Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[TheDreadReader]

6 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

I doubt a non-book reader knows what an Ogier is, even after seeing him. 

 

What do they need to know about Ogier in this episode other than he talks funny, likes books, and looks weird?

 

 

[Scarloc99]

27 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

That's all well and good but they have 7 seasons before that is a factor for Rand, and 2-3 before its a factor for Lan. They could have spent that valuable time on the actual main characters. The way they introduced Loial was extremely rushed, and I doubt a non-book reader knows what an Ogier is, even after seeing him. Rand literally runs out of the room after they talk for 20 seconds. Did this episode really need three funerals?

By episode 5 Rafe has hit the following key story beats. 

All the main characters that need to be at Tar Valon are there, or nearly there, including Loial

Mat has the Dagger (only important because of the wound it causes) 

Shadar Logath is explained (only important because it cleanses the taint)

Logain has been gentled (and this has been shown not told, unlike the books) 

The Warder Bond is explained in a way that will resonate to audiences, and this story line has also explained the politics of the tower, introduced Liandrin who will obv be the key Aes Sedai Antagonist early on. 

We know that Peririn has a link to Wolves and more importantly he knows this

We know Fades, Trollocs and Darkfriends exist and are def evil 

Thom has gone missing presumed dead (and we know he is pretty handy with a knife) 

The world has also been expanded out more in a way RJ was not good at doing, he wrote lots of descriptor about the world and one off rituals but, I have no idea from all the books what an Aes Sedai or Warder Funeral looks like (and there are plenty of opportunities to show them in the books). I have been shown something new, and I like that, I like I am continuing to learn more about the world than I knew from the books. 

A like for Like adaptation doesn't surprise me, it doesn't engage me an adaptation that shows me new things about the world I already know so much about from the books while also letting me experiance the things I know in a new way is what I was looking for, and it is what I am getting. 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Sir_Charrid

[Sabio]

I don't think there was a set Aes Sedai/Funeral.  Since many nations had different customs it seemed like where ever that individual came from that would be the custom of the funeral.  Rand was shocked when he saw the Intgar's group bury the Shinearian DF"s in the ground.  Loial had to explain the Shinear custom.  Adding a Aes Sedai funeral for a minor character seems wasteful.

 

I don't hate all of Rafe's changes, but when you have only 8 episodes to deal with changes like the Aes Sedai funeral etc seemed to eat up alot of time.  Too much is spent on minor things and just seems like not alot of time is being spent to make us care about the main people.

 

Shadar Logoth was way too fast, very underwhelming and Perin's wolf thing hasn't really been explained at all except as a diversion to make one think he might be the dragon.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

I don't think there was a set Aes Sedai/Funeral.  Since many nations had different customs it seemed like where ever that individual came from that would be the custom of the funeral.  Rand was shocked when he saw the Intgar's group bury the Shinearian DF"s in the ground.  Loial had to explain the Shinear custom.  Adding a Aes Sedai funeral for a minor character seems wasteful.

 

I don't hate all of Rafe's changes, but when you have only 8 episodes to deal with changes like the Aes Sedai funeral etc seemed to eat up alot of time.  Too much is spent on minor things and just seems like not alot of time is being spent to make us care about the main people.

 

Shadar Logoth was way too fast, very underwhelming and Perin's wolf thing hasn't really been explained at all except as a diversion to make one think he might be the dragon.

What does a longer Shadar Logoth scene look like really, what does it add to the actual story? Them sitting in the city a bit longer, Mat taking longer to walk to the knife? or maybe dragging out the escape longer? The scene did exactly what was needed and we know it is going to be revisited when we finally get padin Fains flashback scenes. Maybe it adds a bit more excitement but it doesn't tell the viewer anything more then they already know, this place is bad, strange shadows live here. Other then flash backs I imagine it won't be revisited until Rand cleanses or as part of Fains story. 

Perrin's wolf aspect is being shown to the audience the same time as Perrin is learning about it, he doesn't really understand or accept it until later books, so he is about where he needs to be in terms of understanding for where the first book has reached. 

 

I get that for you the Aes Sedai funerals seemed pointless, but for none book viewers it added a bit of depth both to the world as a whole, and to the characters of Lan and Morraine, it also showed the Bond and the importance of it and explained that a warder can be bonded to another, but they don't usually want to after an aes sedai dies. Morraine also mentions that an aes sedai can remove a bond to Alanna, something we know will be really important in the last battle. Alanna also shows she is willing to take on another warder, again important to the story with Rand. Everything about this story thread is important to what comes later, and was done in a way that a none book reader will understand and remember. 

 

This is the most important thing the series is not being made for the book lovers, if we like it it is a bonus, but, it is fully accepted that however it is adapted Book lovers will be split over how they feel about it. This series needs ot be made for people who have never read the books, who don't know they even exist. It needs to grab their attention and make them engaged and from the non book readers I have spoken to episode 5 did that really well. So as far as Rafe and Amazon are concerned, job done. 

[Ralph]

This discussion is going on on several different threads, and has become totally repetitive. 

 

I would summarise as follows :-

 

There are several reasons for changes, and most contributors accept all of them can apply to a certain extent. 

 

1) Show not tell. Especially considering that in a book every thought of the POV can be used to develop info the reader needs to know much later, and in the show all of this has to be show somehow from an external observer POV, without it feeling like exposition. 

 

2) Time constraints. In a season of eight hours to cover one book (and it may get worse in future seasons), you have to cut a lot to fit everything in. 

 

3) Budget. Things like Loial's height, Warders' cloaks, have explicitly been traced to this. 

 

4) Modern viewpoint. Some contributors are not willing to allow this at all. Personally I understand why they have done it with regard to gendered souls, and see it as necessary re Aran'gar, Tylin, and some others. I would accept this to a certain extent, but would be annoyed if I felt it was done to fit an agenda. I don't see any sign of that atm, though I know many have. I think those people have jumped to 4) rather than 1)&2), and suspect some of them were predisposed to think so. 

The argument that you can't change anything bc that is not the story, or bc it is fictional anyway, I don't understand at all. Besides which it is clear to me that RJ did it himself. 

 

I think most people accept that all of these reasons can be valid, and are often necessary. 

All the disputes are regarding the application of these reasons and when they are really necessary. 

 

5) Some are saying that the story itself needs changing, and others are seeing the same and therefore outraged by RJII's presumption. I am not convinced I have yet seen any of this yet. Every change I have seen I believe can be based on 1-4, and BS has said so too. 

That said, I wouldn't be shocked if there were some small instances of this, and it wouldn't put me off. 

 

6) Those who are saying the team are useless and they don't care about the story don't deserve a response

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Ralph
Clarity

[WhiteVeils]

Going to go out on a limb and make a prediction:

Perrin is going to run into Bornhold while he and Egwene are fleeing Valda.  Desperate not to be returned to Valda, Perrin kills Bornhold in the ensuing fight.   Bornhold (and the Whitecloaks) do not appear at Falme (It never made sense they were there anyway).

[Gothic Flame]

3 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Bornhold (and the Whitecloaks) do not appear at Falme (It never made sense they were there anyway).

It did to Pedron Nial...(Toman Head)

[elteryon]

I don't think Perrin will end up killing a Whitecloak now. I think the scene with Egwene, Perrin, and Valda will serve as the centerpiece of that conflict going forward.

 

The death of Laila has transferred the hammer/axe conflict already. Now Valda has reason to suspect Perrin is a darkfriend, and knows Egwene can channel. Don't see that spending additional screen time furthers anything.

 

 

[Hobo]

16 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Going to go out on a limb and make a prediction:

Perrin is going to run into Bornhold while he and Egwene are fleeing Valda.  Desperate not to be returned to Valda, Perrin kills Bornhold in the ensuing fight.   Bornhold (and the Whitecloaks) do not appear at Falme (It never made sense they were there anyway).

I believe Pedron Niall sent Bornhald there to secure lands for the WC to have a land of there own.

[Gothic Flame]

10 minutes ago, elteryon said:

Don't see that spending additional screen time furthers anything.

You realize you may have further jinxed things?

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Hobo said:

I believe Pedron Niall sent Bornhald there to secure lands for the WC to have a land of there own.

Go further...Niall was hot for a reason.

[TheDreadReader]

14 hours ago, Sabio said:

But she actually went looking for Egwene and Perin first and didn't sort of go ohh they will get to Caemlyn sooner or later..  I have commented how little she seems to care a month has passed and all or some of the people she has been searching 20 years for could be lost or dead out in the wilderness.

 

Book-Perrin also still had his coin (and Nyneave's affinity for Egwene b/c of healing her) and therefore Moiraine could find them without looking too hard.   

 

Boils down to which is the better strategy get the easy stuff out of the way first or do the hard stuff first.

 

 

 

[2RiversFan]

51 minutes ago, Ralph said:

This discussion is going on on several different threads, and has become totally repetitive. 

 

I would summarise as follows :-

 

There are several reasons for changes, and most contributors accept all of them to a certain extent. 

I would characterize it as "MANY" contributors accept most or all of the changes.

I myself am trying hard to understand/accept the changes... but I find it very hard to accept upon first viewing.  Perhaps they have reasons for showing scenes not from the books, but they have to realize that we book readers have waited decades to see specific things on screen.

I am still watching and trying to understand many of the changes... but the next time they skip/leave off-screen an ICONIC moment from the books, I'll be done. 

 

Spoiler

They completely missed the importance that the Manetheren speech has on the rest of the Emonds Fielders' that shames them into realizing what was done for them and sets up their psyches for the defense of their village in tSR.

If the show skips the most important parts of the climax of EotW, such as Rand saving the Sheinarans at Tarwin's Gap, or drop the blowing of the horn and Falme's fight in the sky... I can't imagine I would give the show another two seconds of viewing time.  There's only so much that I can take. 

 

Of course it is different for everyone, but it is mis-characterizing it to say 'Most' have accepted 'All' of it.

Edited December 5, 2021 by 2RiversFan
Typos/clarity.

[etchambers202]

Question: do any of you think that the people who wrote the scripts have passed 6th grade writing class? Sorry but my 10 year old grandson could have written better ones. The whole series is a hot mess. In reality I think some egotistical good idea fairies said "Hey, we are way better writers than Robert Jordan could ever be, let's rewrite the whole series"

So very sad at how this has turned out. 

[Hobo]

1 minute ago, etchambers202 said:

Question: do any of you think that the people who wrote the scripts have passed 6th grade writing class? Sorry but my 10 year old grandson could have written better ones. The whole series is a hot mess. In reality I think some egotistical good idea fairies said "Hey, we are way better writers than Robert Jordan could ever be, let's rewrite the whole series"

So very sad at how this has turned out. 

I feel this. The show has gone off on a tangent and is unrecognisable from Eotw. I am trying to enjoy it. I am. But i will never forgive them for destroying Loial. 

[WhiteVeils]

37 minutes ago, Hobo said:

I feel this. The show has gone off on a tangent and is unrecognisable from Eotw. I am trying to enjoy it. I am. But i will never forgive them for destroying Loial. 

The more hyperbole that is used like "destroying Loial" or "10 year old grandson could have written better" and so on, the harder it is to take such posts seriously.  Loial was almost exactly like in the books, and many people have found the changes and scripts extremely well written and composed, especially the ones that are further away from the books. It kind of defangs any point your arguments might have made.

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, 2RiversFan said:

I would characterize it as "MANY" contributors accept most or all of the changes.

I myself am trying hard to understand/accept the changes... but I find it very hard to accept upon first viewing.  Perhaps they have reasons for showing scenes not from the books, but they have to realize that we book readers have waited decades to see specific things on screen.

I am still watching and trying to understand many of the changes... but the next time they skip/leave off-screen an ICONIC moment from the books, I'll be done. 

 

  Hide contents

They completely missed the importance that the Manetheren speech has on the rest of the Emonds Fielders' that shames them into realizing what was done for them and sets up their psyches for the defense of their village in tSR.

If the show skips the most important parts of the climax of EotW, such as Rand saving the Sheinarans at Tarwin's Gap, or drop the blowing of the horn and Falme's fight in the sky... I can't imagine I would give the show another two seconds of viewing time.  There's only so much that I can take. 

 

Of course it is different for everyone, but it is mis-characterizing it to say 'Most' have accepted 'All' of it.

Apologies if not clear

 

What I meant was most people accept that all the following reasons can apply and are valid. 

 

I should have concluded that where we are all differing is when the reasons are correct and when not

Edited December 5, 2021 by Ralph

[phoenixtrinity]

47 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

The more hyperbole that is used like "destroying Loial" or "10 year old grandson could have written better" and so on, the harder it is to take such posts seriously.  Loial was almost exactly like in the books, and many people have found the changes and scripts extremely well written and composed, especially the ones that are further away from the books. It kind of defangs any point your arguments might have made.

 

When Loial came on screen, I nearly screamed -- he looks and acts exactly how I pictured him.

 

Also, for those saying these writers didn't pass a 6th grade writing class, I think you vastly underestimate what happens in script writing. These shows are trying to appeal to as many people as possible, whether we (high-fantasy readers) like that. Most of my friends won't read WoT because it is "too complicated". They barely followed the politics in show GoT and mainly understood the explicit stuff (the sex and murder). With all due respect, most watchers don't care that the show writing is the way it is -- these are some of the same people who flocked to theatres to watch Maleficent and 50 Shades of Grey, which they are entitled to enjoy. It's the same reason 99% of movies (hyperbole here) have the same basic plot. Book readers are a small group comparitively.

 

All I'm saying is that this show isn't written just for "us". It's written for "everybody". I don't see that as a bad thing, because why not expose more people to the awesome world of WoT?

 

Furthermore, I am personally enjoying the writing and I am notoriously picky, as my husband will remind me. Hehe.

 

(Clarifying, WhiteVeil my post isn't targetting you, just building off of some of your comments! ?

Edited December 5, 2021 by phoenixtrinity
For clarity.

[DaddyFinn]

The writing has already given me several tears of joy and sorrow(in a positive way). More please.

[ArrylT]

Some Rambling and overly long Thoughts on S1 

 

I cannot speak for anyone else - but my interpretation & understanding of WOT comes down to 2 intertwined points that came across to me by the story.

 

Balance & Acceptance regardless of whom you were/are.

 

The  Last Battle would not have been won without the contribution of both men & women, and various cultures/societies/etc.  Rand Al'Thor could not have done it all on his own.

 

The Age of Legends was an era in Balance - people accepted each other for who they were regardless of gender, culture & financial status. 

 

Spoiler

In the Age of Legends, material wealth had come to mean virtually nothing, as the means existed by which virtually anyone could acquire it. Instead, an individual gained social stature, respect, and high office by means of their service to humankind. 

 

Without going into a long monologue I feel that RJ was trying to showcase that the 1st Age was an age dominated by men (our age), the 2nd Age was a balanced & diverse age, and the 3rd age is one that is somewhat dominated by women (although not to the same degree imo).   And it took the entire community (led by Rand) to win the Last Battle and only by accepting each others value & trust in their abilities did it succeed.   Which will hopefully bring about another Age where Balance and Diversity  matter more than what gender or nation you belonged to.

 

Now how does this tie in with the show?

 

I believe that they are trying to showcase the ways in which Women and certain traditions/cultures/societies currently have more power - but at the same time subtly hint at how better things are in balance, and when people work with each other and accept them as individuals.

 

Rafe I believe mentioned that the WOT helped allow for his family to understand and accept him as being gay.  https://www.avclub.com/heres-the-character-the-wheel-of-times-showrunner-is-dy-1848070804

Spoiler

“I think it speaks really highly of the series that a young gay teenager and his middle aged mom could read the book together and both find things that they both love in it.”

 

Take Nynaeve - early on in EOTW she goes on about how useless the Village Council is.    It is pretty obvious, to me at least, that she is also quite untrusting of Aes Sedai and doesnt suffer foolish men.

 

In Episode 4 though Nynaeve goes out of her way to give praise to the Warders and would rather spend time at their campfire than spend time either with the Red sisters or any specific Aes Sedai.    IE she rather judge people by who they are, than by their cover alone.  By Episode 5, she comes across, while not trusting, at least respectful of Moiraine (compared to their scenes in Ep1).  

 

In Episode 5 Stepin talks about how flawed he was as a person (using violence as the answer / death wish) and how after he met Kerene and they became friends.  Kerene, who became the Green Ajah Captain General, chose him as a Warder, despite his flawed past (and self doubts).   She helped him become a better person by believing in him.  Hhe says she forced him to become worthy but imo that means he wanted to be worthy and become proud of who he was (which was showcased in Ep 4).

 

And who is at the funeral - not just Warders, but also Aes Sedai & Nynaeve.   Hardly something I think that portrays Warders or men in a bad light.  If men were so useless or weak, they would hardly show a funeral of a male warder imo.    In fact I think Stepins funeral got equal focus to Kerenes despite the "argument" that she was not only Aes Sedai but the leader of the Green Ajah and thus could be portrayed as deserving of more.   She was not even buried apart.  

 

Spoiler

Btw Lan does not cry once during the funeral.  Instead to me it looks like he is channeling everyones grief and expressing it as anger  & pain - perhaps anger at Stepin leaving them & the grief at the loss being felt by all.  At no time did it come across to me as this was him on his own.  He was being a leader.  But we can all perceive this in our own pov

 

In the end I just do not see this as a story  where one gender/class/culture/society/etc  is better than another but rather a story of what went wrong when 1 thinks they are better and what goes right when people accept each other for who they are and what they do and not judge people where they are from or what gender they are, and this is especially personified by Rand Al Thors arc.   

 

Stepin to me is a foreshadowing of sorts - of what would have happened if Rand hadnt accepted that others are necessary and you cannot do it all on your own.  Stepins worst moments in life are when he is on his own (after death of parents & Kerene) and his best moments are when he is an accepted part of a community.

 

Balance and acceptance.  At least for me. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by ArrylT

[Blue Sedai]

Yeah, Wheel of Time tv series. Have hoped for years someone would adapt for tv. Learned with GOT it is not possible to follow the books to the letter and introduce all characters or all locals. If there are only eight season to tell the story a great deal will be cut. It is harder as a book reader to deal with massive change. For me, I can deal if the writing is good and the most important story lines remain. My second requirement are core actors that are talented and give believable performances that fit their characters.

 

So far their has been a lot of story cut and some story added. Found it bothersome, but it wasn't a game changer for me. I get they are trying to keep the audience in the dark as long as possible on who DR is, but in so doing it messed with personalities of core characters. So far I have not felt the cast was cohesive in their relationships. Hate to be very negative, but several actors are not believable in their parts and five episodes in, nothing has improved my feeling on several of the actors, but several have become tolerable. My hope with more time I will find myself less critical and bothered with these characters, as it pulls me away from the story.

 

My, I do sound like a whiner. As a whole I have enjoyed the series and will continue to do so. At this time nothing on tv is compelling or rich in story or characters so by comparison Wheel of Time is at least worth the watch. Really hope the writing and acting improve with each episode.

[WhiteVeils]

That's a good critical review. Thank you for your example.  I don't feel the same way, but I appreciate the sentiment.

[WhiteVeils]

Switching gears:  Another Season 1 prediction

 

1) In Episode 6, Padan Fain will steal the dagger from Shadar Logoth from Mat.  

To go with my "Perrin will kill 1-2 whitecloaks before he reaches Tar Valon, possibly/likely one of whom being Bornhold" prediction.  ?  Yeah, I know Niall sends Bornhold to Tomon Head to make a new homeland, but that'd be very hard to explain in the show why they are over there and what they're doing there, and they aren't needed to be in the season except to have Bornhold die (fueling the Two Rivers revenge plot from Dain).  Having Bornhold die now covers all the reason the Whitecloaks HAVE to be there. and simplifies the battle at Falme quite a bit.  

 

[WheelofJuke]

Episode Writers & Directors

 

Based on the above, I'd say the best chance they have of salvaging the series going forward is by pairing Dave Hill (writer) with Wayne Yip (director). Major kudos to them. ?

 

Director Uta Briesewitz (ep. 1 & 2), and Rafe as a writer (ep. 1) are responsible (seemingly) for the most clunky moments and episodes. Celine Song (writer, ep. 5) is a close third with those two. 

 

 

[Sabio]

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Switching gears:  Another Season 1 prediction

 

1) In Episode 6, Padan Fain will steal the dagger from Shadar Logoth from Mat.  

To go with my "Perrin will kill 1-2 whitecloaks before he reaches Tar Valon, possibly/likely one of whom being Bornhold" prediction.  ?  Yeah, I know Niall sends Bornhold to Tomon Head to make a new homeland, but that'd be very hard to explain in the show why they are over there and what they're doing there, and they aren't needed to be in the season except to have Bornhold die (fueling the Two Rivers revenge plot from Dain).  Having Bornhold die now covers all the reason the Whitecloaks HAVE to be there. and simplifies the battle at Falme quite a bit.  

 

I sort of suspected his feud with Valda would lead the White Cloaks to the Two Rivers.  With Valda hating him now there is an excuse for totally removing Bornhold/Byar.