Adaptation or Fanfiction, and Harriet's views of the TV Show

[Thall]

I can’t believe after thirty years of keeping a tight rein on the books, intellectual property and saving the story as Jordan meant for it to be told, Harriett would let this happen to Jordan’s story. Has Rafe read the series? I doubt it. Five episodes in and it’s all over the shop.

[Yojimbo]

12 hours ago, Thall said:

I can’t believe after thirty years of keeping a tight rein on the books, intellectual property and saving the story as Jordan meant for it to be told, Harriett would let this happen to Jordan’s story. Has Rafe read the series? I doubt it. Five episodes in and it’s all over the shop.

Rafe has decided that Robert Jordan's version of the WoT isn't good enough, so he's written Survivor: Randland instead.  

[king of nowhere]

25 minutes ago, GanoesParan said:

 

If what you believe is true, then how is it possible that RJ's wife is approving Rafe's adaptation of her husband's beloved legacy? 

Every interview of her that I've seen shows she is very pleased with this TV show. 

and, expanding on this point: she was not just RJ wife, she was his editor. A professional editor.

And it's not like she needed money. Her husband's books sold 90 million copies, I don't know exactly how much of that went into their pockets, but she surely doesn't have financial problems.

Harriet supported this adaptation because she knows enough about storytelling to see this for a good adaptation. Just like sanderson knows enough about storytelling to know this is a good adaptation.

6 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

I see a lot of, "RJ would say this or that today". There is no possible way to really know that. I find the willingness to put words in a dead mans mouth a little disturbing

well, Harriet could probably say it.

a fan complaining a minor plot change from the book ruined the franchise forever... not so much

Edited December 5, 2021 by king of nowhere

[Scarloc99]

13 minutes ago, Ralph said:

This cuts both ways

The fact that Harriet has given all the changes her blessing is probably the closest we can get to knowing with RJ would think. The fact as well she has guarded the TV rights so closely suggests that she would very much have vocalised her dislike of this adaptation, or at the least remained silent instead of endorsing it and that is the main thing here. She is endorsing the series, by all means have an opinion about it one way or the other, but blanket statements like he would be rolling in his grave ignore her part in Allowing this adaptation to be made. I imagine she has also been on hand to advise and possibly even given the writers access to the original notes and details. 

[ArrylT]

Game of Thrones the show benefited from George Martin in 2 ways.

 

1 - Martin had previous show/ film / screenwriting experience prior to writing ASoIaF

 

So he could write his books with adaptation in mind.  He actually went through experiences where parts of his books and screenplays got cut out due to budget / feasibility / etc.   While his ASoIaF books obviously still had to be adapted to screenplays, that process was likely easier.

 

2 - He is alive &was an active writer on the show

 

He actually wrote 1 episode in each of the 4 seasons.  He also had a lot of say on the selection of the writers for that show.

 

I can only imagine what benefits WOT would have gotten if Robert Jordan had been around to adapt his books to television and actually write adaptations.  That is no knock on Rafe or Harriet McDougall - just that obviously having Robert Jordan around would have been such a plus.

 

However at least 1 of the writers working on WOTTV has worked on GOT (Dave Hill) so hopefully that will continue to pay dividends (the episode written by Hill was the highest rated - #4) as the other writers gain from that experience with a fantasy series.  I have no doubt the other writers have lots of talent but it seems most of their experience comes from non fantasy/sci fi shows or films.    

 

I am glad we have Brandon Sanderson, whose experiences working on adapting his own books into the other mediums will help give insight for WOT as well.

Edited December 7, 2021 by ArrylT

[Ryrin]

On 12/5/2021 at 8:33 AM, GanoesParan said:

 

If what you believe is true, then how is it possible that RJ's wife is approving Rafe's adaptation of her husband's beloved legacy? 

Every interview of her that I've seen shows she is very pleased with this TV show. 

We are inquiring on how it is possible. Harriet and RJ were even against fanfic in his world and that’s why it wasn’t allowed at Dragonmount. Check with Jason if you don’t believe me. Yet, Harriet allows this. 

[ManetherenTaveren]

14 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

1 - Martin had previous show/ film / screenwriting experience prior to writing ASoIaF

Yeah, GRRM had quite the influence. Also note that GoT's pilot was completely panned by HBO execs and other producers, requiring a complete rewrite/reshoot of the pilot,  and they recast Daenerys!  Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon is a fascinating read. It contains some amazing insights into the production problems they faced. Two dedicated showrunners supplemented by GRRM definitely helped. They also brought in some heavy-hitter directors with plenty of modest budget experience.

 

Plus there was the gratuitous stuff, which brought in more eyeballs.

 

22 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

I am glad we have Brandon Sanderson, whose experiences working on adapting his own books into the other mediums will help give insight for WOT as well.

I really doubt BS and Harriet could give the insights that GRRM could. What BS works have been adapted? I don't recall him being active in the visual medium yet.

[Deadsy]

24 minutes ago, Ryrin said:

We are inquiring on how it is possible. Harriet and RJ were even against fanfic in his world and that’s why it wasn’t allowed at Dragonmount. Check with Jason if you don’t believe me. Yet, Harriet allows this. 

 

If you weren't already aware, RJ was the first one who sold the TV rights to the Wheel of Time.

[Ryrin]

1 hour ago, GanoesParan said:

Amazon's Wheel of Time is not fanfic. If you're implying that it is, that is your right to do so. However, I strongly disagree with said implication. 

If you are not implying this, then I apologize. 

No one is implying the WoT is fanfic. 

 

What is implied is that Harriet & RJ were so guarded about the use of his material. It’s difficult to understand why she allowed the story to be so refitted. Of course, adaptations need to me made, but as others have stated here some of them appear so off base and unnecessary. 

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, ManetherenTaveren said:

I really doubt BS and Harriet could give the insights that GRRM could. What BS works have been adapted? I don't recall him being active in the visual medium yet.

BS has written several of his books into movie/TV scripts in a few different ways. Nothing has been made yet though

[Deadsy]

1 hour ago, Ryrin said:

No one is implying the WoT is fanfic. 

 

What is implied is that Harriet & RJ were so guarded about the use of his material. It’s difficult to understand why she allowed the story to be so refitted. Of course, adaptations need to me made, but as others have stated here some of them appear so off base and unnecessary. 

 

 

Probably because she thought he'd be fine with it. She knows better than anyone.

The reason it seemed you were implying the TV show is fan fiction is because you brought up that RJ was against fan fiction, and then said "Yet, Harriet allows this." Most people who read that would take it that way.

[Ryrin]

1 hour ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

Probably because she thought he'd be fine with it. She knows better than anyone.

The reason it seemed you were implying the TV show is fan fiction is because you brought up that RJ was against fan fiction, and then said "Yet, Harriet allows this." Most people who read that would take it that way.

I’ll try again. Both were against fan fiction. Fan fiction includes people altering his story while using his characters and writing in his world (without his permission.) For that reason, I was surprised that Harriet gave permission to alter the story and characters to the extent that we have seen. If people are unable to connect the dots, I can’t help that. 
 

Numerous people have opined on the alterations and I won’t do so here. Maybe later. It’s late. ?

[Elder_Haman]

8 hours ago, PerrinsShadow said:

but this would have Robert Jordan in a rage to see his books, his story telling genius tossed aside to have this farce be used to stand in its place.

Then why doesn’t it have Harriet in a rage? She was as much a part of these books as Jordan was. 

[SinisterDeath]

11 hours ago, Ryrin said:

We are inquiring on how it is possible. Harriet and RJ were even against fanfic in his world and that’s why it wasn’t allowed at Dragonmount. Check with Jason if you don’t believe me. Yet, Harriet allows this. 

RJ himself allowed the video game.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time_(video_game)#Plot

 

You know, the one where the keeper of chronicles discovers the black Ajah in the WT, fights Trollocs with Ter'Angrael, that happen to just exist everywhere, and they all happen to shoot out fireballs & balefire.... and uses a "ritual" to make sure the DO doesn't escape.

[Deviations]

56 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Then why doesn’t it have Harriet in a rage? She was as much a part of these books as Jordan was. 

This question makes me lose sleep.  For the life of me, I can't fathom how she would approve of this.

[mogi68]

8 hours ago, Ryrin said:

I’ll try again. Both were against fan fiction. Fan fiction includes people altering his story while using his characters and writing in his world (without his permission.) For that reason, I was surprised that Harriet gave permission to alter the story and characters to the extent that we have seen. If people are unable to connect the dots, I can’t help that. 
 

Numerous people have opined on the alterations and I won’t do so here. Maybe later. It’s late. ?

 

Harriet's not really a factor here. RJ sold the rights for TV/Film/Games to Red Eagle in 2004.

 

She is a consulting producer, like Brandon. Even if they opposed various choices, they don't have creative control or any authority over the production team.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Deviations said:

Ouch.  Was she a better storyteller than RJ?  Did she disagree with him in some manner we don't know about?

There was an interview with Harriet, where she talked about editing the Wheel of Time. I can't recall if it was one of the things she recorded with WoTV or if it was a written article... the gist of it was, there were things he wrote that he thought was perfect, that she harshly rejected.
There were things he wrote and didn't like, that she loved and thought was perfect.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

There was an interview with Harriet, where she talked about editing the Wheel of Time. I can't recall if it was one of the things she recorded with WoTV or if it was a written article... the gist of it was, there were things he wrote that he thought was perfect, that she harshly rejected.
There were things he wrote and didn't like, that she loved and thought was perfect.

It's in the recorded extras you can find connected to the show. It's a beautifully done interview. She seems like a lovely person.

[SinisterDeath]

19 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It's in the recorded extras you can find connected to the show. It's a beautifully done interview. She seems like a lovely person.

That's what I thought. Unfortunately Amazon Prime Video is down right now..

 

7 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Not my point.  If her influence was strong (and I believe it was), it follows that she had consensus (at a minimum) with him on his story.  How does that square with this TV departure?  Did she not actually approve of the original version?

 

There was plenty of documented commentary on how Sanderson tried to closely follow Jordan and how important it was to her.  Why not now?

 

 

Books =/= TV

 

You can look at the Video Game as an example of a work that is non-canonical to the books that was "approved" by RJ. Same goes for the TTRPG that came out.

Winter Dragon blindsided Harriet, and she hadn't even been made aware of it's existence. This Adaptation, she was brought on board. 

If the show does well, it could mean a boost to book sales.

I dunno if their original deal grants them a % of the show's profits.... But that's the main difference between "Fanfiction" and an "Adaptation". 

Fanfiction doesn't pay the "author" and doesn't have permission to use it.

An "Adaptation" pays the "author" and has permission to use it.

Many like to cite "The Witcher" tv series as a faithful adaptation...
Yet, the Video Games were anything but a Faithful adaptation. 

That TV series probably wouldn't exist, if the Video Games weren't wildly popular/profitable. 

[TheDreadReader]

1 minute ago, Deviations said:

Not my point.  If her influence was strong (and I believe it was), it follows that she had consensus (at a minimum) with him on his story.  How does that square with this TV departure?  Did she not actually approve of the original version?

 

There was plenty of documented commentary on how Sanderson tried to closely follow Jordan and how important it was to her.  Why not now?

 

 

 

Perhaps, from her professional experience and accounting for changes in format, she understands and approves of all the changes that Rafe is making?

 

Just because some book fans dislike the changes that doesn't mean that Harriet or RJ himself would agree with those fans.   She may very well agree with all the changes or like Sanderson agree with most of the changes but not all of them.  There are a range of possible views on her part.

 

 

 

[CaddySedai]

I'm making this topic to continue the threads worth speaking about but getting a smidge off topic. Gonna pull in all the posts so. Be prepared for clutter hehe.

[notpropaganda73]

Something that people would do well to remember is that Harriet has probably seen the full storyboarding or outline for season 1 at the least, so would have a good knowledge as to why the show has gone in the direction it has.

 

Outside of that I find it a little distasteful to talk about really. Robert Jordan is unfortunately no longer with us, we have absolutely no idea how he would feel about the TV show, about how Brandon finished the series, about what he'd think about anything really. The closest person that would know is Harriet, and it's not fair to put anything "on" her in terms of the show, how upset we are about certain things, or any of the rest. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by notpropaganda73

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

The closest person that would know is Harriet, and it's not fair to put anything "on" her in terms of the show, how upset we are about certain things, or any of the rest. 

Well said.

I would also add that it's unfair to imply that she's lying or hiding her true feelings about the show when her public statements on the subject have been positive and full of praise for Rafe and his team.

[KakitaOCU]

Honestly, I don't get the level of arrogance it takes to demand to know "How did Harriet allow this travesty?"  Or the accusation of implication that she's "selling out for money."  (Haven't seen the second one here to my knowledge, but it's a common thread on various places).

I get if a person doesn't like the series, or feels it changes too much.  There's things I really wish they hadn't done, even if I understand exactly why they did them.  But the idea that one's personal opinion is so "Right" that clearly any dissenting opinion is a sign of a person's failure or shallowness is just beyond me.

For better or worse, Harriet is on board.  She's one of the best editors in the industry and she's seen the layout for the show.  That's enough for me to say "The show will be fine and the story will be told."  But even if I was on the other side of the fence and the assorted changes were too much, I'd just not watch.

[Ryrin]

2 hours ago, mogi68 said:

 

Harriet's not really a factor here. RJ sold the rights for TV/Film/Games to Red Eagle in 2004.

 

She is a consulting producer, like Brandon. Even if they opposed various choices, they don't have creative control or any authority over the production team.

The rights to Red Eagle expired and returned back to Harriet.

Red Eagle paid to have a sloppy TV show called “Winter’s Night” air in the middle of the night to extend their rights. There was a legal battle and the rights returned to Harriet at that time with Bandersnatch Group, RJ’s development company.