How did the show hold up for you?

[fra85uk]

Well, it was that bad...

Anyway it also appears that the wall of toxic positivity on reddit is crumbled and, even on the subs most tenaciously defending the show, the stream of criticism is flowing wild which reminds me that  "No man can walk so long in the Shadow that he cannot come again to the Light"

 

 

[grayavatar]

I firmly believe that a more experienced team would have created a much better production, an exciting rollercoaster ride that would have ended the series with a battle victory that had all of Fal Dara cheering!

 

Instead it was another dull sad moment that was similar to most of the rest of the show. Very anticlimactic and dissatisfying.

 

I have not watched all the episodes multiple times, don't really want to, but my memory of the show feels like about 5 scenes per episode that on the whole did little to progress the story. Many scenes were too long and inappropriate to the story and to the time constraints. Many episodes left me wondering how they managed to fill 1 hour of time. Like the teacher asks for a 1 page report so you just make the font really big to fill up the page ?

 

So far the story is that a bunch of sullen villagers are taken from their village to Shadar Logoth, They then travel to the blight via Tar Valon. Along the way they meet gypsies for a couple of scenes, whitescarves for a couple of scenes, and a singing cowboy for a couple of scenes. Along the way a bunch of inane stuff happens. It takes 8 hours of screentime.

 

Lighting, scene setup and camera angles where bad in many instances. Some CGI was good but some should not have been signed off on. Editing and pacing was terrible and I think many agree on this point. The prime example being Lan teleporting from sitting eating dinner with a family to suddenly being behind Nynaeve outside the house. "Hello there!"

 

Did you like Mat fighting Gawyn and Galad? The battle at Falme? Dumais Wells? The Two Rivers battle? Do you really feel this show will do any of those epic scenes any justice? Just look at how the eye of the world and tarwins gap were portrayed...

 

Many things happened that would not ever have happened in the books. Warders lounging by the fire getting drunk before, double teaming their Aes Sedai, instead of being on watch? The dragonsworn army should have been spotted with a great deal of warning.

The Amyrlin Seat enslaving an Aes Sedai as punishment for a misdemeanor? The Amyrlin seat declaring she is the king of the world? Pointing out an Aes Sedai's noble birth, like they did not all work hard for years as Novices and Accepted to get where they are today. They all scrubbed pots and visited the Mistress of Novices. Any Aes Sedai in the room should have been furious at this!

Moraine would have had a separate audience as she was not part of the mission to capture Logain. Why was she even in the room? Gentling Logain was purely on Liandrin's shoulders. The Aes Sedai were made to look stupid for the entirety of the show. I don't think any of them said or did anything smart. None of this was clever writing.

Agelmar is now a fool rather than a famous Great Captain who has been fighting Trollocs his whole life?

Rafe says he is a feminist, but in his attempt to portray strong women he has made all the men seem like stupid weaklings. Instead of righting the ship he is sinking it in the other direction. This isn't equality.

 

NO maiden of the spear is going to win against 5 elite troops, especially not if she had lived a pampered life in a palace for most of her life, add to this the fact that she was actively giving birth at the time. Rafe said this scene was "badass" I say it was ridiculous and wildly inappropriate for that character at that point in time. Why didn't we see any "badass" scenes for Lan?!

 

Important CORE concepts that make the world of WoT unique are missing.

1. Saidin and Saidar are male and female and only good things can happen when they work together. This is also reflected in other aspects of society in the books. ie village council and women's circle. But we can't actually have the one power separated by gender in the show because it is binary and we don't want to mention such things anymore so we destroy the story instead.

2. The Dragon Reborn is MALE. This creates the core dilemma in the story. The Dragon Reborn is needed to save the world but he is a male chaneller who could go insane and destroy you. So it creates this situation where you have no choice but to support him even though it could be your doom. Anyone supporting him is knowingly putting themselves in danger. For this reason, any mention of a female Dragon Reborn really hurts the story.

 

Very little makes sense and little reason is given for anything that is happening. Who are the characters and why should we care, where are they going and what are they doing and why is it important? Don't worry we must move now, I'll tell you later... promise.

 

 

I've been rewatching Witcher season 1 and the difference in storytelling and production quality is astounding. In every way !

 

 

[Weird_Old_Lady]

My kids and I are going to keep watching. We are a mixed bag of long-time fans, new readers, and people who will never read these books. We are having a good time with it.

 

Personally, as a weird old lady who has loved Nynaeve since 1995 but also thought she was a bit unrealisticly 'too much' in the books, I fell in total and complete love with Zoë Robins' interpretation of the character. I also really like the changes to Thom. I don't know why, I just do. I forgive most of the changes they've done as I feel it keeps me just uncertain enough about what happens next even though I've read the books a few times. So it has me hooked. I give 8/10.

 

My youngest kid is only allowed to see the intro part with the threads and stuff. But he loves the music and says it gives him goosebumps so he gives it 10/10. ??

 

We decided to average out for everyone else. So for 6 teens the average was 7/10, with only one who is really upset about the changes to Lan and might not watch next season.

 

 

[grayavatar]

11 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

Thats a good catch if true, but that’s an awfully thin reed….

 

Speaking of the LT scene, that coulda been great, but the scene was ruined because there was zero urgency. They were losing the war. The Aes Sedai we’re desperate. None of that is evinced or explained. Instead they could have been having a casual brunch. Also calling LT the Dragon Reborn? Dammit this is EASY stuff. How is this kinda stuff not getting caught during the writing process?

Don't forget "the Tamyrlin Seat"

[merlinfire]

Lurker here, want to give you my opinion for what it's worth

 

big fan of the books, read the whole series multiple times

 

was very excited to see it on-screen

 

But nearly every episode featured disappointment after disappointment

 

I am not certain I have ever seen a hollywood adaptation so utterly massacre its source material

 

95% of the backstory and tension from the books was just cut

 

multiple major characters were cut

 

the entire city of camelyn was cut, which featured some of the best Rand-focused content in the first book, as well as Elayne who is pretty important

 

accepting the fact that they had to condense it, ok, but then why focus on things that weren't in the book?  we had an entire episode about Logain and the Ghaldeans.  why?  we had a whole episode dedicated to a minor warder and suicide in the white tower.  why?  what's this hollywood nonsense about moraine and siuan having a romantic relationship?  why take the time to add stuff when you are telling me you had to cut stuff because you didn't have time?  the truth is, they didn't have time for the book....but they had time to insert their own personal garbage.  meh.  

 

most of the main characters barely got any screen time.  

 

i stopped watching at Flame of Tar Valon because I knew then that it wasn't getting better.  if they would change something so foundational, they would change a lot more.  and from what i'm hearing, i was right.  

 

took a story to rival or exceed tolkien's works, from which were adapted some of the most classic fantasy films of all time, and pumped out some hot garbage.  thought they were better than jordan, i guess.  well it's obvious they were wrong about that.  i'm just disappointed.  whenever we have a bomb like this there's the fear that "you just can't satisfy this fanbase, so why try".  i get why a lot of you wanted to like it, wanted it to succeed.  i did too.  but not this tam-on-the-quarry-road fever dream.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by merlinfire

[WoTwasThat]

2 hours ago, merlinfire said:

I am not certain I have ever seen a hollywood adaptation so utterly massacre its source material

 

Did you see The Dark Tower. This “adaptation” rivals DT in horrific awfulness. 

 

2 hours ago, merlinfire said:

i stopped watching at Flame of Tar Valon because I knew then that it wasn't getting better.  if they would change something so foundational, they would change a lot more.  and from what i'm hearing, i was right. 

That was wise. It got worse and worse as they changed more and more. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by WoTwasThat

[WoTwasThat]

6 hours ago, grayavatar said:

Rafe says he is a feminist, but in his attempt to portray strong women he has made all the men seem like stupid weaklings. Instead of righting the ship he is sinking it in the other direction. This isn't equality.

 

NO maiden of the spear is going to win against 5 elite troops, especially not if she had lived a pampered life in a palace for most of her life, add to this the fact that she was actively giving birth at the time. Rafe said this scene was "badass" I say it was ridiculous and wildly inappropriate for that character at that point in time. Why didn't we see any "badass" scenes for Lan?!

 

Important CORE concepts that make the world of WoT unique are missing.

1. Saidin and Saidar are male and female and only good things can happen when they work together. This is also reflected in other aspects of society in the books. ie village council and women's circle. But we can't actually have the one power separated by gender in the show because it is binary and we don't want to mention such things anymore so we destroy the story instead.

2. The Dragon Reborn is MALE. This creates the core dilemma in the story. The Dragon Reborn is needed to save the world but he is a male chaneller who could go insane and destroy you. So it creates this situation where you have no choice but to support him even though it could be your doom. Anyone supporting him is knowingly putting themselves in danger. For this reason, any mention of a female Dragon Reborn really hurts the story.

 

Yeah good take here. The “DR could be female” is a serious change with serious ramifications. It seriously undermines the conflict you explain above, which really undergirded the whole series. 
 

And I question if you might be right, as crazy as it sounds…. Did they eliminate the Saidar / Saidin dichotomy because they were worried it would be too confusing, or too binary?! Either way, terrible decision. 

[Apoc81]

9 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Angry hardcore book fans have just review bombed it worse than any other episode. It is obviously neither 10/10 nor 1/10

 

Angry book fans are angry for a reason. It's  not review bombing, its truth. Id give episode 8 a 2/10, 3/10 if I was in a really good mood.

 

The show has been butchered, im done. Judkins should be fired, and Harriet never should have allowed this to happen. It's incredibly saddening.

[WoTwasThat]

10 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Angry hardcore book fans have just review bombed it worse than any other episode. It is obviously neither 10/10 nor 1/10

 

I’d say the 1/10 “review bombs” are just as legitimate, and probably more legitimate, than the 10/10 reviews. I say that because I kinda suspect a significant portion of the glowing WOT reviews are bot-generated. You don’t think Amazon is trying to goose the ratings for its $100MM investment? They are.

 

To your point about the show being neither 1/10 or 10/10, as human beings we tend to make binary evaluations. People are just giving a thumbs up or thumbs down. Many of the 1/10 reviewers are trying to offset what they view as ridiculous 10/10 reviews, and vice versa.

 

Overall, the number of “hate it” reviews on Prime, IMDB, Rotten, etc. is significant. 

[Elayas]

10 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Angry hardcore book fans have just review bombed it worse than any other episode. It is obviously neither 10/10 nor 1/10

 

 

The fans are not review bombing.  It sucked and is warranted

Edited December 27, 2021 by Elayas

[Sunkiss]

I am a non reader, and I like the show but E8 was disappointing to me. E7 was good and I couldn't wait for E8. After watching it I was left puzzled. Not reading the books I really have nothing to compare to. I understand from reading the comments that the book is about the 5 kids of two rivers, but I really love Moraine character and Matt. Nan is my least favorite character, but the way the show is depicting her she is centered and looks like she is the most powerful.  Even Moraine looks like her knowledge is not of much use. Lessening her importance and the Aes. I get that things have to cut but like most have said they need more episodes to explain and develope the characters more. I mean if Rand is the main character he should be focus more not Nan. I like the Moraine idea, since she is the best actress and somewhat the leader.  Not reading the book tho I don't know how much attention was given to Moraine.

[Chivalry]

Up until now, I've been very happy to see the positive reviews, the score on RT, IMDB...the better the buzz, the more likely others watch, the more likely the show continues, the more likely Amazon spends more money on the adaptation. This is all great, as I love the WOT, it's my favorite fantasy series by far. 

 

But there is definitely value in passionate fans helping to drop the review/score. That final episode was not good (the worst episode yet), and the WOT team need to spend considerable time reviewing the criticism and improving the story going forward. It shouldn't be all accolades and applause, even if Rafe manages to sneak in a beloved line or two from the books.

[WoTwasThat]

8 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

But there is definitely value in passionate fans helping to drop the review/score. That final episode was not good (the worst episode yet), and the WOT team need to spend considerable time reviewing the criticism and improving the story going forward. It shouldn't be all accolades and applause, even if Rafe manages to sneak in a beloved line or two from the books.

I really do think it’s too late for that. Season 2 is already written and being filmed. And they’ve changed so much already that it’s gonna be nigh impossible to “get back to the books” at this point. 

[WoTwasThat]

16 minutes ago, Sunkiss said:

I am a non reader, and I like the show but E8 was disappointing to me. E7 was good and I couldn't wait for E8. After watching it I was left puzzled. Not reading the books I really have nothing to compare to. I understand from reading the comments that the book is about the 5 kids of two rivers, but I really love Moraine character and Matt. Nan is my least favorite character, but the way the show is depicting her she is centered and looks like she is the most powerful.  Even Moraine looks like her knowledge is not of much use. Lessening her importance and the Aes. I get that things have to cut but like most have said they need more episodes to explain and develope the characters more. I mean if Rand is the main character he should be focus more not Nan. I like the Moraine idea, since she is the best actress and somewhat the leader.  Not reading the book tho I don't know how much attention was given to Moraine.

Read the first book. I think you’ll find the story to be vastly better than the show. Check back in with your thoughts. And Mo is a great character featured prominently in the early books. 

[Chivalry]

10 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Angry hardcore book fans have just review bombed it worse than any other episode. It is obviously neither 10/10 nor 1/10

 

 

I'd put the entire season at 7/10 (would have been higher, until that final episode). I'd put the final episode at closer to 5-6/10...pretty close to the composite review there.

 

I'm definitely biased, but it works both ways. It's probably the same for many other fans.

 

I love the WOT, so I'll overlook plot holes, weak CGI, and even inconsistent writing because of my love for the material. At the same time, I can be more critical in other aspects...so when I see changes in characters I'm attached to, it upsets me more than it might non-readers. All of this will affect how I rate the show.

 

No doubt, people who've read the books are inherently biased about the show, but this bias can manifest in different ways in different people.

 

 

[Chivalry]

3 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

I really do think it’s too late for that. Season 2 is already written and being filmed. And they’ve changed so much already that it’s gonna be nigh impossible to “get back to the books” at this point. 

 

Still, careful editing and re-shoots can potentially improve the show. It can help erase inconsistencies (ie ? LTT as Dragon Reborn vs the Dragon), Nynaeve "teaching" Lan how to track his partner, etc.

[Mike Grier]

I am full of sadness.

 

I just repeatedly looked the other way for each episode as we saw parts of the story brought out for the dog-and-pony-show. But also constantly confused and saddened by both what was omitted as well as what was changed.

 

I was kind of OK with the first episode rearranging the introduction of the characters, but... Perrin's married? Wha? Mat's an actual scoundrel? Rand and Egwene are doing what? But they are nice kids!

 

Complete lack of mystery about Moirane and Lan but yeah, we're compressed on time. Where's Thom?

 

From there it just was a mass of chaos. Dashing quickly from Emmon's Field, check. But the stealth to avoid detection? Lan's expertise as a hunter was not on display, so that Nynaeve's circumvetion of it was not really on display as it could have been.

 

Credit where credit is due, I think that most of how they spun Nynaeve's story was quite good, although I did expect to see some braid pulling and serious sniffing.

 

Wasn't Moiraine's name clearly called out in the pronunciation guide as "mwah-raine"?

 

Saidar/Saidin. Grumble grumble. This is bad.

 

Meeting the Whitecloaks this early? OK, they're jerks. Amplifying the hunting of Aes Sedai, yeah, whatevs.

 

Shadar Logoth. What a cluster f. A pivotal moment. No wards around where they are resting. No real warnings about the problems there. No meeting with the personification of Mashdar. Mat taking the dagger because of his inclinations to steal rather than because he felt it was a payment for his work.

 

Ummm... where's Elaine? Meeting her, climbing the wall? Sleeping under hedges with Mat? Rand's a good boy, what the heck is going on with him?

 

And Perrin? OMG! Needless!

 

The ways in like 15 minutes?

 

OK I'm going to stop now, my sadness is deepening. I can only play Stardew Valley nowadays.

 

 

 

[Spiritweaver1]

I leave you all with one final thought. 

All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost;

The old that is strong does not wither,

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

The crownless again shall be king.

And perhaps Rafe and the team can learn to write.   The show may yet sing!

 

[EchoSnowman]

Well... I just finished the last episode of season 1...I started out in the "oh this looks good visually, not sure on that change though" camp.... ended up at "good God did these idiots even bother reading a chapter let alone the whole book" side of things... 

 

Basically, they took a world that had been built over the course of a couple decades... has a raving fan base... was solid argueably flawless in its backstory/magic system/history/lore etc... and set that on fire like Jimmy Hendrix's guitar...

Decided they know better and just make changes for the sake of changing something or making it "equitable" (The Dragon, a woman...really??).....

 

Truly, I only made it to the end of season one to see if they were going to truly try to do the whole book series in one season...

 

Right now Jordan is working on digging himself out so he can moan and shamble to the studio and slap the taste out of the Director and writer's mouths...

Edited December 27, 2021 by EchoSnowman

[Captain Panda]

I tried going in with an open mind, and I know that the books aren't going to be adhered to... hell, there are even some things in the books I'd like to see changed! But wow, that was a huge disappointment.

[Raal Gurniss]

6 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I leave you all with one final thought. 

All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost;

The old that is strong does not wither,

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

The crownless again shall be king.

And perhaps Rafe and the team can learn to write.   The show may yet sing!

 

 

7 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

Read the first book. I think you’ll find the story to be vastly better than the show. Check back in with your thoughts. And Mo is a great character featured prominently in the early books. 

Many people prefer the show to the book…Weird I know, I personally don’t understand how unless they haven’t actually read more than a chapter or three of the book,  just like the show’s directors.

[ilovezam]

1 hour ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Many people prefer the show to the book…Weird I know, I personally don’t understand how unless they haven’t actually read more than a chapter or three of the book,  just like the show’s directors.

 

Well that's because the books didn't have 7 chapters dedicated to Steppin's depression and funeral scenes!

[EmreY]

9 hours ago, Chivalry said:

No doubt, people who've read the books are inherently biased about the show, but this bias can manifest in different ways in different people.

 

 

Indeed.  I had no idea people were so attached to the books.  And I suppose some will be surprised that I'm not.

[grayavatar]

2 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

 

Many people prefer the show to the book…Weird I know, I personally don’t understand how unless they haven’t actually read more than a chapter or three of the book,  just like the show’s directors.

I still wonder at how people say the show is good in any way. It makes me feel like I am insane.

For Example. People say they liked episode 7. What I remember of it is that they escape the ways and meet the Lord of Fal Dara who is upset at having an Aes Sedai in his city when Trollocs are about to attack. Then they all have a bitch session after dinner, love triangle YA BS included. Lan teleports and then Nynaeve gets promiscious. Nynaeve! Then there is a tiny bit where Rand says, "Oh BTW I'm the Dragon Reborn" They ruined the entire season for this pathetic reveal! A ONE HOUR episode and almost nothing to move the story along!

Next episode Lan is still standing around spouting poetry when in reality he would have been on a horse, racing for the Blight. If it were me I would have had Lan go in ep7 and then started the Trolloc siege on Tarwin's gap immediately in ep8.

[dielsalder]

I'll start by saying I've read The Eye of the World well over 20 times in the last 30 years, I'm kind of a fan and I haven't been looking forward to the show. I knew it would have to be heavily paired down in order to make a show that didn't take 30 episode for the book. I was ready for deletions and shortcuts. I didn't like them when I started watching, but I understood they were 'needed'. What I wasn't prepared for was loads of time wasted on made up junk that doesn't happen. Obviously not a single writer cared about ruining one of the best pieces of fiction written in our lives.

 

I stopped watching the final episode before it ended and am not going to watch this lame show again. I'm considering canceling my Amazon Prime. The filming, acting, and special effects are good but the story is hot garbage. With that said- Micheal Clarkson, Paul Clarkson, Rafe Judkins, Celine Song, Amanda Kate Shuman, Justine Juel Gillmer, Dave Hill, Katherine B. McKenna, and Kameron Hood are all hacks and have committed crimes against great fiction. They're like dogs trying to rewrite Shakespeare by rolling in their excrement. This show should go the way of the Legend of the Seeker- canceled and hated by fans of the books. 

 

The show is a black mark on Jordan's legacy. Sad.