How did the show hold up for you?

[DaddyFinn]

6 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

These showrunners DO NOT LIKE WoT

What is the point with statements like this?

[Scarloc99]

24 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Only see the threat against Thom.

The three caballeros she keeps at the bit " I intend to see you safely in Tar Valon" the implications isn't as pleasant as it seems however as it sounds threatening.

I will have to dig the book out later and find the exact moments and quotes, it is chapters 11,12 or 13 but there is def a moment where he and morraine make it clear they will kill the boys before they let the Darklord have them. he also makes it clear that Morraine comes first for him, and their safety is only secondary. 

[fra85uk]

7 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

What is the point with statements like this?

They do not like the source material enough to follow it with minimal changes in characters/plot/lore.

That's it. Otherwise, they would have, for example, trusted the book characters and used book-Mat or book-Tom and not come out with the young depressed guy from a broken home and the cowboy/folk-singer. And i could go on for a loooooooong post.

They like the stuff they invented like Dana the poor bartender/Darkfriend and Stepin. I imagine them in the writing room saying "oh we need to put something about Rand in the episode...what a pain".
By the way, I hope they continue adding new characters and their stuff, because those scenes are at least not rushed and better filmed/edited, it is clear that they care about them much more than, e.g., Loial, Rand etc etc.

Edited December 5, 2021 by fra85uk

[Gothic Flame]

14 minutes ago, Ralph said:

EotW ch 13

 

  “Is that the way you all feel? You are all eager to run off to Illian and forget about Trollocs, and Halfmen, and Draghkar?” She ran her eyes over them—that stony glint playing against the everyday tone of voice made Rand uneasy—but she gave no one a chance to speak. “The Dark One is after you three, one or all, and if I let you go running off wherever you want to go, he will take you. Whatever the Dark One wants, I oppose, so hear this and know it true. Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself.”

  It was her voice, so matter-of-fact, that convinced Rand. The Aes Sedai would do exactly what she said, if she thought it was necessary. 

Okay...harsh, yet somehow reassuring. 

[Scarloc99]

9 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

This is the problem.

These showrunners DO NOT LIKE WoT and think they can "fix" it. 

I haver to say as much as I love the books, and I love the world RJ wrote, there are aspects of his writing and prose that I think need to be improved for a TV adaptation, heaving Bosoms, his description of female characters, the way almost all the men see women as interfering and refusing to accept help, and almost all women see men as wool headed and only making bad decisions. There are aspects of it that don't translate well to the current times, and it is ok to change these aspects RJ was ahead of his time in the 90's in how he presented women in a fantasy setting, if he was writing the books now I imagine he himself would change much of the way he presented certain characterisations and how he wrote them without fundamentally changing the story because some of what he wrote that was ahead of the time for the 90's is now considered behind the times in how it is written. RJ was ahead of the times so, his writing would change. 

[fra85uk]

5 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I haver to say as much as I love the books, and I love the world RJ wrote, there are aspects of his writing and prose that I think need to be improved for a TV adaptation, heaving Bosoms, his description of female characters, the way almost all the men see women as interfering and refusing to accept help, and almost all women see men as wool headed and only making bad decisions. There are aspects of it that don't translate well to the current times, and it is ok to change these aspects RJ was ahead of his time in the 90's in how he presented women in a fantasy setting, if he was writing the books now I imagine he himself would change much of the way he presented certain characterisations and how he wrote them without fundamentally changing the story because some of what he wrote that was ahead of the time for the 90's is now considered behind the times in how it is written. RJ was ahead of the times so, his writing would change. 

 

I don't know what RJ would write today, but I know and love what he has written and the whole "this is what he would have written today" by Rafe Judkins, the Survivor contestant, does not convince me.

 

I started with a very open mindset on WoT  adaptation, knowing that changes would have been unavoidable, but this show is too much a betrayer of hope 

 

[Vambram]

1 minute ago, Yojimbo said:

Rafe has decided that Robert Jordan's version of the WoT isn't good enough, so he's written Survivor: Randland instead.  

 

If what you believe is true, then how is it possible that RJ's wife is approving Rafe's adaptation of her husband's beloved legacy? 

Every interview of her that I've seen shows she is very pleased with this TV show. 

[shiningwalls]

51 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

What has Rafe actually changed in terms of the lore, not what scenes has he added, but what has he actually changed. Some are assuming he has made it that the Dragon can be a women, when he has said several times that no, it is just that the Aes Sedai don't understand how the wheel works and think the Dragon could be a women. That does not mean the lore has changed. 

 

Rafe has, over 5 episodes, got most of the main characters including Loial and Padin to Tar Valon, and I imagine next episode will get Perrin and Egwene there as well. Mat has the knife and is suffering from it's effects, Thom is missing presumed dead, Logain is Gentled ready to be healed by Nyn so he can help Rand, Perrin is starting to realise he understands wolves and we know Shades, Trollocs, Darkfriends Aes Sedai and Warders exist. We also understand the Bond between a Warder and an Aes Sedai a bit more. 

He has given hints as to the sexual nature RJ added in later on, with suggestions of 3 somes and the scene between Egwene and Rand, in the books none of this happens until later on and then, bang we are presented with rapes, and orgies, and other events that could be filmed in a way to make GOT look positively child friendly (I don't think they will, I think there will be a lot of James Bond style camera panning away moments). 

 

So tell me after 5 episodes what has Rafe missed out in telling the story that needs to be told? How Rand gets to the last battle and beats the Dark One? Because so far he has hit every story beat up to this point in the book. Now you might dislike how he has done it, but, I would argue another writer might do it in a way you like, but then upset the readers who are enjoying it. Because the most succesful adaptations upset people, the worst ones try to please everyone and become an incomprehensible mess that try to please everyone and end up worse for it, and more importantly to Amazon, upset the millions and millions who have never read the books but are tuning in every Friday to watch the next episode. The series is ultimately theirs, not ours as readers, because there are not enough of us to make it financially viable to film the Wheel of time. 

 

You have a reductionist and simplistic view of what a story is. Just because you get a certain set of people at a certain place at a certain time doing certain things to “hit” every plot point doesn’t make it a compelling story. The details matter, especially details that show how the characters develop along their paths. You make it seem as though the overriding goal of the narrative is simply to get the characters in place to fight the Last Battle. But a work of fiction is not a video game; it’s not a race to the final boss battle, it’s the journey that makes the story. In fact, the WoT novels are a perfect demonstration of this because the ending is actually already revealed from the start. The reader is told and continually reminded, through countless prophecies, that the Dragon will defeat the Dark One (it must be so because of the cyclical nature of the fictional cosmology). What remains is therefore to find out HOW; to find out how, for example, a callow young shepherd from a backwater grows and changes and becomes the powerful leader and messianic figure that he needs to be. If every fantasy series were boiled down to the plot essentials, they would all tell basically the same story.

 

As I emphasized in my original post, I do not object to trimming the original source material to fit the constraints of the TV series running time. Merely trimming would still leave a rich trove of details, stories and characterization to work with. Countless scenes from the books could easily be lifted with minimal revision to convey the original vision of Robert Jordan. What is mindboggling is the sheer amount of screen time devoted to made-up shit that is totally absent from the books and totally new to the TV show.

 

There are so many examples from each episode that have no satisfactory explanation. For example, what is showing Moiraine and Lan sharing a hot bath supposed to accomplish? Does it reveal any significant aspect of their characters? Does it “hit” a “story beat” that explains how they’ll eventually defeat the Dark One? It doesn’t come from the books, and yet as a fabrication for TV doesn’t seem to advance plot or character either. It’s gratuitous and yet also tonally misplaced.

 

Compare that with the scenes in The Great Hunt which refer to the Shienaran practice of unisex public baths; there it is obviously

both a device for world building (it fleshes out the customs of the Shienaran people and creates opportunities for cross-cultural friction) and for characterization – it shows that the Two Rivers folk are conservative about nudity, cross-gender mingling, it emphasizes the youthful innocence and bashfulness of the characters.

[DaddyFinn]

46 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

They do not like the source material enough to follow it with minimal changes in characters/plot/lore.

That's it. Otherwise, they would have, for example, trusted the book characters and used book-Mat or book-Tom and not come out with the young depressed guy from a broken home and the cowboy/folk-singer. And i could go on for a loooooooong post.

They like the stuff they invented like Dana the poor bartender/Darkfriend and Stepin. I imagine them in the writing room saying "oh we need to put something about Rand in the episode...what a pain".
By the way, I hope they continue adding new characters and their stuff, because those scenes are at least not rushed and better filmed/edited, it is clear that they care about them much more than, e.g., Loial, Rand etc etc.

Too bad the show has a budget and other constraints and therefore can't be a 20 episode 10 season behemoth 

[Yojimbo]

16 minutes ago, GanoesParan said:

 

If what you believe is true, then how is it possible that RJ's wife is approving Rafe's adaptation of her husband's beloved legacy? 

Every interview of her that I've seen shows she is very pleased with this TV show. 

And what do you expect her to say; that this is dreadful and her husband would be appalled at what Raee has done to his life's work?   That would be a great way to kill any chance of this ever getting fixed (small chance of that anyway with this writing team) or another adaptation every getting made. 

[mogi68]

I see a lot of, "RJ would say this or that today". There is no possible way to really know that. I find the willingness to put words in a dead mans mouth a little disturbing

Edited December 5, 2021 by mogi68

[shiningwalls]

56 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I haver to say as much as I love the books, and I love the world RJ wrote, there are aspects of his writing and prose that I think need to be improved for a TV adaptation, heaving Bosoms, his description of female characters, the way almost all the men see women as interfering and refusing to accept help, and almost all women see men as wool headed and only making bad decisions. There are aspects of it that don't translate well to the current times, and it is ok to change these aspects RJ was ahead of his time in the 90's in how he presented women in a fantasy setting, if he was writing the books now I imagine he himself would change much of the way he presented certain characterisations and how he wrote them without fundamentally changing the story because some of what he wrote that was ahead of the time for the 90's is now considered behind the times in how it is written. RJ was ahead of the times so, his writing would change. 

 

What you’re saying is so bizarre and ironic, you’re quibbling about the portrayal of the sexes and gender relations in Robert Jordan’s books, which are works of fantasy set in a fictional universe far far removed from our real world. We “need” to update the sexual mores of a fantasy fiction universe to better reflect the real world of today rather than the 90s?? 

 

How about the next time someone does a screen adaptation of Shakespeare we call out all the instances of Elizabethan-era misogyny and replace it with more enlightened views of gender roles?

 

Fidelity to the source material means nothing?

 

In any case, of the criticisms of the WoT TV series I’ve read so far, no one is clamoring for “heaving bosoms” or women muttering angrily about “woolheaded men”. There’s a ton of other much more glaring omissions and changes that disturb many fans of the books.

[Scarloc99]

24 minutes ago, shiningwalls said:

 

You have a reductionist and simplistic view of what a story is. Just because you get a certain set of people at a certain place at a certain time doing certain things to “hit” every plot point doesn’t make it a compelling story. The details matter, especially details that show how the characters develop along their paths. You make it seem as though the overriding goal of the narrative is simply to get the characters in place to fight the Last Battle. But a work of fiction is not a video game; it’s not a race to the final boss battle, it’s the journey that makes the story. In fact, the WoT novels are a perfect demonstration of this because the ending is actually already revealed from the start. The reader is told and continually reminded, through countless prophecies, that the Dragon will defeat the Dark One (it must be so because of the cyclical nature of the fictional cosmology). What remains is therefore to find out HOW; to find out how, for example, a callow young shepherd from a backwater grows and changes and becomes the powerful leader and messianic figure that he needs to be. If every fantasy series were boiled down to the plot essentials, they would all tell basically the same story.

 

As I emphasized in my original post, I do not object to trimming the original source material to fit the constraints of the TV series running time. Merely trimming would still leave a rich trove of details, stories and characterization to work with. Countless scenes from the books could easily be lifted with minimal revision to convey the original vision of Robert Jordan. What is mindboggling is the sheer amount of screen time devoted to made-up shit that is totally absent from the books and totally new to the TV show.

 

There are so many examples from each episode that have no satisfactory explanation. For example, what is showing Moiraine and Lan sharing a hot bath supposed to accomplish? Does it reveal any significant aspect of their characters? Does it “hit” a “story beat” that explains how they’ll eventually defeat the Dark One? It doesn’t come from the books, and yet as a fabrication for TV doesn’t seem to advance plot or character either. It’s gratuitous and yet also tonally misplaced.

 

Compare that with the scenes in The Great Hunt which refer to the Shienaran practice of unisex public baths; there it is obviously

both a device for world building (it fleshes out the customs of the Shienaran people and creates opportunities for cross-cultural friction) and for characterization – it shows that the Two Rivers folk are conservative about nudity, cross-gender mingling, it emphasizes the youthful innocence and bashfulness of the characters.

Sorry with only 64 episodes to cover over 4 million words of story yes Rafe has to reduce it down simply to what needs to happen to get characters to the last battle, that is all that matters. If along the way he is able to explore a few more of the side threads, then that is great but as it is getting everyone where they need to be to make the last battle make sense is a monumental effort. Mat has to become the greatest General in the world and marry Tuon so the Seanchan are there, Saidin has to be Cleansed and the Black Tower created, Tear has to fall, the Aiel have to be united, Egwene has to become Amryln Seat, Nyn has to learn to channel so she can help wield Callandor, Min has to decipher the prophesies. Perrin has to learn to Dream walk so he can defend Rand from Slayer and on and on. 

 

So yes in 64 hours Rafe has to hit every one of those plot points one at a time, and do it in a way that does not feel like he is just paying lipservice to the story. I posted in another thread about word count per minute of WOT vs other adaptations and the fact is to match LOTR and GOT WOT would need approx 110-120 episodes. 

 

Moraine and Lan sharing a bath was a really important scene for non book readers, it tells them in episode 1, this series could get a little racey, have a bit of nudity, and some sex but, it is not GOT and we are not going to be showing naked breasts. This is important because from season 4 I am guessing onwards you are going to get all the intense stuff, like Mat being raped Bridgerton style, Morgase (if they include that story thread, which they may not because she isn't important to the last battle) being raped by 2 characters (compelled to have a relationship and then the white cloaks), the general sex and debauchery and Rand having an open poly relationship with 3 women. If you don't set that stall in episode 1 then you get 3 series of very vanilla TV and then all of a sudden Bridgerton light with magic. That is a massive thematic change that viewers will be confused by. As for the being embarrassed thing, I have said before in posts as a 16yo boy when I first read the EOTW in the late 90's I assumed Rand, Mat and Perrin where 14 because they acted like it, when I found out they where nearly 20 it actually threw me. For a non book reader, beig presented with 20 year olds who act so immature would be a stretch. 

 

Brandon Sanderson has talked about this, about needing to rewrite and scrap whole sections of the book because they don't work on the screen, or because scheduling means they can't be filmed, or because actually the point they are getting over can be better told a different way. By all means you can not agree with the decisions that are made but I have yet to see anyone who disagrees present an alternative that would actually work on the screen for someone who had no idea about this world before hitting play. 

[shiningwalls]

39 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Too bad the show has a budget and other constraints and therefore can't be a 20 episode 10 season behemoth 

 

This is simply not a cogent argument when it comes to decisions such as the personality a character portrays, the lines s/he speaks, and even basic aspects of the visual design. For example, to get the screen actor to portray Thom Merrilin as a gruff but avuncular old gleeman with long mustaches who plays the flute and has a patchwork cape (as opposed to a guitar strumming conman in drab brown), that’s a directorial decision that doesn’t affect the budget or the length of the series.

 

Building an expensive set of the Two Rivers that gets burned down in the first episode… That’s a showy waste of money that doesn’t significantly advance the story.

[Scarloc99]

15 minutes ago, shiningwalls said:

 

What you’re saying is so bizarre and ironic, you’re quibbling about the portrayal of the sexes and gender relations in Robert Jordan’s books, which are works of fantasy set in a fictional universe far far removed from our real world. We “need” to update the sexual mores of a fantasy fiction universe to better reflect the real world of today rather than the 90s?? 

 

How about the next time someone does a screen adaptation of Shakespeare we call out all the instances of Elizabethan-era misogyny and replace it with more enlightened views of gender roles?

 

Fidelity to the source material means nothing?

 

In any case, of the criticisms of the WoT TV series I’ve read so far, no one is clamoring for “heaving bosoms” or women muttering angrily about “woolheaded men”. There’s a ton of other much more glaring omissions and changes that disturb many fans of the books.

 I was reacting to someone who stated that the show had been made too female centric. And yes they are works of fiction set in a fantasy world, that need to appeal to people who have never read the books far more then they need ot appeal to those of us who love the books and this means adjusting some aspects to meet modern sentiments, it is why Peter Jackson gave Arwen more of a role in LOTR. 

 

But what exactly of the source material has been so horrifically re written for absolutely no value? 

 

Perrin married, killed his wife, I was not happy about the fact he killed his wife, Fridging is far too much of a trope, I had no problem with him being married and her dying. I had no issue with him killing someone, it explains and gets to, in one single scene what RJ takes entire chapters to get to, Perrin has a berserker side to himself and hates killing eventually hating Axes. 

 

Mat's family, again not a change I expected and not one that I was pleased with, but, it does explain Mats character in relation to the TV show, it explains why he cares so much for his sisters and it explains his fear at what he is becoming. Convinced as he is that Rand is lying about him killing that family. I am hoping that we will see a redemption arc for his father at some point. or we learn that the actions of his parents have only started in the past year or so. This is probably the only change I am unhappy with and don't understand. 

 

The fact people think the Dragon can be a women, we know it won't be, and we don't actually know that in the world it can actually be a women, all we know is that Morraine thinks it can be. I have repeatedly said someone not knowing something does not equal that is how it is in the lore. I am pretty sure (might be wrong) that Rand cut Loial off when he was about to explain Egwene could not be Jain Farstrider because she is a women. I might be wrong about that. And Aes Sedai not understanding that is not a stretch, they are not exactly infallible in the books, and I can fully believe the Black Ajah would put that bit of misdirection out there simply to muddy the waters when it comes to finding the Dragon Reborn. 

 

Are there things that are absent, yes, but what is missing that impacts the ultimate telling of the story? Would you have liked more time of Rand and Mat travelling and performing with Thom, would you have liked to see the group at barleon, another inn, another fight, another escape? Would you have spent 8 hours getting the party to Tar Valon and then had season 2 take up from there? 

 

The fact is that Rafe has a limited time to tell a story, by all means dislike the decisions he has made but I have yet to see anyone who doesn't like the series present a clear synopsis of what they would have done instead, which scenes they would have replaced, or removed, where they would have spent the time. Actually I think that is a valid new thread for discussion. 

[Ralph]

45 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

I see a lot of, "RJ would say this or that today". There is no possible way to really know that. I find the willingness to put words in a dead mans mouth a little disturbing

This cuts both ways

[qlorin]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:01 AM, ArrylT said:

Why do you think DC & Marvel movies keep getting made?

 

On 12/4/2021 at 4:01 AM, ArrylT said:

Same with Star Wars / Star Trek.   Doctor Who

Not the same thing. They have tons of stories. WoT is one story only when its bad its over. Think like the marvel universe didint have any stories after thor 2. Starwars and Startrek are not completed sagas they can improve on them. Doctor who litterealy written for unending story. We have one story be aware of that...

 

On 12/4/2021 at 4:01 AM, ArrylT said:

Don't be like this darkfriend

At least he is better darkfriend than one in the show. I am not fired up like him but lets be honest he has some points. They are changing and destroying some parts of the books unnecessaraly.

 

 

On 12/4/2021 at 4:01 AM, ArrylT said:

And lots of these fans will then turn to the books. 

Wishfull thinking in this age. IF and this is a big IF show is as succesfull as GoT yes there will be some people turn to the books. But even than not much because its 15 books mate and they are big books. 

 

 

On 12/4/2021 at 4:01 AM, ArrylT said:

Those kinds of people have a lot more in common with either White Cloaks or Forsaken than they realize

Whitecloaks in the books or whitecloaks in the show? One is realistic, thought driven with an ideology. There are definetly many people in the world like that. The other one is very cartoonish. I never seen any people like that not in real world.

Can I be a Forsaken?... I heard there are 8 now... Somebody needs to fill the blanks :D...

My thoughts... People in the community must raise their voice not for cancelation but improvement of the show... Producers must be awere of the flows... Saying "ohhh how wondeful WoT show"  is not helpfull... Also "I want adaptation even it is trash" attitude is as toxic as people you complain...

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by qlorin

[kent1963]

Is there any reason they couldn't have followed the story line? Changes that make little to no sense basic changes to the storyline changes to properties of the world in general? I'm not saying it's bad it's just NOT the same story.... it's like watching a movie that's Loosely based on a real event...

[ArrylT]

3 hours ago, qlorin said:

 

Not the same thing. They have tons of stories. WoT is one story only when its bad its over. Think like the marvel universe didint have any stories after thor 2. Starwars and Startrek are not completed sagas they can improve on them. Doctor who litterealy written for unending story. We have one story be aware of that...

 

The point there is that there was enough demand and the demand kept growing so more shows and the franchise grew as a result.  Those shows adapted & created new material in their respective franchises.  But they all grew from a single tree.  

 

WOT was 1 book, then it was supposed to be 6, then 10 and it grew into 14 books, a prequel, extra prologues, audiobooks, conventions.  Now a tv series.   But if no one had bought EOTW then it would never have grown.   

 

This TV series, whether some of the book fans enjoy it or not, is growing the franchise, and that in turn will allow for a larger market & more adaptations in the future.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, qlorin said:

At least he is better darkfriend than one in the show. I am not fired up like him but lets be honest he has some points. They are changing and destroying some parts of the books unnecessaraly.
 

 

Difference of opinions I suppose.   I saw no legit or honest constructive critique - further he wasnt writing a review - he was sending a strongly worded message to someone who liked the show and posted  it on their thread.

 

 

3 hours ago, qlorin said:

 

Wishfull thinking in this age. IF and this is a big IF show is as succesfull as GoT yes there will be some people turn to the books. But even than not much because its 15 books mate and they are big books. 

 

Season 1 of Wheel of Time is likely already as successful as S1 GOT.  GOT didnt become a massive hit until Season 4.   Season 1 had an average of 2.5 million viewers on HBO.   

 

WOT actually has had more demand than The Witcher did before its release.

 

https://observer.com/2021/11/amazon-wheel-of-time-ratings-prime-video-vs-netflix-disney-apple-hbo/

 

1.13x higher than demand for Netflix’s The Witcher (which is the foundation for a burgeoning Netflix franchise)

2.16x higher than demand for Netflix’s Shadow and Bone (which was renewed for a second season)

5.56x higher than demand for Apple TV+’s See (which is currently filming a third season)

7.76x higher than demand for HBO’s His Dark Materials (which has been renewed for a third and final season)

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/wheel-of-time-shows-why-amazon-betting-on-fantasy-content-2021-12

 

It was last week's most "in-demand" TV series in the world across all platforms, according to the data company Parrot Analytics, topping HBO's own fantasy hit, "Game of Thrones." The company measures audience demand, which reflects the engagement with or desire for, or overall popularity, of a series.

 

The GOT show had a major impact on book sales & where the books were sold

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_Thrones

 

"The TV series has contributed significantly boosting sales of both the books and collectibles like box-sets, merchandise, and other items. The TV series also contributed in increasing the geographic coverage of the books, introducing new customers in emerging countries like India and Brazil to the book series. All this has significantly increased the overall book sales. As of April 2019, the book series has sold 90 million copies worldwide.^[5]"

 

Speaking of Brazil at least one DM member from Brazil mentioned that the books did not find a strong market there and have stopped being translated after Book 6.   However the show itself has premiered extremely well in Brazil (according to DM article) so hopefully this demand will jumpstart more book sales in Brazil.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, qlorin said:

My thoughts... People in the community must raise their voice not for cancelation but improvement of the show... Producers must be awere of the flows... Saying "ohhh how wondeful WoT show"  is not helpfull... Also "I want adaptation even it is trash" attitude is as toxic as people you complain...

 

 

I one hundred percent agree.     There are definitely ways the show can improve - although I think a lot of people agree that Rafe & the show producers are somewhat hamstrung by the 8 episode 60m limit.   Whether the show should be 10/12/more episodes per season - well that will have to wait til S3.   

 

If you refer back to my earlier post I am only talking about people are being negative just for the sake of being negative & sending hate to the show & its fans.   That post I shared being an example.   I am not talking about anyone looking for things to improve about the show or explains why they do not enjoy the show.   If someone dislikes the show because they feel it deviates too much from the source material then that is their valid and honest opinion.    

 

In the end a lot of this is going to be subjective opinion - one persons treasure is another persons trash.  I personally enjoy the show, but that does not stop me from being aware it can get better.  There has been pacing/editing/vfx decisions I am not really a fan of.   I just choose not to let what I dislike or feel needs improvement from interfering with my enjoyment of the show.  

 

That is one of the things I like about DM.   There are threads specifically for criticisms, for things we want in the show, threads where we share things we love about the show.     This does not need to be a Yes/No Black/White binary.   Its a I like the show but this bothers me, I love the show but something is missing, I would like the show but changes need to be made before I can ... 

 

Anyways thanks for taking the time to read & respond and apologies for my long ramble.

Edited December 6, 2021 by ArrylT

[TheDreadReader]

36 minutes ago, kent1963 said:

Is there any reason they couldn't have followed the story line? Changes that make little to no sense basic changes to the storyline changes to properties of the world in general? I'm not saying it's bad it's just NOT the same story.... it's like watching a movie that's Loosely based on a real event...

 

Some of this depends on how you define the story and the plot.   I tend to use a fairly technical definition (stolen from the novelist E.M. Forster) that 'the story are the events that happen in time' with plot becoming the logical reasons that events unfold.   With that in mind the show and TEOTW share the same story so far with some added bits and bobs. 

 

Moiraine comes to the two rivers.  Trollocs attack.  The party leaves the two rivers.  The party hits Shadar Logoth. The party becomes separated and travels until they reunite and continue on.

 

The challenge in the adaptation is that they have to decide which parts to keep in and which parts to leave out.  They have to refine the story for the purposes of television.   Along the way, they have to decide which places that occur within those big story beats to include, which ones to exclude, which ones to change, etc.   And, we can be critical of the choices they make there. 

 

For example, I would have liked them to keep Baerlon in.   I'd be fine with them skipping the Tairen Ferry bits to do it.

 

So, out of all the smaller story bits (like say Baerlon) , which ones would have to be included to make it the same story to you?   How many of those bits would it require to make it feel like more of the same story to you?   Also, what bits would you be willing to take away while keeping it the same?

 

 

 

[Theseus78]

And sometimes the reality of making a TV show creates some changes.  They didn't have the budget to make the sets for both Tar Valon and Caemlyn.  So, they made the decision for the party to meet back up at TV.

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, Theseus78 said:

And sometimes the reality of making a TV show creates some changes.  They didn't have the budget to make the sets for both Tar Valon and Caemlyn.  So, they made the decision for the party to meet back up at TV.

Did I have a brain cloud?  Siuan, Liandrin, Tar Valon Weren't in EoTW.  It didn't have to be a choice.  Use the wheelbarrows full of cash from the first season going to well to build the set for Tar Valon and Cairhein later.

[qlorin]

4 hours ago, ArrylT said:

Season 1 of Wheel of Time is likely already as successful as S1 GOT.  GOT didnt become a massive hit until Season 4.   Season 1 had an average of 2.5 million viewers on HBO. 

Strong disagree here... Reason is "this is a new age". I am not from US (you can see from my language). When GoT started It was in a channel i didnt  even heard of. I watched it some pirate sites like most of the world. GoT became a tremendous hit at the end of first season globally but our numbers never shown at that statistics. It was gooooood. It was loyal to the books. Then they started to change stuff. They cut off RJJ Martin from the show. And we all saw what happaned ?

Comparing offical GoT numbers to WoT numbers are faulty. It is like comparing album sales of Led Zeppelin at 70's to youtube wievings some casual guy from today.  Casual guy wins the numbers not because of quality or impact but only differance of delivery system.

One of the best ways to compare actual demand will be Google trends. If you analyze those ,state of WoT is very grim.

4 hours ago, ArrylT said:

The GOT show had a major impact on book sales & where the books were sold

Again not same kind of beast here. GoT had 4 books when show started not 15. Defietly it will increase the numbers but not on the same level with GoT... 

And lets be honest here if earlier seasons of GoT was like its later seasons those numbers would never go up like that...

 

 

4 hours ago, ArrylT said:

Speaking of Brazil at least one DM member from Brazil mentioned that the books did not find a strong market there and have stopped being translated after Book 6.

This point i give you. I am from Turkey. All the books are translated here but extremly hard to find especially book 6 and book 7. I have complete set because I bought the books as they written/translated but some books could not be found one or two years after its release. 2 years ago somebody offered my 6th book 10 times what it listed. I hope this show will end constant "can i borrow this" from my friends ? 


I agree with you on most points. The real issue is this is not a pattion project for producers.

Peter Jackson was succesful on LotR beacuse he loved it. He analayzed that book to the core. He changed much but never betray the soul of the books. He tried and tried. He created whole new thecnologies for the films. There are some scenes from extended version still filming after third movie already won 11 oscars. 

GoT strarted as a pattion project it was good at frist but it become a money printer. Producers D&D couldnt maintain their pattion and it fall apart.

WoT started very badly. I am not saying it is unwatchable. But soul of the books are not there. We are disapoointed ,we are fearing about the book and its legacy. Some people cant handle that and become angry. This book series is just a good book series for some fans. But for some people including me it is a life changer. 

Anyway the real question is this. Can I be a Forsaken? pls pls pls ? 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by qlorin

[ArrylT]

18 minutes ago, qlorin said:

 I am not from US (you can see from my language).

 

Neither am I.  But no I did not assume you were or were not American and felt your english was not flawed even if I cared to go there (and judge someones English comprehension).   Either way I am glad that WOT has fans all over the world.   Turkey, imho, is a vibrant country with a storied past, so I am not surprised that something like WOT would attract fans. 

 

18 minutes ago, qlorin said:

 

When GoT started It was in a channel i didnt  even heard of. I watched it some pirate sites like most of the world. GoT became a tremendous hit at the end of first season globally but our numbers never shown at that statistics. It was gooooood. It was loyal to the books. Then they started to change stuff. They cut off RJJ Martin from the show. And we all saw what happaned ?

 

 

I did not pay much attention to GOT production because after my first aborted attempt to watch way back in S1, I did not watch the show until 2020 during the pandemic.   So I was not aware that Martin got uninvolved with GOT.

 

What I do recall, from my own experiences, is that few people where I lived were watching it, I stopped after Ep3, and for a couple of years it was rarely talked about in the circles I was in.   Then suddenly it was like an explosion of interest.  I still wasnt watching it, but based off of the event that was the water cooler topic (Blood Wedding) I know that was end of S3 - and the HBO audience metrics seem to support that.

 

18 minutes ago, qlorin said:

 

Comparing offical GoT numbers to WoT numbers are faulty. It is like comparing album sales of Led Zeppelin at 70's to youtube wievings some casual guy from today.  Casual guy wins the numbers not because of quality or impact but only differance of delivery system.

One of the best ways to compare actual demand will be Google trends. If you analyze those ,state of WoT is very grim.

 

I guess we'll have to disagree because I am not sure exactly what the analogy is here.   I do though feel that for me at least, the amount of people interested in S1 WOT is equal to or greater than the amount of people who were interested in S1 GOT at that time based on HBO audience share.  But that is often the case with how we interpret data & statistics.  

 

I will agree it is hard to properly capture statistics because streaming was a lot less of a thing back in 2011, but every market that I've read about - Oceania/UK/NA/SA all seem to give off indicators that WOT is doing very well.

 

18 minutes ago, qlorin said:

This point i give you. I am from Turkey. All the books are translated here but extremly hard to find especially book 6 and book 7. I have complete set because I bought the books as they written/translated but some books could not be found one or two years after its release. 2 years ago somebody offered my 6th book 10 times what it listed. I hope this show will end constant "can i borrow this" from my friends ? 


I agree with you on most points. The real issue is this is not a pattion project for producers.

Peter Jackson was succesful on LotR beacuse he loved it. He analayzed that book to the core. He changed much but never betray the soul of the books. He tried and tried. He created whole new thecnologies for the films. There are some scenes from extended version still filming after third movie already won 11 oscars. 

GoT strarted as a pattion project it was good at frist but it become a money printer. Producers D&D couldnt maintain their pattion and it fall apart.

WoT started very badly. I am not saying it is unwatchable. But soul of the books are not there. We are disapoointed ,we are fearing about the book and its legacy. Some people cant handle that and become angry. This book series is just a good book series for some fans. But for some people including me it is a life changer. 

 

 

That is not my interpretation of the showrunners.   I can only say that I recommend that you do a dive into Rafe Judkins, Sarah Nakamura, Brandon Sanderson & many of the other producers.   They have all come across as true fans of WOT to me.   But I respect that not everyone feels that way and I am well aware that some do not believe Rafe is a true friend to the books.   That is their (and your) opinion and it simply differs from mine. 

 

And yes, I hope so to, and think it will do its part to drive book sales.   Because of the size of the Series, it will likely look like less of an impact - but I figure at least the first 2-3 books will start selling like hot cakes again (seems to be the case so far with EOTW) and that will drive further sales as at least a portion of the new readers stay hooked.

 

18 minutes ago, qlorin said:

Anyway the real question is this. Can I be a Forsaken? pls pls pls ? 
 

 

If I had any sway with the show then yes I'd give you your choice of the Forsaken, after Nae'blis and Ishamael.    Once again I appreciate you taking time to share your thoughts.   

[fra85uk]

Discussing with my RL friends, we were trying to find an another abomin...ehm pardon "adaptation" in which the main character is so incredibly put aside.

We did not find any but maybe we are missing something.