Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[fra85uk]

Problem of show-Lan is that he just come out as a good warrior while he should be THE warrior, he should be that intimidating.

 

For example, Liandrin, instead, really come out as a woman that you would not want to mess with.

[ThroneofTime]

10 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

My next door neighbour and her husband have been nagging me to tell them who the dragon is, my wife has twigged, she thinks it is Rand, because as she said he showed he has power when he knocked the door down. 

 

My coworker is watching it also and I had to hold myself back from even asking who he thought it was cause I’d spoil it on accident lol I already got a friend spoiled cause they follow me on twitter. 

[KakitaOCU]

25 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I agree. I would really have preferred that he said something to her as she was approaching and sort of calmly stand and turn. It would still have given them the reveal they were wanting and would have made Lan a little more awesome without taking anything away from Nynaeve.

 

TBH, Lan is my biggest disappointment about the show (which, to be clear, I really like). They've not made it clear how skillful he is outside of the context of the Winternight battle. He comes across as steady and capable, but not as one of the most dangerous swordsmen in the world.

To be fair, I think we see things frequently, but the show relied too much on visual story telling, because we can see the things the book spells out.

Example in the second episode.  This part of the book describes how Lan is constantly riding off on his own to keep things away from them, coming back with minor wounds showing he's been taking out Trollocs.

In the show, we constantly see the group riding without him and he comes back, or see him leave.  If you check you can see scrapes, cuts and bruising appearing on him progressively through the whole ordeal.  He's doing the same thing he did in the books and coming back largely untouched, but unless you're looking for it you don't notice.

Things like his casual forms and spar with Stepin.  People react to them holding weapons on each other and Stepin tapping his second axe against Lan's sword as a "Ha, Lan got blocked while Stepin got the killing blow."  But watch the scene, Lan places his sword in and above the second axe, then when the scene cuts Stepin has moved his axe up.  That doesn't read to me as Stepin got the better or Lan messed up, that reads to me as Lan choosing not to embarrass Stepin or push the fact that he won. 

There's other things too.  Watch how he walks.  You'll notice his shoulders stay very even, very little up and down, he's walking with his hips, shifting balance as he moves.  The first thing I learned with the sword was how to walk.  Think about it, when you walk you most likely push up and then essentially have a small controlled fall where you catch yourself with your other foot, repeat.  You waste energy pushing up and you are perpetually in points where your balance can go.  Lan doesn't do that, he glides, he uses his hips to move only his leg while his upper body stays relaxed.  You can see this as a comparison when Logain is walking forward at the start of episode 4.  That bobbing up and down can be dramatic but it's not how a swordsman walks.

All in all, the signs of a dangerous and skilled warrior are there, but they're the types of signs you recognize with training, not casually.  Which can definitely be seen as a mistake in the filming, to be fair.

[SinisterDeath]

15 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

#5. The general trivia says that whatever a wilder's first weave is becomes her talent (can anybody book verify that?) I don't recall ever reading that! 

Like the episode trivia in the X-Ray on the Amazon video player? I'll have to look at that cause that's definitely not a book thing.

That said, while it's not talked about in the books, Nynaeve could definitely have a talent for healing, like certain people have talents for shielding or gateways.

[Guire]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I agree. I would really have preferred that he said something to her as she was approaching and sort of calmly stand and turn. It would still have given them the reveal they were wanting and would have made Lan a little more awesome without taking anything away from Nynaeve.

 

TBH, Lan is my biggest disappointment about the show (which, to be clear, I really like). They've not made it clear how skillful he is outside of the context of the Winternight battle. He comes across as steady and capable, but not as one of the most dangerous swordsmen in the world.

There were lots of little things they could have done with Lan, the warders, and Tam that would have made them seem more capable and competent.  In some scenes they almost seemed to undercut the men's abilities to accentuate a female.  Not sure if that was intentional or just accidental in writing.  I see that as a big problem as we move more into characters arcs.  

[Elder_Haman]

I haven't had any issues with the way they've depicted men in general, or the warders in particular. I thought Tam was great in that fight. Could they have buffed Tam a bit in that scene? Sure. But it was already a long scene, so it didn't bother me.

 

My problem with the Warders has nothing to do with their characters and more to do with the weapons of choice. I don't like the axes that much. And I really despise the bow as a primary weapon. Swords would have been a better choice. Or, if you want to do an axe, then no dual wielding. I think that contributed to the messy feel of the camp battle. (OTOH, I've long ago abandoned any hope for 'realistic' combat on screen. Especially where future tech and/or magic are involved, it's going to be about clipping together stuff that looks cool. As long as I can understand what's happening [gives Transformer movies side-eye], battles won't ruin immersion for me just because the fighting isn't always on point.

 

[flinn]

12 minutes ago, Guire said:

There were lots of little things they could have done with Lan, the warders, and Tam that would have made them seem more capable and competent.  In some scenes they almost seemed to undercut the men's abilities to accentuate a female.  Not sure if that was intentional or just accidental in writing.  I see that as a big problem as we move more into characters arcs.  

 It is hard not for me to feel that they have lessened Lan in favor of Nynaeve and it does bother me.

 

 Nynaeve could have snuck up within hearing distance (like in the books) then moved out of hiding to "suprise" Lan from a distance and still have the right effect without making Lan seem incompetent.

 

 Then to have to "kill" Lan in order for Nynaeve to badassery heal him, once again lessened Lan for the sake of Nynaeve.

 

 My daughter who is not a book reader and somewhat casual watcher was here watching episode 4 the other day and asked me... "why do they keep letting that guy lead, he always messes up"...

 That should never, ever, ever be uttered when in reference to Lan, but here we are.

 

 As of now, Lan is my biggest grievance with the tv show. It will be hard for me to buy into him being the badass we know him to be from the books at this point.

 

 Perrin killing his wife is my second biggest grievance.

[Skipp]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I haven't had any issues with the way they've depicted men in general, or the warders in particular. I thought Tam was great in that fight. Could they have buffed Tam a bit in that scene? Sure. But it was already a long scene, so it didn't bother me.

 

My problem with the Warders has nothing to do with their characters and more to do with the weapons of choice. I don't like the axes that much. And I really despise the bow as a primary weapon. Swords would have been a better choice. Or, if you want to do an axe, then no dual wielding. I think that contributed to the messy feel of the camp battle. (OTOH, I've long ago abandoned any hope for 'realistic' combat on screen. Especially where future tech and/or magic are involved, it's going to be about clipping together stuff that looks cool. As long as I can understand what's happening [gives Transformer movies side-eye], battles won't ruin immersion for me just because the fighting isn't always on point.

 

 

I really didn't like Stepin's axes when we only had the trailer.  I changed my mind during the episode. They just seemed more real than how I pictured previously. They seemed to have more weight in the show and that might be due to the added sound design for the weapons in general.

 

I also appreciate that the Warders are using a variety of weapons rather than just each just using the sword. But that is very subjective view.  We do see several of the warders using swords, the warders of the non named greens but Stepin, Maksim and Ivhon each used something different.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Like the episode trivia in the X-Ray on the Amazon video player? I'll have to look at that cause that's definitely not a book thing

Yes. Exactly. Maybe I misunderstood it? I didn't remember that either and was kind of wondering who exactly is writing those things. 

[DaddyFinn]

Ihvon's style of shooting the bow annoyed me for some reason. It looked so over the top and impractical. He swung his hand/elbow far behind his shoulder every time he shot and barely draw the string all the way back. Is a bow even useful on a target few feet away?

Edited December 2, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[MasterAblar]

To be honest it's quite hard to bring the Lan from the books into the show. More often than not it's other character impression of him that makes him come across as so impressive and implacable. It's like there's something inhuman about the way he moves and even when he doesn't move he gives off an aura of danger.

 

How exactly do you transfer that to the screen? Even if you take away Nyneave sneaking up on him, it still wouldn't be the Lan from the books. I can't say I've really been satisfied with the Lan we've seen but that has nothing to do the actor and everything to do with the character. If he was as stoic and "stone like" as in the books most people would find him incredibly boring. Doesn't mean they have to make him super emotive or anything but the balance is definitely hard to find.

 

His interactions with Nyneave have so far been the best in my opinion, there's just not enough of him leading in a way. Having just re-read the 1st book Moiraine often just pretty much says to just do what Lan says because he knows best when they're on the run. So it does kinda feel like his expertise isn't coming across as it should. Is that a creative decision or one forced through lack of time? I don't know obviously but hopefully he will given his time to shine particularly in the last 2 episodes when they reach the borderlands.

[Katherine]

Excellent point! 

 

Did we ever get a POV chapter from Lan before book...... 12?

 

His most human moment early on is 

Spoiler

When he helps Rand before he goes to face the Amrylin Seat for the first time. 

 

[Theseus78]

6 minutes ago, Katherine said:

Excellent point! 

 

Did we ever get a POV chapter from Lan before book...... 12?

 

His most human moment early on is 

  Hide contents

When he helps Rand before he goes to face the Amrylin Seat for the first time. 

 

First Lan POV chapter is in New Spring. ?

Other than that, not until ToM

[Tim]

If there was a decision I would question about Lan, it is not Nynaeve sneaking up on him, but rather making him solely responsible for the decision to go to Shadar Logoth - and then suggesting that Moiraine would never have made that decision if she had been conscious.
 

It reminded me of the LOTR films where instead of Gandalf wanting to go through Moria and Aragorn resisting it, they switched the roles. I think this undercut the drama of Gandalf’s fall, and played against type for Aragorn. 
 

I didn’t mind the equivalent as much here, but it felt much more like a decision Moiraine would have made than Lan. 
 

 

[Skipp]

13 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Ihvon's style of shooting the bow annoyed me for some reason. It looked so over the top and impractical. He swung his hand/elbow far behind his shoulder every time he shot and barely draw the string all the way back. Is a bow even useful on a target few feet away?

While I am no expert or even a novice in shooting a bow I am fairly certain that you do not need much draw to puncture a person at close distance.  Ihvon's method have having multiple arrows in his fingers of his draw hand is an actual speed shooting technique.

[Deviations]

9 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

How exactly do you transfer that to the screen? Even if you take away Nyneave sneaking up on him, it still wouldn't be the Lan from the books.

They could have done it with Lan teaching Rand, Perrin and Mat about their weapons (I recognize that he didn't teach Mat much).  Even if only once scene, it could have done a lot:

 

1. Demonstrate his mastery

2. Call Rand a sheepherder

3. Call Perrin a blacksmith

4. Allow Mat to claim superiority by sticking with his bow

5. Set the foundation for him helping the three in contrast to his oath/bond to Moraine

6. etc., etc., etc.

 

[DojoToad]

45 minutes ago, Guire said:

There were lots of little things they could have done with Lan, the warders, and Tam that would have made them seem more capable and competent.  In some scenes they almost seemed to undercut the men's abilities to accentuate a female.  Not sure if that was intentional or just accidental in writing.  I see that as a big problem as we move more into characters arcs.  

I got tired of beating that drum early on, but agree with you completely.

[DaddyFinn]

18 minutes ago, Skipp said:

While I am no expert or even a novice in shooting a bow I am fairly certain that you do not need much draw to puncture a person at close distance.  Ihvon's method have having multiple arrows in his fingers of his draw hand is an actual speed shooting technique.

I hope all that is correct but it just looked silly. Nothing major though

[Skipp]

@DaddyFinn Yeah it looks a little silly but it has historic basis.  Check out Lars Anderson on youtube as he has several videos on both the speed shooting and short distance shooting.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Guire said:

There were lots of little things they could have done with Lan, the warders, and Tam that would have made them seem more capable and competent.  In some scenes they almost seemed to undercut the men's abilities to accentuate a female.  Not sure if that was intentional or just accidental in writing.  I see that as a big problem as we move more into characters arcs.  

Remember as well, COVID, I am not sure how much that impacted weapon handling training, fight choreography and the other work that actors need to put into playing a physical fighting part. 

[ArrylT]

Daniel Henney is in his mid 40s now, so actually right about the same age as Lan.  

 

One thing I would like to note, is that since the invention of gunpowder the skills of sword fighting have slowly but consistently been in decline.  

 

Apart from fencing and people who are weapons experts for movies ... and it is not like it's a skill you can readily learn to be an expert.  

 

I'm pretty sure he said he spend on and off about a year just getting used to wearing the sword.  

 

So while camera angles, tricks and techniques can be helpful,  expecting a middle aged human to turn into a master swordsman in a day when its such a niche career.

 

Add in covid as a issue I'm pretty content,  for me at least   that he looks better than competent.  I'd bet on this depiction of Lan over many other characters including Ned Stark.

 

I think as the show goes on his skills on TV will continue to look better as expertise and experience come into play.

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, Katherine said:

Excellent point! 

 

Did we ever get a POV chapter from Lan before book...... 12?

 

His most human moment early on is 

  Hide contents

When he helps Rand before he goes to face the Amrylin Seat for the first time. 

 

 

Yep, really hope that's in the show. 

[RhienneAgain]

I'm on total agreement on the disappointment in Lan. He doesn't feel like the same character as book Lan at all.

 

To an extent I understand that a stone-like, stoic character might not appeal to fans that much but I think given how many other characters there are to hook you in, it would be ok to have one character like that who grows on you gradually as the series progresses.

 

In the books, Lan is so perfectly described by his Aiel title - Aan'Allein, the man alone. In the show he's portrayed as just 'one of the lads' around the campfire with the other warders. The other characters aren't remotely intimidated by him. There's no sense in any character's interactions with him that they have any respect for him or his skills.

[KakitaOCU]

34 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

Daniel Henney is in his mid 40s now, so actually right about the same age as Lan.  

 

One thing I would like to note, is that since the invention of gunpowder the skills of sword fighting have slowly but consistently been in decline.  

 

Apart from fencing and people who are weapons experts for movies ... and it is not like it's a skill you can readily learn to be an expert.  

 

I'm pretty sure he said he spend on and off about a year just getting used to wearing the sword...  

 

...Add in covid as a issue I'm pretty content,  for me at least   that he looks better than competent.  I'd bet on this depiction of Lan over many other characters including Ned Stark.

 

I think as the show goes on his skills on TV will continue to look better as expertise and experience come into play.

I'm going to second this and provide a few other tidbits.

A year is not enough time to be good.  That walking thing I mentioned earlier?  Spent a month on that and still wasn't perfect.

That aside, real sword mastery?  Boring as a visual spectacle.  And, funny enough, a lot easier than learning to stage fight in a believable and fun way.   For a fun comparison.  Who's a more impressive athlete?  Jet Li or Carlos Gracie?   I'll easily say Jet Li is a more talented athlete.  In a fight with both in their prime?  Gracie would dominate without question.

So yeah, Lan has had a year to learn something that takes 2 or 3 and is even harder if you're trying to make it look flashy.

Edited December 2, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[Skipp]

8 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I'm on total agreement on the disappointment in Lan. He doesn't feel like the same character as book Lan at all.

 

To an extent I understand that a stone-like, stoic character might not appeal to fans that much but I think given how many other characters there are to hook you in, it would be ok to have one character like that who grows on you gradually as the series progresses.

 

In the books, Lan is so perfectly described by his Aiel title - Aan'Allein, the man alone. In the show he's portrayed as just 'one of the lads' around the campfire with the other warders. The other characters aren't remotely intimidated by him. There's no sense in any character's interactions with him that they have any respect for him or his skills.

 

I am prefering the show Lan to book Lan.  Don;t get me wrong, book Lan has many excellent scenes and I hope they move those to the show.  But I think one of the reasons we as book readers see Lan the way we do is due to the fact that we generally saw Lan through the eyes of Rand or one of the other boys in the early books.  We know Nynaeve and Lan fall for each other but it seems to jump out of nowhere in the books because from Rand's PoV we don't actually see it or what he sees goes over his head.

 

I appreciate that we are seeing the deep friendship that Lan and Moiraine share in private.  I appreciate we see Lan and Nynaeve's attraction flesh itself out.  I hope we see more of Lan's skill in the future.  I really hope we see Lan preparing Rand for his visit to the Amrylin.  But I don't think that we have seen Lan de-appreciated in the show simply because isn't just a pillar standing in the background.