Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[fra85uk]

6 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think the Fade is afraid of Mat's dagger, no?

So an army of trolloc and a fade just go on a one-month holiday because of Mat's dagger? It seems pretty weak as an excuse.

 

Possible dialogue

"Have you found the Chosen one (boy or girl, let Us repeat It in case the audience did not get it)?"

"Oh my Lord, look ehm...it was quite cold in the last month and you know one of the possible Chosen ones (that remember may be a boy or a girl but in this case i am talking About one of the boys) had a scaaaaary dagger...ehm"

"Do not worry, it is perfectly acceptable to share your emotions and fears."

[Ralph]

And did this not happen in the books? 

[RextheDog]

11 hours ago, Katherine said:

And yet it was a cultural phenomenon. 

 

 

 

 

 

thats debatable .

 

id asign things like 'hip hop' or 'television' as a cultural phenomenom.....

 

but i digress, i understand your point

 

 

[whiskey delta]

Random musings

 

In one of the dream sequences Perrin sees Laila being eaten by a wolf. Considering the connection between Perrin and wolves, I’m trying to reason out what the wolf’s appearance means.
 

It made for good shock factor on screen but as Goldeneyes comes to be the wolf is less menacing  and very meaningful in retrospect because it can’t be coincidence (stating the obvious here)
 

My theory is the wolf attacking “Laila” was a way of warning/alerting Perrin to the dangers of the Dream or that it wasn’t real. I’ve read elsewhere some believe it shows Laila was a DF since wolves hate all things Shadow

 

does anyone else have any thoughts?

Edited December 8, 2021 by DELTA
a word

[Ralph]

26 minutes ago, DELTA said:

Random musings

 

In one of the dream sequences Perrin sees Laila being eaten by a wolf. Considering the connection between Perrin and wolves, I’m trying to reason out what the wolf’s appearance means.
 

It made for good shock factor on screen but as Goldeneyes comes to be the wolf is less menacing  and very meaningful in retrospect because it can’t be coincidence (stating the obvious here)
 

My theory is the wolf attacking “Laila” was a way of warning/alerting Perrin to the dangers of the Dream or that it wasn’t real. I’ve read elsewhere some believe it shows Laila was a DF since wolves hate all things Shadow

 

does anyone else have any thoughts?

 

I thought it might be Baalzamon trying to make him think of the wolf connection as evil

[dwn]

33 minutes ago, DELTA said:

Random musings

 

In one of the dream sequences Perrin sees Laila being eaten by a wolf. Considering the connection between Perrin and wolves, I’m trying to reason out what the wolf’s appearance means.
 

It made for good shock factor on screen but as Goldeneyes comes to be the wolf is less menacing  and very meaningful in retrospect because it can’t be coincidence (stating the obvious here)
 

My theory is the wolf attacking “Laila” was a way of warning/alerting Perrin to the dangers of the Dream or that it wasn’t real. I’ve read elsewhere some believe it shows Laila was a DF since wolves hate all things Shadow

 

does anyone else have any thoughts?

 

Ralph's interpretation above is one I hadn't thought of (and like). I personally viewed it as Perrin linking the wild/aggressive wolf nature to his loss of control that resulted in Leila's death.

[Pandemonium]

4 hours ago, DELTA said:

Random musings

 

In one of the dream sequences Perrin sees Laila being eaten by a wolf. Considering the connection between Perrin and wolves, I’m trying to reason out what the wolf’s appearance means.
 

It made for good shock factor on screen but as Goldeneyes comes to be the wolf is less menacing  and very meaningful in retrospect because it can’t be coincidence (stating the obvious here)
 

My theory is the wolf attacking “Laila” was a way of warning/alerting Perrin to the dangers of the Dream or that it wasn’t real. I’ve read elsewhere some believe it shows Laila was a DF since wolves hate all things Shadow

 

does anyone else have any thoughts?

my only thought was that Laila is the voice the wolves will use to communicate with Perrin.  But not sure if she is cast anymore episodes.  

[Mailman]

18 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

I'd ask you this: what key book moment have we missed? I can think of only two so far:  Perrin did not kill a Whitecloak (at least he hasn't yet), and Rand did not fall into the palace Garden. Otherwise, the main beats of EotW are all present in the tv show. 

 

• Rand getting Tam to EF and gaining the knowledge that Tam is not his father which has a massive influence on his character.
• Training with Lan at the moment none of the 3 have any weapons training at all. Also vast reduction in the time spent with the three boys reducing the chemistry with them especially Rand.
• Bonding with Thom. Thom has no connection with anyone except Mat and Rand and that has been reduced to a few days hardly someone you would be desperate to reconnect with. Thom from here as well in the books only makes a small appearance till the middle of the 3rd book (the section in book 2 i can easily see being cut as well).
• Moiraine has been gutted and the EoTW is IMO where she is strongest in the entire series being responsible for driving the story more here than at any other point going forward. She goes from a driven and intelligent character that will stop at nothing to thwart the dark ones plans and protect the DR to a obtuse and injured character for most of the first 4 episodes and then lets the potential DR roam free hunted by the dark one without protection for a month while she rides to Tar Valon. She now has less than 3 episodes to interact with the main characters before seasons end having had minimal time with them to this point.
• Elyas and Hopper not introduced probably tied as the second most important characters in Perrins entire story arc.
• Min not introduced. ( no issue with it being moved and casting shows she is incoming)
• Mutch cut

 

[Hobo]

16 minutes ago, Mailman said:

 

• Rand getting Tam to EF and gaining the knowledge that Tam is not his father which has a massive influence on his character.
• Training with Lan at the moment none of the 3 have any weapons training at all. Also vast reduction in the time spent with the three boys reducing the chemistry with them especially Rand.
• Bonding with Thom. Thom has no connection with anyone except Mat and Rand and that has been reduced to a few days hardly someone you would be desperate to reconnect with. Thom from here as well in the books only makes a small appearance till the middle of the 3rd book (the section in book 2 i can easily see being cut as well).
• Moiraine has been gutted and the EoTW is IMO where she is strongest in the entire series being responsible for driving the story more here than at any other point going forward. She goes from a driven and intelligent character that will stop at nothing to thwart the dark ones plans and protect the DR to a obtuse and injured character for most of the first 4 episodes and then lets the potential DR roam free hunted by the dark one without protection for a month while she rides to Tar Valon. She now has less than 3 episodes to interact with the main characters before seasons end having had minimal time with them to this point.
• Elyas and Hopper not introduced probably tied as the second most important characters in Perrins entire story arc.
• Min not introduced. ( no issue with it being moved and casting shows she is incoming)
• Mutch cut

 

I would also add Mordeth as a key character/moment(hopefully we will get this in a Fain flashback mayhap). Padan Fain meeting and melding with Mordeth is, id say, pretty crucial for several plot points He is the driving force behind stealing the horn in book 2, and in leading the WC into the Two Rivers iirc. 

 

Omfg and Fain/Mordeth/Machin Shin ultimate form Vs Mat!

Edited December 8, 2021 by Hobo

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, Hobo said:

I would also add Mordeth as a key character/moment(hopefully we will get this in a Fain flashback mayhap). Padan Fain meeting and melding with Mordeth is, id say, pretty crucial for several plot points He is the driving force behind stealing the horn in book 2, and in leading the WC into the Two Rivers iirc. 

 

Omfg and Fain/Mordeth/Machin Shin ultimate form Vs Mat!

Fain/Mordeth wasn't revealed in the books at this point. Fain was in SL in the show. His whistling can be heard just before Mat wakes up.

[DaddyFinn]

5 minutes ago, Hobo said:

O shit really? I just started rewatching ep 1 a little while ago so ill keep my ears peeled for it

The shadow that leads Mat to the dagger is probably Mordeth, because why would Fain do that. There's also a figure going past the doorway behind Mat as he's examining the dagger. Just speculation at this point ?

Edited December 8, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[themann1086]

When asked about missing the Tam/Rand sequence during a Reddit q&a, rafe answered "did we?" Pretty clear at this point the scene will be included in a flashback for e7 or e8. Possibly one of the cold opens, just like e3's showed us Nynaeve's perspective of that night.

[DaddyFinn]

7 minutes ago, themann1086 said:

When asked about missing the Tam/Rand sequence during a Reddit q&a, rafe answered "did we?" Pretty clear at this point the scene will be included in a flashback for e7 or e8. Possibly one of the cold opens, just like e3's showed us Nynaeve's perspective of that night.

There's a pic in episode 1 bonus material. Obviously it has been filmed

[WheelofJuke]

9 hours ago, fra85uk said:

So an army of trolloc and a fade just go on a one-month holiday because of Mat's dagger? It seems pretty weak as an excuse.

 

Possible dialogue

"Have you found the Chosen one (boy or girl, let Us repeat It in case the audience did not get it)?"

"Oh my Lord, look ehm...it was quite cold in the last month and you know one of the possible Chosen ones (that remember may be a boy or a girl but in this case i am talking About one of the boys) had a scaaaaary dagger...ehm"

"Do not worry, it is perfectly acceptable to share your emotions and fears."

Don't forget: after jumping from Shadar Logoth into the river, Rand and Mat escaped on a log!

 

Escape logs make spectacular time.

[KakitaOCU]

10 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Really? 

So trollocs and fade at the chase, they all decided to take a one month nap. ?

Ralph beat me to it, but will repeat since you didn't seem to respond.  This is what happens in the book.  Thom takes on the Fade and then the boys have a relatively boring time to Caemlyn other than a few DF encounters.

It's like Trollocs can only pour out where there's a gate of some sort to let them...

 

 

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

 

• Rand getting Tam to EF and gaining the knowledge that Tam is not his father which has a massive influence on his character.
• Training with Lan at the moment none of the 3 have any weapons training at all. Also vast reduction in the time spent with the three boys reducing the chemistry with them especially Rand.
• Bonding with Thom. Thom has no connection with anyone except Mat and Rand and that has been reduced to a few days hardly someone you would be desperate to reconnect with. Thom from here as well in the books only makes a small appearance till the middle of the 3rd book (the section in book 2 i can easily see being cut as well).
• Moiraine has been gutted and the EoTW is IMO where she is strongest in the entire series being responsible for driving the story more here than at any other point going forward. She goes from a driven and intelligent character that will stop at nothing to thwart the dark ones plans and protect the DR to a obtuse and injured character for most of the first 4 episodes and then lets the potential DR roam free hunted by the dark one without protection for a month while she rides to Tar Valon. She now has less than 3 episodes to interact with the main characters before seasons end having had minimal time with them to this point.
• Elyas and Hopper not introduced probably tied as the second most important characters in Perrins entire story arc.
• Min not introduced. ( no issue with it being moved and casting shows she is incoming)
• Mutch cut

 

Going down the list.

1: The scene was filmed, just hasn't been shown yet.
2: The training time was not significant in the books.  Lan only really bonds with Rand and that happens off-camera between books 1 and 2.
3: Thom does bond with Rand and Mat, he has no significant connections to the rest of the EF5.  Do wish we could have had some of him and Moraine, but that can be built up in Tear.
4: Moraine couldn't find Rand or Mat in the books either.  They did go rescue Perrin and Egwene straight though.  Either way, she's apart from them in both mediums.
5: The wolf just started, speculation is that Elyas is being combined with Hurin as a guide that will come shortly.  Remember, this is not an adaptation of EotW, this is an adaptation of the start of the entire story.
6: As you said, she's coming, just moved.
7: Hmm?

[Elder_Haman]

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

Rand getting Tam to EF and gaining the knowledge that Tam is not his father which has a massive influence on his character.

I agree with this. On the other hand, it is such a blindingly obvious tipoff that Rand is the chosen one that I understand if they choose to do this via flashback (which Rafe has hinted is the plan). 

 

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

Training with Lan at the moment none of the 3 have any weapons training at all. Also vast reduction in the time spent with the three boys reducing the chemistry with them especially Rand.

Okay, but this isn't really a moment. This is more of a process and it's something that can be moved around. I think you'll see this added toward the end of this season and/or the beginning of next. And the boys hadn't had very much training with Lan by this point. Only a few sessions on the road between Emond's Field and Shadar Logoth.

 

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

Bonding with Thom. Thom has no connection with anyone except Mat and Rand and that has been reduced to a few days hardly someone you would be desperate to reconnect with.

Again, not a moment. And they aren't really "desperate to reconnect" with Thom. They just kind of happen to run into him again in Cairhien. People will be excited to see Thom again - which is about the same point we were in the books from an audience standpoint. From a character standpoint, I agree they haven't had much time with Thom. But I don't really think that ends up mattering much. They can develop those relationships later just as effectively.

 

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

Moiraine has been gutted and the EoTW is IMO where she is strongest in the entire series being responsible for driving the story more here than at any other point going forward. She goes from a driven and intelligent character that will stop at nothing to thwart the dark ones plans and protect the DR to a obtuse and injured character for most of the first 4 episodes and then lets the potential DR roam free hunted by the dark one without protection for a month while she rides to Tar Valon. She now has less than 3 episodes to interact with the main characters before seasons end having had minimal time with them to this point.

I see this as a valid criticism. Moiraine's role has been diminished somewhat. But we've still got a ways to go in the season and they are about to reunite. There will be some great opportunities to see Moiraine at her best: in the Ways, in Fal Dara, at the Eye. 

 

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

Elyas and Hopper not introduced probably tied as the second most important characters in Perrins entire story arc.

I'm not sure where I said it before, but it is clear that they're going slower with Perrin and the wolves. I think this is smart on their part because Perrin ends up repeating part of his arc (mastering the wolf dream) and becomes sort of redundant and disappointing at the end. So my guess is that we will see Elyas (maybe combined with another character like Hurin or Uno?) and Hopper more fully introduced in S2.

 

3 hours ago, Hobo said:

would also add Mordeth as a key character/moment(hopefully we will get this in a Fain flashback mayhap). Padan Fain meeting and melding with Mordeth is, id say, pretty crucial for several plot points He is the driving force behind stealing the horn in book 2, and in leading the WC into the Two Rivers iirc. 

Mordeth is implied. Look at the scene closely and you'll see a shadow that leads Mat to the dagger. And I'm pretty sure we are getting another scene in Shadar Logoth where we find out about Fain.

[DojoToad]

29 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'm not sure where I said it before, but it is clear that they're going slower with Perrin and the wolves. I think this is smart on their part because Perrin ends up repeating part of his arc (mastering the wolf dream) and becomes sort of redundant and disappointing at the end. So my guess is that we will see Elyas (maybe combined with another character like Hurin or Uno?) and Hopper more fully introduced in S2.

Agreed.  Only slightly bothered me in the books, but I never really got Hurin's ability.  Combining him with Elyas would be a great fix imo.

 

29 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

Mordeth is implied. Look at the scene closely and you'll see a shadow that leads Mat to the dagger. And I'm pretty sure we are getting another scene in Shadar Logoth where we find out about Fain.

Mordeth can be implied for book readers because we have the background, but not for new to WoT people - which is supposed to be the majority of the TV audience, correct?

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Mordeth can be implied for book readers because we have the background, but not for new to WoT people - which is supposed to be the majority of the TV audience, correct?

Correct. But again, I think we are going to get a different view of S.L. involving Fain. So I think the analysis for the tv audience is incomplete.

[whiskey delta]

8 hours ago, Ralph said:

I thought it might be Baalzamon trying to make him think of the wolf connection as evil

 

I considered this as well but I'm not sure Baalzamon knew Perrin was already a wolfbro by that time or if he'd be able to do something like that with a wolf in a dream.

 

I do think this was the intended reaction for the audience and Perrin (initially) until we learned more about his ability so I do agree on that front though

[whiskey delta]

8 hours ago, dwn said:

I personally viewed it as Perrin linking the wild/aggressive wolf nature to his loss of control that resulted in Leila's death.

 

I like this theory actually and it's the first time I've heard it. Goes in line with Perrin's inner struggle with violence/bloodlust from the books so it would fit.

[DojoToad]

11 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Correct. But again, I think we are going to get a different view of S.L. involving Fain. So I think the analysis for the tv audience is incomplete.

You are likely correct the more I think about it.  Their time in Shadar Logoth was so short that they have to go back to flesh out the evil - through flashback?

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

You are likely correct the more I think about it.  Their time in Shadar Logoth was so short that they have to go back to flesh out the evil - through flashback?

My theory is that we are going to get the reveal of the DR told from Fain's POV (basically). Fain sees Rand with Tam in the wood after the attack and overhears the fever dream. And then we'll see a few scenes of him following the group, then following Rand and Mat. During that, we'll get him in SL and maybe find out what happens to the trollocs. 

 

And I think that Fain stealing the dagger is going to be the ticking clock that sends them into the Ways to Fal Dara. Possibly, instead of taunting Rand with Toman Head, Fain will taunt them with the Eye?

[DojoToad]

8 hours ago, dwn said:

 

Ralph's interpretation above is one I hadn't thought of (and like). I personally viewed it as Perrin linking the wild/aggressive wolf nature to his loss of control that resulted in Leila's death.

Perrin did not lose control.  He was an untrained villager caught in a chaotic fight for his life and he made a mistake.  He can still feel guilt for making that mistake, being human and all, but I imagine that 99% of us in the same situation would have been swinging at any sound or movement.

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

My theory is that we are going to get the reveal of the DR told from Fain's POV (basically). Fain sees Rand with Tam in the wood after the attack and overhears the fever dream. And then we'll see a few scenes of him following the group, then following Rand and Mat. During that, we'll get him in SL and maybe find out what happens to the trollocs. 

 

And I think that Fain stealing the dagger is going to be the ticking clock that sends them into the Ways to Fal Dara. Possibly, instead of taunting Rand with Toman Head, Fain will taunt them with the Eye?

Very interesting theory - and more importantly, plausible.  I'll be interested to read how close you get.

[SinisterDeath]

11 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Really? 

So trollocs and fade at the chase, they all decided to take a one month nap. ?

No. They take the Ways back to the Blight, and join the masse marching on Tarwin's Gap.

Trollocs attacking a small village in the middle of nowhere, leaving no trace along the way from the blight, isn't something people are going to believe. They'll hear the stories and they'll reply "yeah right dude. You're making this bloody stuff up!"

Had that trolloc army carved a path through Andor? Hitting every village Rand & Mat went to? Made it to the Walls of Tar Valon? Yea.... people would have noticed. The world would have noticed... 

 

Instead, by not attacking, they sound like a bunch of lunatics. 

Meanwhile, the fades tracking them. 

Ba'alzamon is invading their dreams...