Ch..ch..ch..changes!

[Daenelia]

3 minutes ago, grayavatar said:

Imagine a scarf hanging off your right shoulder while trying to swing your sword around...

 

You might turn around at the sight of the whitecloaks, but lets say they came up against Logain's army minus Logain. With equal numbers who do you think will win?

My bet is on the experienced fighters that survived a war and not the pretty boys who hunt women that can fight back.

We have not seen the Whitecloaks fight. What if there is some ingenious way that the detach the cloaks, or maybe the cloak is attached in some way so it does not sway outwards?

 

Butthe cloaks were too small, you said? And that still confuses me: the cloaks in the books are okay? There it wont impede their fighting?

[grayavatar]

On 12/2/2021 at 12:56 AM, Daenelia said:

Matt has plenty of funny lines. Wot are you on about?

Mat is very bland, wot are you on about? Anyway I'm used to blandMat since Brandon Sanderson took over.

[Daenelia]

1 minute ago, grayavatar said:

Mat is very bland, wot are you on about? Anyway I'm used to blandMat since Brandon Sanderson took over.

I guess that can be your opinion; not everyone has the same sense of humor.

 

I'm not a Sanderson fan myself, but has he written the episode you refer to? If not, why drag him into the disusssion?

 

The Matt you refer to, the Trickster, is mostly an immature teenager in the books, in my eyes. He acts like a lot of teenage boys do, thinking they are funny, witty and smart while actually just being ... annoying ? And that is fine! That is who the character is to me. I still think in the series he is the least mature one, but with his new background a lot of that can be explained. He is clearly damaged by his early years and that is not his fault. 

[grayavatar]

2 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

We have not seen the Whitecloaks fight. What if there is some ingenious way that the detach the cloaks, or maybe the cloak is attached in some way so it does not sway outwards?

 

But the cloaks were too small, you said? And that still confuses me: the cloaks in the books are okay? There it wont impede their fighting?

If Randland had a fashion show catwalk where manscaped models strutted up and down wearing non-functional aesthetic clothing, that would be these Whitecloaks.

[Elder_Haman]

15 minutes ago, grayavatar said:

I'm not sure what I can and can not say anymore.

You can say whatever you'd like, provided you are polite and bring something substantive to the table. For example, this: 

 

16 minutes ago, grayavatar said:

Honestly, they do not look tough at all. They are wearing robes and none/little armor, their grouping is disorganised rather than marching in a column, very little weaponry. Makes me wonder how they even captured that Aes Sedai and cut her hands off. An experienced warder would go through them like a hot knife through butter.

On second look they actually are wearing white cloaks though I use the word loosely. The "cloaks" drape of one shoulder on the sword arms which is a great way for them to get tangled during any serious fight. Perhaps we should start referring to them as Whitescarves?

is absolutely fine. It's a take that invites discussion.

Personally, I'll be interested to see how things develop from here. I definitely understand your point about their tactics. But also remember: when Moiraine and company come across them, the Whitecloaks weren't geared up for a battle. They're just riding. Arms and armor would be carried on their wagons like their real-world counterparts. The Knights Templar didn't ride around armed and armored at all times. I think of their outfits as their dress uniforms for now. I suspect they will be portrayed somewhat differently when they enter battle.

 

As for capturing an Aes Sedai, I'm hoping that's something we get to see them do (or try to do) in the show. I am interested to see what they do in this regard. But I'm willing to be patient and let the show develop this organization at the show's own pace. 

 

 

[grayavatar]

1 minute ago, Daenelia said:

I guess that can be your opinion; not everyone has the same sense of humor.

 

I'm not a Sanderson fan myself, but has he written the episode you refer to? If not, why drag him into the disusssion?

 

The Matt you refer to, the Trickster, is mostly an immature teenager in the books, in my eyes. He acts like a lot of teenage boys do, thinking they are funny, witty and smart while actually just being ... annoying ? And that is fine! That is who the character is to me. I still think in the series he is the least mature one, but with his new background a lot of that can be explained. He is clearly damaged by his early years and that is not his fault. 

The thing is, he is the immature teenager in the early books but becomes more serious and willing or not, he accepts more responsibility as time passes. This is what made his story great.

[WheelofJuke]

I really love what they did with Logain in Ep. 4. So far, that has been the highlight of positive changes. 

 

Obv, as many have previously pointed out, a little bit more "wooing time" for some of the major love interests goes a long way to rectifying a spoty part of the books (i.e., characters just falling in love randomly). 

 

I thought the relationships of the  Warders around the campfire was a nice add, too. Expounded upon the Greens & their Warders theme.

[grayavatar]

On 12/1/2021 at 10:18 AM, templar7 said:

I totally understand how you feel on this, but it's no less Jordan's story really. It's just a different turning if the wheel. I myself was worried that the show would mirror the books too much. Fantasy on screen is a tough sell when balancing realisim and wonder. 

I really don't think they had much choice but to go darker. 

I love the books too, but if they cast 16 year olds and capped the lexicon at Blood and ashes it would just come off like Narnia or Disney/Esq. IMO anyway. But I totally respect your opinion.

If they cast 16 year olds the actors would probably be 30 by the time the series ends. Assuming 1 book per season. Moraine will look 56 so they better film all her scenes now if they want to maintain that ageless look.

[KakitaOCU]

17 minutes ago, grayavatar said:

If Randland had a fashion show catwalk where manscaped models strutted up and down wearing non-functional aesthetic clothing, that would be these Whitecloaks.

But it fits with the books more than you think.  Do a search for Wheel of Time White Cloaks.  a good hunk of the pictures of Galad, of Dain Bornhald and others show a longer cloak draping over the sword arm.

Looking at the image of them confronting Moraine, I don't see anything impeding a sword arm.  I see a white sash going up over the right shoulder, but not interfering with the arm.

I also see a clear sign that they have heavier armor for real battles.  The main tunic is quilted, consistent with a gambeson meant to provide padding and interior support with plate.  Also, the deliberate armor down the left arm matches with a few different armor styles where you use it like a shield.

All in all I see nothing in their uniform that precludes heavier armor when appropriate or that would hinder their sword arms.  (And I say this as someone with a decade of sword training and experience with real armor).

Are your opinions coming from your own experiences or how it looks to you?  

 

  

3 minutes ago, grayavatar said:

If they cast 16 year olds the actors would probably be 30 by the time the series ends. Assuming 1 book per season. Moraine will look 56 so they better film all her scenes now if they want to maintain that ageless look.

It's unlikely they'll film only one book per year, also the show is speculated to go somewhere between 8-12 seasons, not 14/15.  It won't be 1 season per book exact.

Actors have a way of holding a look, nothing mystical, just how it is.  Look at Supernatural.  Sure if you go compare episode 1 to the last episode you can see some difference, but in general Sam and Dean feel like Sam and Dean.  Chuck doesn't look noticeably older from his first appears in season 5 to his final one in the last season.

Lastly, Ageless was dropped for the adaptation.  Same with the Color shifting cloaks and the Myrdraal ignoring the wind.  It's for practical reasons, the price of CGIing every single frame of film for every Aes Sedai, Warder or Fade would be insane.

Edited December 2, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[grayavatar]

2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

But it fits with the books more than you think.  Do a search for Wheel of Time White Cloaks.  a good hunk of the pictures of Galad, of Dain Bornhald and others show a longer cloak draping over the sword arm.

Looking at the image of them confronting Moraine, I don't see anything impeding a sword arm.  I see a white sash going up over the right shoulder, but not interfering with the arm.

I also see a clear sign that they have heavier armor for real battles.  The main tunic is quilted, consistent with a gambeson meant to provide padding and interior support with plate.  Also, the deliberate armor down the left arm matches with a few different armor styles where you use it like a shield.

All in all I see nothing in their uniform that precludes heavier armor when appropriate or that would hinder their sword arms.  (And I say this as someone with a decade of sword training and experience with real armor).

Are your opinions coming from your own experiences or how it looks to you?  

LOL. My experiences? When have I ever traveled for weeks through hostile territory with a sword? What I do know is that I would be wearing my breastplate all the time and not just when I decided it was time to fight. Helmet can be carried on the saddle and quickly be worn. I expect my cloak to be protecting my entire back from the elements and to stay out of the way in a fight for my life. If I were wearing arm armor I would expect it to be attached to something sturdy like my breastplate or a gorget, not cloth.

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, grayavatar said:

When have I ever traveled for weeks through hostile territory with a sword?

Are they in hostile territory? I think you overestimate how often warriors wear their battle gear. It's not everyday wear. 

[KakitaOCU]

11 minutes ago, grayavatar said:

LOL. My experiences? When have I ever traveled for weeks through hostile territory with a sword? What I do know is that I would be wearing my breastplate all the time and not just when I decided it was time to fight. Helmet can be carried on the saddle and quickly be worn. I expect my cloak to be protecting my entire back from the elements and to stay out of the way in a fight for my life. If I were wearing arm armor I would expect it to be attached to something sturdy like my breastplate or a gorget, not cloth.

Alright, just running through those.

1: And wearing that breastplate all the time would tire and wear on you, leaving you slower and less fresh for an actual fight.

2: I agree with Helmets, but that's something visual media has ignored for decades.

3: A Cloak should protect you, but would never be left on in a fight at all.  They're in a nice sunny day, no reason for a cloak to be on right then.  Every cloak I've ever owned was easy to unhook and not tied to my actual clothes, you'd never leave it on in a fight.

4: The Armor is not attached to cloth.  It has heavy white leather straps that go from the shoulder down across the chest, under the opposite arm and back around.

[Scarloc99]

Female characters are more 3 dimensional, Robert Jordan made them important but tended to write them all very much the same in many ways, shrill, stubborn, in some way's irritating. For the time it was a good change for fantasy fiction but re reading Eye of the World now I am realising how flat they seem a lot of the time. 

 

Also loving that so far we haven't had a heaving bossom in sight hoping it remains that way. 

[Theseus78]

I always thought of Whitecloaks as a bunch of bullies more than an actually effective fighting force.  Sure, they have a handful of good strategists, but did we ever see them win a significant battle in the books?

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

Did we see the warders lose?

We did not, but the fight choreography in the warder fight was trash.

 

Granted, Thom's scene was easier to film - only two moving parts (if you don't count Rand and Mat's panicked escape).

[Scarloc99]

On 11/29/2021 at 11:50 PM, dwn said:

I'll 15th the interactions between Lan and Nynaeve--that was poorly telegraphed in TEotW. Actually, Lan's whole personality is fleshed out better. In TEotW there was some early instalment weirdness in that he never seemed fully on board with Moiraine's quest.

 

I think they went a bit too far, but reducing the Shire-like qualities of the TR was a good call.

 

Perrin's set-up is somewhat hamfisted, but it does tie in extremely well with his long-term character arc. Tropes like this are fine by me when they're used effectively.

 

The overall aging up (in personality) of Rand, Mat, Perrin and Egwene works well. I actually think they acted too childish for their ages in the books. This could also help contrast Egwene and Elayne in the future.

 

While it's not necessarily better, The Red Ajah summarily gentling men who can channel recently (not just 20 years ago) makes them far more immediately dangerous, and will likely tie in nicely to the Tower plot arc.

I feel that Lan is one character Robert Jordan changed opinion of during writing. In Book 1 he very much comes across as a copy paste of Aragorn from LOTR and RJ did talk about influences from that book playing a part in WOT. As time went on and the books grew I almost felt like RJ felt he had to make him more 3 dimensional and evolve him otherwise I imagine it would have got really boring writing him. 

 

This is something I like, the fact the writers are looking at characters in the round of the whole series and figuring out that where they are when we first meet them in the books maybe isn't the best place to start them out in the TV series knowing where their journey is going to end. 

[KakitaOCU]

7 minutes ago, Theseus78 said:

I always thought of Whitecloaks as a bunch of bullies more than an actually effective fighting force.  Sure, they have a handful of good strategists, but did we ever see them win a significant battle in the books?

At this point they should be.  Pedron Niall is one of the Great Captains and Elder Bornhald is shown to be competent.  

As I recall their first real loss happens later:
 

Spoiler

At Falme where the WhiteCloaks begin to learn exactly how safe they really were from Aes Sedai vs the One Power actually used in war.

 

[Scarloc99]

On 11/30/2021 at 11:18 PM, templar7 said:

I totally understand how you feel on this, but it's no less Jordan's story really. It's just a different turning if the wheel. I myself was worried that the show would mirror the books too much. Fantasy on screen is a tough sell when balancing realisim and wonder. 

I really don't think they had much choice but to go darker. 

I love the books too, but if they cast 16 year olds and capped the lexicon at Blood and ashes it would just come off like Narnia or Disney/Esq. IMO anyway. But I totally respect your opinion.

If they cast 16 yesr olds this would be wrong, the boys are 19 nearly 20 in the books when they leave Emonds Field one of the things that never sat well with me when I read the books was finding that out, the way they acted I assumed they where 15 years old. Alot is made in the books at the start about how tough it is living out in the wilds of the 2 rivers, on the edge of life, scraping a living in farms that are hard to work and then you have these late teens who act like they have never grown up. That never really made sense to me. Later on as the books become more adult and develop far more Adult themes I always wondered if Robert Jordan had wanted to start out that way but decided to play it safe and write a generic fantasy opening just to get people in. 

 

This I think is the opening RJ would have told if he had written the books now. I don't see this as a different turning of the wheel, this is just an adaptation of the books and one I am starting to enjoy. 

[Katherine]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

But it fits with the books more than you think.  Do a search for Wheel of Time White Cloaks.  a good hunk of the pictures of Galad, of Dain Bornhald and others show a longer cloak draping over the sword arm.
 

I always pictured Knights of Templar uniforms. While different, I think the costumes in the show are far more interesting. 

 

 

[Scarloc99]

2 minutes ago, Katherine said:

I always pictured Knights of Templar uniforms. While different, I think the costumes in the show are far more interesting. 

 

 

For some reason all I can see is a bunch of guys skipping around with people banging coconuts behind them ?. 

 

I think it is perfectly acceptable to assume that Whitecloaks don't always ride round in full armour, especially at the start of the books it always seems that they don't expect to be challenged ever and relied more on their aura and fear then actual weapons and arms, there is a general sense of safety in the lands away from the borderlands and Whitecloaks are the Alpha threat and know it. Later on they realise there are actual monsters roaming and armies that are more powerful. 

[ThroneofTime]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Are they in hostile territory? I think you overestimate how often warriors wear their battle gear. It's not everyday wear. 

Speak for yourself. I daily bear the armor of my lord and keep it polished, my beard trimmed, and my sword sharpened. Smh millennials. 

[Daenelia]

1 hour ago, grayavatar said:

LOL. My experiences? When have I ever traveled for weeks through hostile territory with a sword? What I do know is that I would be wearing my breastplate all the time and not just when I decided it was time to fight. Helmet can be carried on the saddle and quickly be worn. I expect my cloak to be protecting my entire back from the elements and to stay out of the way in a fight for my life. If I were wearing arm armor I would expect it to be attached to something sturdy like my breastplate or a gorget, not cloth.

 

Yeah, well, you'd be stinky and the enemy would smell you before they saw you ?

 

On a side note, I can think of 2 or 3 musea you would really enjoy. One in Amsterdam, with quite a few medieval and renaissane weaponry and armour, and one in Florence, Italy, where a collector in the 1800s amassed a lot of armour and weapons: http://www.museumsinflorence.com/musei/stibbert_museum.html

I know travel is not the best idea right now ... but keep this in mind ?

[Theseus78]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

At this point they should be.  Pedron Niall is one of the Great Captains and Elder Bornhald is shown to be competent.  

As I recall their first real loss happens later:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

At Falme where the WhiteCloaks begin to learn exactly how safe they really were from Aes Sedai vs the One Power actually used in war.

 

Almost like the glory days of the WC are behind them, and the new generation is riding on the coattails of these elder members.  Until Galad gives them that back again.  For the most part, they're bullies who like to play soldier (see how they run their camp lookouts). 

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

 I always wondered if Robert Jordan [...] decided to play it safe and write a generic fantasy opening just to get people in. 

 

This I think is the opening RJ would have told if he had written the books now. I don't see this as a different turning of the wheel, this is just an adaptation of the books and one I am starting to enjoy. 

+1 on this. TEotW feels  different from the rest of WoT, and it does feel generic in all its first part. Rafe is doing right in trying to change things and assert a WoT specificity early on; least this show be panned as yet another LotR ripoff

[WheelofJuke]

As far as the armor conversation: I typically wear only a cod piece when going into battle, so I can't really comment on how armor may or may not attach to cloth. ?