Feminism changes

[Elder_Haman]

3 hours ago, Maximillion said:

like women physically over powering men and such.

When did this happen? Nynaeve ran from a Trolloc in abject terror. She hid out of terror. And when confronted by a situation where she had no other choice, she struck quickly from a position of advantage. 
 

Nynaeve also was easily overpowered by Lan. I’m not loving that she was able to get that close, [it would have been cooler if they’d taken that opportunity to highlight Lan. Like even in the midst of tending Moiraine to have him say, “come no closer Nynaeve.” And find her right at his back.”] But she doesn’t overpower a man. 
 

Dana didn’t physically overpower Rand. She seduced him. Then beat him to his sword because she anticipated him. Holding someone at sword point isn’t the same s overpowering them. 
 

The only other example I can think of is a group of women taking down a single Trolloc. That’s on brand for the Two Rivers. 
 

So while I agree that there have been several examples of women being forward (Egwene’s mom, Dana and Ila get lines), there haven’t been any instances of men being depicted as ineffective buffoons. Valda is evil, but Bornhald was decent. Aram was friendly and kind. 

 

The opening lines about men breaking the world are narrated by Moiraine and are a decent summary of the way Aes Sedai view pre-breaking history. 
 

And Liandrin (and the Red Ajah in general) are canonically misandrists. So her description of what a man does to the power is entirely on brand. She views saidin itself as a fouling of the One Power. 
 

I haven’t seen anything yet that would  make me think this series is being turned into a feminist lecture piece. 
 

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, Daenelia said:

Extremism in a movement does not determin the actual definition of the term feminism.

The actual definition seems driven more by opinion. That's why it's become so loaded a term. 

[Maximillion]

44 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

When did this happen? Nynaeve ran from a Trolloc in abject terror. She hid out of terror. And when confronted by a situation where she had no other choice, she struck quickly from a position of advantage. 
 

Nynaeve also was easily overpowered by Lan. I’m not loving that she was able to get that close, [it would have been cooler if they’d taken that opportunity to highlight Lan. Like even in the midst of tending Moiraine to have him say, “come no closer Nynaeve.” And find her right at his back.”] But she doesn’t overpower a man. 
 

Dana didn’t physically overpower Rand. She seduced him. Then beat him to his sword because she anticipated him. Holding someone at sword point isn’t the same s overpowering them. 
 

The only other example I can think of is a group of women taking down a single Trolloc. That’s on brand for the Two Rivers. 
 

So while I agree that there have been several examples of women being forward (Egwene’s mom, Dana and Ila get lines), there haven’t been any instances of men being depicted as ineffective buffoons. Valda is evil, but Bornhald was decent. Aram was friendly and kind. 

 

The opening lines about men breaking the world are narrated by Moiraine and are a decent summary of the way Aes Sedai view pre-breaking history. 
 

And Liandrin (and the Red Ajah in general) are canonically misandrists. So her description of what a man does to the power is entirely on brand. She views saidin itself as a fouling of the One Power. 
 

I haven’t seen anything yet that would  make me think this series is being turned into a feminist lecture piece. 
 

 

Dude - in the very next sentence I said I don't see that being a problem in what I have seen so far in WoT.

Your last sentence is pretty much in line what I think so far.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Maximillion said:

Your last sentence is pretty much in line what I think so far.

Glad we are on the same page. 

[MasterAblar]

Yes the Aes Sedai are well know for their totally unbiased and objective view of history and male channellers in particular. Its totally shocking that their narration of the sealing of the bore leaves out giant details.

[Beidomon]

11 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

The other thing I would throw out here for everyone to remember here, is that for all the talk of feminism and women's rights and powers, sometime about 10 episodes from now, Egwene is

 

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going to get leashed like a dog. Along with a lot of other "dogs".

 

It will be an even bigger punch in the gut

That’s done by other women though, so it’s fine. See page 113 of the manual. 

[Beidomon]

11 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

And what makes you think so? Saidin and saidar exist in the show. They just have not been mentioned yet.

We don’t know they exist in the show until they are included in the show. Promo shorts don’t count. 

[Elder_Haman]

43 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

We don’t know they exist in the show until they are included in the show. Promo shorts don’t count. 

That seems arbitrary 

[Daenelia]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I've stated many times in this thread and others that every change from books to screen has been a woman swapped in for a man - you don't see that pattern?

 No. Which is why I am going to look at it both ways. I needed to go through the first book again anyway.

[WhiteVeils]

20 hours ago, divica said:

But the problem here is that the books show us rand's perspective and tam and his friend's roles in the village.

The books don't show winternight or have this conversation.

[Deadsy]

It’s actually pretty shocking that someone who has read the books is up in arms about Moiraine’s description. Especially when it’s followed by the Liandrin scene. This is hit you over the head stuff that it isn’t the show writers being hyper feminist; it’s the show writers showing the attitude of the Aes Sedai. It’s absolutely clear from the get go that Liandrin is trouble (same as in the books) and that her attitude about men is wrong. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Deadsy

[WhiteVeils]

On a slightly different but associated topic.

 

I watched this Friday with a good friend who had never read the books. He's a great guy. After the first episode, I asked him what he thought.

He said, "I thought it was really good, but I felt a little uncomfortable with how everyone thinks the world being broken is all men's fault, and how men were unclean and corrupting in some way."

His wife and I both looked at him  and said, without even thinking about it, at the same time, "Welcome to our world."

He blinked for about 2 seconds, and said, "You know...you may have a point there."

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, Beidomon said:

We don’t know they exist in the show until they are included in the show. Promo shorts don’t count. 

 

They exist in the show. That's why in the intro sequence for episode 1, we can't see Liandrin's threads of the power.  That's because we're looking through the eyes of the male channeler (thus we can see his invisible friend), and he can't see her using the One Power.

[JenniferL]

3 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

On a slightly different but associated topic.

 

I watched this Friday with a good friend who had never read the books. He's a great guy. After the first episode, I asked him what he thought.

He said, "I thought it was really good, but I felt a little uncomfortable with how everyone thinks the world being broken is all men's fault, and how men were unclean and corrupting in some way."

His wife and I both looked at him  and said, without even thinking about it, at the same time, "Welcome to our world."

He blinked for about 2 seconds, and said, "You know...you may have a point there."

In the world of the Wheel of Time original sin is attributed to men, not women. 

[DaddyFinn]

18 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

They exist in the show. That's why in the intro sequence for episode 1, we can't see Liandrin's threads of the power.  That's because we're looking through the eyes of the male channeler (thus we can see his invisible friend), and he can't see her using the One Power.

Also Rafe or Rosamund has said that women can't teach men to channel. It's pretty obvious saidin and saidar have not been removed.

[ArrylT]

17 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Also Rafe or Rosamund has said that women can't teach men to channel. It's pretty obvious saidin and saidar have not been removed.

@nicki_minajah just shared on a different thread a photo of extra content that 100% confirms this.  Saidin & Saidar remain as is.   It is not that suprising to me that after an extended time when you've been hunting down anyone who could channel saidin you could feel like the one power belongs to you - like how the Red Ajah are portrayed in that opening sequence (imho).  

Edited November 21, 2021 by ArrylT
spelling edit

[nicki_minajah]

5 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

@nicki_minajah just shared on a different thread a photo of extra content that 100% confirms this.  Saidin & Saidar remain as is.   It is not that suprising to me that after an extended time when you've been hunting down anyone who could channel saidin you could feel like the one power belongs to you - like how the Red Ajah are portrayed in that opening sequence (imho).  

 

@ArrylT thank you for this! It makes sense, too, next to something pointed out on Dragonmount's live stream discussion yesterday: maybe the show-runners are wary of overwhelming new-to-WOT viewers with a ton of lore in moment 1 of episode 1. ?

[TheChief]

Oh dear - reading this is so discouraging. I hear a lot of people complaining about "feminist agenda". 

 

Please don't talk about the "feminist agenda" until you've read at least 3 books about feminist philosophy (by different authors).  It sounds to me like some of you have a lot of wrong ideas about what feminism is.

 

In my many years of experience working and living with truly powerful (professionally and emotionally) and empowered feminist women, they don't act like women from the red ajah. They do try to lift up other women, (professional mentoring, advice, support), and they do name anti-woman words and actions when they see them. Feminists fight for things like free birth control, equal wages, and a work environment where it's not okay for the boss to stare at your boobs. That's the feminist agenda, not replacing one minor male character as the inn owner with another minor female character.

 

Chill out - the feminists aren't coming for you stones. They are too busy with other, more important, things.

 

 

[TheChief]

And in addition...

 

Rafe being a feminist probably affects the show in these ways:

 

Female and male actors with similar professional experience and screen time get paid the same, and get the same perks;

 

Female actors didn't have couch auditions a la Weinstein;

 

You won't see any anti-women stereotypical characters or plot set ups.

 

You probably won't see any lady spanking unless there is equal time given for gentleman spanking.

 

I know the lady spanking might be a hard thing to give up for some, as a few people probably really enjoy that and were hoping to see it on screen. You always have the books to refer to when you feel the need to visualize it. And I'm sure you can find something on the internet to watch that approximates it.?

[nicki_minajah]

20 minutes ago, TheChief said:

You probably won't see any lady spanking unless there is equal time given for gentleman spanking.

 

Paging Cadsuane

[Ryan al'Thor]

There HAS to be tbe Mat spanking Joline scene, i know tbats a long way off, but even so...

[Starganderfish]

43 minutes ago, TheChief said:

You won't see any anti-women stereotypical characters or plot set ups.

Cough, cough … Perrin’s dead wife… cough cough. 
TV Tropes - Stuffed into the Fridge

[JenniferL]

1 hour ago, Ryan al'Thor said:

There HAS to be tbe Mat spanking Joline scene, i know tbats a long way off, but even so...

No, there does not. 

[JenniferL]

Just a heads up, if you notice your posts disappearing, the correct response is not to repost the same thing over and over again. Try reflecting on what you said and whether or not this is the right place for it. 

[Beidomon]

6 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

On a slightly different but associated topic.

 

I watched this Friday with a good friend who had never read the books. He's a great guy. After the first episode, I asked him what he thought.

He said, "I thought it was really good, but I felt a little uncomfortable with how everyone thinks the world being broken is all men's fault, and how men were unclean and corrupting in some way."

His wife and I both looked at him  and said, without even thinking about it, at the same time, "Welcome to our world."

He blinked for about 2 seconds, and said, "You know...you may have a point there."

You really showed him. Yes, this world is full of people who think the world being broken is all women’s fault and they are unclean and corrupting.