josha have both clearly said Rand is the Dragon

2) "hopefully" is not an assumption. And therefore not disrespect

Edited December 12, 2021 by Ralph

[Yojimbo]

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

1) he and Josha have both clearly said Rand is the Dragon

2) "hopefully" is not an assumption. And therefore not disrespect

Then 1) he is screwing with the fandom by stating the DR could be female.  Very nice.  And 2) all we have to say to not be admonished is to say I think HOPEFULLY that Jordan would think Rafe is a hack writer who has no understanding of what made these books so great and we're cool, right?  Great.

[2RiversFan]

4 hours ago, The Purple Ajah said:

Does anybody have a quote that proves that souls are "gender-locked" from Robert Jordan? I can't really find a quote from the books that definitively proves such a thing. The only RJ quote I have found on the matter seems to indicate that it might be true for the Dragon, but not all individuals.

For clarity/ease:

 

INTERVIEW: 2011

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

DARTH ANDREA (20 JANUARY 2011)

Odd question, is it possible in the WoT universe, for there to have been a world where the Dragon was a woman?

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 JANUARY 2011)

RJ said that gender was a 'soul attribute.' Meaning, souls were reborn as the same gender.

FOOTNOTE

RJ addressed this in the CNN chat of 2000, again in Leiden in 2001, and at an unknown signing from around the same time (maybe a different report from the Leiden signing).

 

TAGS

rand, dragon soul,

Thanks to @MasterAblar for providing the link... I just found the first, most relevant entry for the question posed.

[DigificWriter]

Even if the show keeps the identity of the Dragon Reborn homogenous with the novels, Rafe makes it clear that we will see onscreen evidence of the metaphysical change that was made with regards to the gendering of souls by talking about past Dragons having been female.

 

Anyway, this has gotten 'into the weeds' a bit, so to pull it back, the broader point is that saying that the Dragon Reborn could potentially be female isn't merely a misdirection, even if the show doesn't actually change the Dragon Reborn's identity, because it is a tangible manifestation of broader show lore about the nature of souls.

[The Purple Ajah]

Thanks for the link! Yeah, you do have to go digging for it, and it's something that appears to be only in ancillary / unpublished stuff for now.

 

As for the other Dragons, I'm assuming that people are talking about Logain's comments? I am pretty sure that at this point, his perception of what the "Dragons" actually are is incorrect, and that they are either manifestations of madness or his own past lives (who would not be Dragons, since he is a False Dragon). The only Dragon that has been referenced so far is Lews Therin, and if the First Age did have a Dragon (equivalent) I'm not sure that anyone would be able to remember who that was?

[MasterAblar]

4 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Even if the show keeps the identity of the Dragon Reborn homogenous with the novels, Rafe makes it clear that we will see onscreen evidence of the metaphysical change that was made with regards to the gendering of souls by talking about past Dragons having been female.

 

Anyway, this has gotten 'into the weeds' a bit, so to pull it back, the broader point is that saying that the Dragon Reborn could potentially be female isn't merely a misdirection, even if the show doesn't actually change the Dragon Reborn's identity, because it is a tangible manifestation of broader show lore about the nature of souls.

Yeah, I’m rather confused as to how that will come up to be honest. The only people who would remember incarnations of the Dragon that predate LTT would be the heroes of the horn and they barely show up with the notable exception of Birgitte. 
 

Only other way I would see for it to be brought up is through Rand madness, but I would really dislike any changes there, as the conflict between Rand and LTT is incredibly important.

 

To be honest, the nature of souls is itself rather irrelevant to the series. The only person it matters for is the Dragon Reborn and since that will be Rand, I’m having a hard time seeing what the point of the change was.

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, The Purple Ajah said:

Thanks for the link! Yeah, you do have to go digging for it, and it's something that appears to be only in ancillary / unpublished stuff for now.

 

As for the other Dragons, I'm assuming that people are talking about Logain's comments? I am pretty sure that at this point, his perception of what the "Dragons" actually are is incorrect, and that they are either manifestations of madness or his own past lives (who would not be Dragons, since he is a False Dragon). The only Dragon that has been referenced so far is Lews Therin, and if the First Age did have a Dragon (equivalent) I'm not sure that anyone would be able to remember who that was?

There are other clues, such as Arangar, as well as Birgitte saying that her and her husband are always reborn together in the same circumstances. But no one in the books ever straight out says that souls are gendered, simply because it’s never relevant. Even the Dragon Soul has lives where he doesn’t fulfill any great purpose so for the most part souls have little importance in the story. 

[The Purple Ajah]

Rand does have the most screen time of all the Emond's Field Five, and in fact out of every character sans Moiraine.

 

While I do love the Eye of the World, there is a basic fact that it holds out the mystery of who the Dragon is until the very end, while 80% of the POV is of the perspective of the main character. If they did keep that mode of storytelling from the Eye of the World, especially in an incrementally released television show, I wonder if book fans / new readers would instead be lambasting the writers for setting up "the worst twist on television" by presenting the Dragon's identity as a mystery while making it extremely obvious from the get-go to an increasingly genre-savvy viewership.

[JenniferL]

I just removed about half the posts in this thread for off topic bickering. If y’all are still interested in this thread, please stick to the topic. Otherwise I’ll close it and you can go about your business. Thanks. 

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

Then 1) he is screwing with the fandom by stating the DR could be female.  Very nice.  And 2) all we have to say to not be admonished is to say I think HOPEFULLY that Jordan would think Rafe is a hack writer who has no understanding of what made these books so great and we're cool, right?  Great.

1. No. He is saying in the metaphysics of the World, not that it might be. 

 

2. Yes, absolutely. If you say I believe... I would have no problem with that.

I object to when people say "RJ must be rolling in his grave," "Harriet has clearly sold out her husband's legacy for the money, bc it is impossible... " "only a tool would watch after the first ten minutes without believing it is...", "it is objectively proven that it is rubbish and agenda driven"