Let's Talk About Battles!

[Humbugged2]

28 minutes ago, bryce0110 said:

That is interesting if it's that low. I would expect at least 3 times that, but I guess European unions requiring a lower minimum makes sense. The only rates I could find was for MEAA which seemed to be around £100 minimum like you said.

 

But then Daniel Henney would be part of SAG-AFTRA, and so would have to be paid minimum nearly 5 times that. I can't help but wonder if everyone else, except Rosamund, is paid a fraction of what Daniel Henney would have to be paid lol.

 

It's fun to speculate about these things, I don't expect they'll ever release what they were actually paid.

Well the rest are not on a day rate . McElhatton,Alexander are Equity members as is Zuka Hoyle and she got a decent rate for what she did on the show

[Lethira the second]

My (probably) unpopular take on this is;

 

If you cannot do a battle scene and absolutely sell it, you need to work around it and do it off camera, showing the aftermath or select parts.  

 

The episode 4 battle scene in the woods looks poor because it looks empty.  This is where experience comes in and talking to experts. 

 

Early on there is a scene with Karene healing Moiraine where Moiraine mentions she has held off armies in the past.  You then have what 7 Aes Sedai fighting off about 30 soldiers -I can't be bothered to rewatch episode 5 to count the bodies it certainly wasn't a force that should have overwhelmed them.  People pick up on these things, especially when you are telling them the Green Ajah and their warders are something special.

 

 

 

 

[Robert Laurel]

I've actually commanded troops in battle. It gets complicated

[Ralph]

43 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

My (probably) unpopular take on this is;

 

If you cannot do a battle scene and absolutely sell it, you need to work around it and do it off camera, showing the aftermath or select parts.  

 

The episode 4 battle scene in the woods looks poor because it looks empty.  This is where experience comes in and talking to experts. 

 

Early on there is a scene with Karene healing Moiraine where Moiraine mentions she has held off armies in the past.  You then have what 7 Aes Sedai fighting off about 30 soldiers -I can't be bothered to rewatch episode 5 to count the bodies it certainly wasn't a force that should have overwhelmed them.  People pick up on these things, especially when you are telling them the Green Ajah and their warders are something special.

 

 

 

 

They were not being overwhelmed at all. They all had to run to the cave to deal with Logain. And it seems they dealt with the army pretty quickly to do that. Lan tells Stepin to go, and that they are fine without him, and they clearly were. 

 

Liandrin says in the cave that no army can defeat seven full sisters. 

[Andra]

On 1/21/2022 at 4:53 AM, Ralph said:

Liandrin says in the cave that no army can defeat seven full sisters. 

Dumai's Wells called.  They have a message for Liandrin.

And if Valda can have the collection of rings he had, in RafeWorld it must not be that difficult for non-channelers to get the drop on Sisters.

[Skipp]

13 hours ago, Andra said:

Dumai's Wells called.  They have a message for Liandrin.

And if Valda can have the collection of rings he had, in RafeWorld it must not be that difficult for non-channelers to get the drop on Sisters.

I personally take it as an example of Aes Sedai arrogance, not only does she believe they can hold them back but who would dare attack a group of 7 Aes Sedai.

 

But to be fair to Dumai's Wells Aes Sedai, they were holding their own until the Wise Ones(dozens? hundreds?) joined in.  The Shaido were also larger than typical armies were known to be before Rand brought the Aiel across The Dragonwall.

 

As for Valda capturing Aes Sedai we do know all it takes is a sling.  Especially if the Aes Sedai doesn't have a Warder.  While not truly Aes Sedai that was how Egwene, Elyane and Nynaeve were captured by the bandits in tDR.

[Gothic Flame]

10 minutes ago, Skipp said:

As for Valda capturing Aes Sedai we do know all it takes is a sling.  Especially if the Aes Sedai doesn't have a Warder.  While not truly Aes Sedai that was how Egwene, Elyane and Nynaeve were captured by the bandits in tDR.

Your conflating trained Aes Sedai in the show with novices and an accepted in the books.

This falls yet again in the rationalizing of points to gain coherence for the show.

 

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

Your conflating trained Aes Sedai in the show with novices and an accepted in the books.

This falls yet again in the rationalizing of points to gain coherence for the show.

 

Being a fully trained Aes Sedai doesn't necessarily make you more observant.  Of course fully trained Aes Sedai are likely to be much older and presumably wiser with hopefully a Warder or two scouting but being fully trained in the power does not make it so you can detect a sling stone and quicker than an Accepted.

 

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

Being a fully trained Aes Sedai doesn't necessarily make you more observant.  Of course fully trained Aes Sedai are likely to be much older and presumably wiser with hopefully a Warder or two scouting but being fully trained in the power does not make it so you can detect a sling stone and quicker than an Accepted.

 

Lets try this again: you're rationalizing using the book for points in the show...but where are they in the book?

[Andra]

2 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Lets try this again: you're rationalizing using the book for points in the show...but where are they in the book?

I didn't read that comment that way.

I read it as the book showing that Liandrin is arrogant and ignorantly overconfident in the show.

 

But then, that was the intent in my post, so I could just be projecting agreement that doesn't actually exist.

?

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

Lets try this again: you're rationalizing using the book for points in the show...but where are they in the book?

I assume you meant "Where are they in the show", otherwise I apologize and don't exactly know what you are asking for.

 

What we see in the show is that a Whitecloak has captured an Aes Sedai and managed to cut off her hands without getting lit on fire.  This particular Whitecloak has apparently done this 7? 9? times in total. 

 

Without the show giving a direct answer to how this is done I am extrapolating a mundane method this was accomplished using a reference from the books.  There are other methods that Aes Sedai/Channelers are captured in the books but they require less mundane methods.  Lured into a Stedding, Valda is a male channeler who can shield, Valda possesses a OP nullifying ter'angreal, Has access to forkroot tea etc...  These ways of capturing channelers seem less likely for the character as presented but we can't rule them out entirely.

 

So I default to the most mundane way a non channeler can be captured without suffering large losses.  Not exactly a leap in logic.

 

Perhaps the show will further explain exactly how Valda does what he does.

[Andra]

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

I assume you meant "Where are they in the show", otherwise I apologize and don't exactly know what you are asking for.

 

What we see in the show is that a Whitecloak has captured an Aes Sedai and managed to cut off her hands without getting lit on fire.  This particular Whitecloak has apparently done this 7? 9? times in total. 

 

Without the show giving a direct answer to how this is done I am extrapolating a mundane method this was accomplished using a reference from the books.  There are other methods that Aes Sedai/Channelers are captured in the books but they require less mundane methods.  Lured into a Stedding, Valda is a male channeler who can shield, Valda possesses a OP nullifying ter'angreal, Has access to forkroot tea etc...  These ways of capturing channelers seem less likely for the character as presented but we can't rule them out entirely.

 

So I default to the most mundane way a non channeler can be captured without suffering large losses.  Not exactly a leap in logic.

 

Perhaps the show will further explain exactly how Valda does what he does.

And unless one or more of those other methods are what is actually happening, it still doesn't explain a larger point:

The capture and cutting off the hands could certainly have been done when she was knocked out from a rock or other impact to the head.

But she's conscious and (apparently) unshielded when tied to the stake.  How does she allow herself to be burned to death?  In Rafeland is Valda correct that a channeler needs their hands to use the Power?

[Raal Gurniss]

9 minutes ago, Andra said:

And unless one or more of those other methods are what is actually happening, it still doesn't explain a larger point:

The capture and cutting off the hands could certainly have been done when she was knocked out from a rock or other impact to the head.

But she's conscious and (apparently) unshielded when tied to the stake.  How does she allow herself to be burned to death?  In Rafeland is Valda correct that a channeler needs their hands to use the Power?

There are some herbs that cut off access….

[Andra]

22 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

There are some herbs that cut off access….

The only one known in the books is forkroot.  And it doesn't appear until several books in.  But it was one of the "other methods" mentioned.

 

That effect appears to have been discovered completely by accident by one of the Yellow's agents.  A person less likely than most to share the info with Whitecloaks.

[Skipp]

37 minutes ago, Andra said:

And unless one or more of those other methods are what is actually happening, it still doesn't explain a larger point:

The capture and cutting off the hands could certainly have been done when she was knocked out from a rock or other impact to the head.

But she's conscious and (apparently) unshielded when tied to the stake.  How does she allow herself to be burned to death?  In Rafeland is Valda correct that a channeler needs their hands to use the Power?

 

Valda states in the show that a "Witch" once told him that they didn't need their hands to channel and that it was a crutch.  This is how it is for the Aes Sedai in the books, once they learn a specific weave using hand gestures it becomes very difficult to do the same weave without them.  But as the Wise Ones show them they could have learned to weaves without hand motions at all.

 

But beyond that we know that intense pain can prevent the channeler from embracing the source.  Whether from her hands being gone or the concussion of having a sling stone to their head(her head does appear wounded).  I personally believe that this scene is a combination of the two.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Skipp

[ashi]

21 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I personally believe that this scene is a combination of the two.

I find it most likely that they wanted to establish Valda as threatening and dangerous, and that the scene was a convenient way for them to do so. Beyond this, I don't think they have given us any reason to believe that they have (or even thought necessary) a consistent framework that reasonably grounds the situation or the actions of the involved characters.

 

As such, there will likely never be an explanation. Just as there likely never will be explanations for the geographical difficulties that @Andra has pointed out in another thread, or what tell Moiraine happened to have, or why the Seanchans decided to bounce a tsunami against a cliff and girl, et cetera.

 

Cf. the discussion by @king of nowhere and @AdamA in https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/110544-interviews-and-news-articles/?do=findComment&comment=4017831 .

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by ashi

[Raal Gurniss]

25 minutes ago, Andra said:

The only one known in the books is forkroot.  And it doesn't appear until several books in.  But it was one of the "other methods" mentioned.

 

That effect appears to have been discovered completely by accident by one of the Yellow's agents.  A person less likely than most to share the info with Whitecloaks.

The show ain’t the books.

[Skipp]

10 minutes ago, ashi said:

I find it most likely that they wanted to establish Valda as threatening and dangerous, and that the scene was a convenient way for them to do so. Beyond this, I don't think they have given us any reason to believe that they have (or even thought necessary) a consistent framework that reasonably grounds the situation or the actions of the involved characters.

 

As such, there will likely never be an explanation. Just as there likely never will be explanations for the geographical difficulties that @Andra has pointed out in another thread, or what tell Moiraine happened to have, or why the Seanchans decided to bounce a tsunami against a cliff and girl, et cetera.

 

Cf. the discussion by @king of nowhere and @AdamA in https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/110544-interviews-and-news-articles/?do=findComment&comment=4017831 .

 

It is very possible that we won't get an answer to this or the other questions you raised.  But is that an issue for all of them?

 

As a book reader I was able to see how Valda captured and contained the Aes Sedai using book knowlodge and logic.  If they never reveal how he captures his Aes Sedai I have no regrets.

 

My nonreader friends never even questioned it,  Knocked her out and cut of her hands was what they saw and was all they needed.  Maybe they will question this later when it is fully confirmed that you don't need hand gestures to channel but that is a road to cross when we get there.

[ashi]

18 minutes ago, Skipp said:

It is very possible that we won't get an answer to this or the other questions you raised.  But is that an issue for all of them?

An issue for some viewers, perhaps, but not for all (or even most?). Personally, I have difficulties enjoying a scene if it seems to me (which is not to say that it is objectively the case) to be "manufactured" to effect emotion or spectacle with little regard to (or even if it only plays loosely with) consistency and context (and especially character integrity, though that may not be the case with this scene in particular).

 

Interestingly, a friend told me that if a show is able to establish characters, about whose fates it makes her care, she explicitly is able to forgive it [the show] such loose play, not being bothered by it despite seeing it and acknowledging it - whereas I find myself less able to appreciate the characters if they behave inconsistently, or seem to be forced to act as the plot or scene needs them to. I suppose this makes them feel less real to me, while to her their realities are strong enough to hold the rest of the show together.

Edited January 24, 2022 by ashi

[Andra]

1 hour ago, Raal Gurniss said:

The show ain’t the books.

If that isn't the understatement of the decade ...

 

 

 

But let's be clear - in the books, we know of one (and only one) example of "herbs that cut off access."  And the details of that one example make it extremely unlikely that Valda would know about it.

 

In the show, we know of none.

 

Is it possible that in the show we will eventually discover that there are multiple examples, and Valda knows about all of them?  Sure.  Do we know it now?  No.

 

So to say that those examples actually exist before we have reason to know it kind of misses the point.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Andra

[WhiteVeils]

The show doesn't have time to explain everything, and we don't have everything explained in the books either. We extrapolate a ton.  We're just so used to doing it we even take our own extrapolation as fact.  The thing is, we accept all the places we have to extrapolate in the books without question and skip over some of the weaker logic. But when you are predisposed to be against the show, then every spot you might need to extrapolate for the show that isn't direct from the books becomes a fatal flaw, an excuse to explain why the show is bad.  All of these spots... even if they aren't as bad as the book holes, even if there is every chance the holes are filled in and explained later in the series.  You can look to find fault and find it in anything, after all.

 

Once fault is found, and if someone else offers an reasonable extrapolation, that can be dismissed as excuse making.  Because you are where you want to be...the show has confirmed your prior opinion.

I like to find reasons for it...I think the show runner cares, and the show isn't done yet.  Maybe it's not what I expected, and there are things I'd do differently. But I'm sure he set out to make the best show he could and he knows the books better than me and filmmaking much better than me.  So I can let myself enjoy it as what it is.  If it fails, I'll know it by the end.  

[notpropaganda73]

12 hours ago, ashi said:

Interestingly, a friend told me that if a show is able to establish characters, about whose fates it makes her care, she explicitly is able to forgive it [the show] such loose play, not being bothered by it despite seeing it and acknowledging it - whereas I find myself less able to appreciate the characters if they behave inconsistently, or seem to be forced to act as the plot or scene needs them to. I suppose this makes them feel less real to me, while to her their realities are strong enough to hold the rest of the show together.

 

This is actually how I watch most shows. Valda is a really good example of this. I felt his introduction in the show was really well done, he is creepy, sinister and importantly, he's dangerous. To me, that scene set him up as someone to be feared, that channeling does not make you invincible. And so when he meets Moiraine et al on the road, there is a tension to that scene for me because we have already seen what he will do to an Aes Sedai. A big complaint about that meeting is "why didn't Valda just ask straight out if she is Aes Sedai", but I am not really interested in that because the scene works for me regardless as he is being so creepy and sinister. I said it at the time, I think it's in the Whitecloaks thread, but quite simply sometimes the narrative demands something happens. It then comes down to the execution of a scene and that may differ for different people. 

 

I usually find I only start nitpicking at internal logic within a show or book if something more fundamental isn't working for me i.e the characters as a whole. 

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

A big complaint about that meeting is "why didn't Valda just ask straight out if she is Aes Sedai",

Because he doesn't want to confront a possible Aes Sedai and her warder and risk his own life? 

[notpropaganda73]

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Because he doesn't want to confront a possible Aes Sedai and her warder and risk his own life? 

 

I'm not actually making that complaint, and it's been done to death, it was more just an illustration of how I tend to watch film or television. I'm not watching that scene thinking "why doesn't he ask her", I'm watching that scene thinking "This guy is dangerous" and the tension is high. 

[SinisterDeath]

15 hours ago, Andra said:

But she's conscious and (apparently) unshielded when tied to the stake.  How does she allow herself to be burned to death?  In Rafeland is Valda correct that a channeler needs their hands to use the Power?

I seem to recall Egwene or Elayne were unable to channel due to a concussion from a rock to the head. It doesn't matter how well trained an Aes Sedai is, there are certain physical limits they have to deal with.

They may not feel the heat, but they can still die from heat stroke. They may not feel the cold, but they can certainly suffer hypothermia. 

The key to Liandrin's comment is armies ( are noisy), and won't really get the drop on an Aes Sedai. A stealthy guy with a truncheon, sneaking up on a distracted sister? It's a gamble, but it's one of the few ways to take out a channeler as a non-channeler.

The other is to just keep throwing men at a single sister until she tires herself out...