How did the show hold up for you?

[Vambram]

@Spiritweaver1  Like you, I also would like to see Bayle Domon, Elaida, and Morgase. I'm sure that all of us here on Dragonmount have a wide variety of tertiary, or even secondary, characters from the books that won't make the cut to be included into this onscreen adaptation. The book series is simply too long, and too massive. Minor characters are going to have to be either dropped completely or blended together with other minor characters. I believe that we could see Liandrin and Elaida blended together into one character. I believe that Queen Morgase will appear in season 2 or 3, but I doubt that she will survive Rahvin's takeover of her kingdom after she realizes that she has been under compulsion. 

One of my favorite minor characters is Bayle Domon. I sincerely hope that Rafe has plans for my favorite smuggler that includes him being on screen in the following seasons for at least an episode or two. 

[Kudzu]

3 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Where is Bayle Domon, Elaida and Morgase not to mention other characters that wander through the books with significant roles.  Its not that that they can't get to those plot lines it is just that they have to make up new plot lines to connect to book ones ones or else the Amazon wheel is weaving a completely new pattern.

 

I think some of my carping is being misinterpreted.  I am trying very hard to judge this show on its own merits as a standalone fantasy creation.  That's why I am currently at like.  I don't like the show as an adaptation.  In my opinion it is a "based on" judging from E4&E5.  However Amazon is still weaving the pattern of the show and it is far too early to make any final judgements.  Rafe and his thread spinners are no doubt doing the best they can with what they have.

 

Everybody here can be a critic and it is fun do that.  However, none of us are actually charged with the duty to create a great WOT show that will take the world by storm.   IMHO this story even if it continues down it's current path will still be far better than GOT.  I couldn't even make it through season one of GOT my sister and i were watching it.  We decided to stop.  We called it Dark Ages West Wing.

 

 For me, forged as I was, in the fires of Mount Doom.  Is that the thing that binds all great fantasy together is some version of the hero's journey.  It should contain the elements of growing into full potential and reaching beyond perceived limitations to do so.  It should contain a noble purpose and it should contain metaphysics not of this world.  How about The Odyssey?  At any rate WOT has multiple hero's and follows their becoming, struggles and deeds.  It matters not to RJ whether you are man, woman, or wolf.  You can be a hero and stand against the forces of lies, lust for the flesh and power and love of causing pain and suffering.  We are gonna stuff all that sh*! back in it's prison.  That is our duty as human beings and we all need to learn how to do it.    Nuf said.

 

Yeah I get that. Most people seem to be more concerned with what is missing rather than what's changed. It's difficult knowing the story, knowing what they've cut and then trying work out how or if they're going to work it back in. Especially if it's one of your favourite characters or sub plots.

 

I think we need to prepare ourselves for what's coming. I believe what we've seen is just the tip of the ice berg in terms of cuts, changes and consolidations they're going to need to make to fit this thing into 8 seasons and have a cohesive story. 

[AdamA]

Morgase and Elaida are going to be in season two. They just moved the introduction of Caemlyn for whatever reason, probably logistical that we can't really understand without being part of the production (though it's entirely likely they'll explain at some point if you watch all the behind the scenes extras, where they explain a lot of stuff people ask about here).

 

Bayle Domon I'm guessing they just wait until the girls go to Tanchico. For one, he plays a bigger role there. Two, it's difficult for the sake of continuity to ensure you can get the same actor when they're going to have to take a multi-season break, especially if you can only give them one episode in the first season you cast them for. So writers have an incentive to consolidate where characters are needed into bigger chunks of episodes in the same season. It's one of the reasons events get reordered.

[Kudzu]

3 hours ago, GanoesParan said:

Like you, I also would like to see Bayle Domon, Elaida, and Morgase. I'm sure that all of us here on Dragonmount have a wide variety of tertiary, or even secondary, characters from the books that won't make the cut to be included into this onscreen adaptation. The book series is simply too long, and too massive. Minor characters are going to have to be either dropped completely or blended together with other minor characters. I believe that we could see Liandrin and Elaida blended together into one character. I believe that Queen Morgase will appear in season 2 or 3, but I doubt that she will survive Rahvin's takeover of her kingdom after she realizes that she has been under compulsion. 

One of my favorite minor characters is Bayle Domon. I sincerely hope that Rafe has plans for my favorite smuggler that includes him being on screen in the following seasons for at least an episode or two. 

 

Yep, of those three Bayle is definitely my favourite, but also probably the least important for the story. Other than loosely tying a few of the major arcs together he really does nothing other then adding a bit a flavour.

[Ajimbura]

I don't think people compare WOT to GOT based on the stories they portray or the content.

But the treatment the content receives.

The same with comparing with LOTR.

I think both LOTR and GOT (as long as content was available) received a very good compromise between what you can do and what the books tells.

Different medium and all that.

 

With WOT I don't understand a single choice they have made to tell the story.

Not the changes in the characters and their backstory, the changes in how e.g. Lan and Morraine operate and so forth. I don't understand who came up with the brilliant idea to push "the message" into a series set in a medieval-ish time. To add to injury it's poorly done and isn't even needed.

 

Have seen posts like, but this is the interpretation that XYZ did.

To which I would say that the interpretation is crap.

Just like someone would interpret a Beethoven symphony and replacing the strings with kazoos, it might sound like a Beethoven symphony somewhere but it would still sound like shite.

 

Did I expect perfection, of course not, I did however expect the writers to be at least competent.

 

Yes someone will say that they would like to hear a symphony with kazoos, I doubt most would except for the meme.

 

[Kudzu]

1 hour ago, Ajimbura said:

I don't think people compare WOT to GOT based on the stories they portray or the content.

But the treatment the content receives.

The same with comparing with LOTR.

I think both LOTR and GOT (as long as content was available) received a very good compromise between what you can do and what the books tells.

Different medium and all that.

 

With WOT I don't understand a single choice they have made to tell the story.

Not the changes in the characters and their backstory, the changes in how e.g. Lan and Morraine operate and so forth. I don't understand who came up with the brilliant idea to push "the message" into a series set in a medieval-ish time. To add to injury it's poorly done and isn't even needed.

 

Have seen posts like, but this is the interpretation that XYZ did.

To which I would say that the interpretation is crap.

Just like someone would interpret a Beethoven symphony and replacing the strings with kazoos, it might sound like a Beethoven symphony somewhere but it would still sound like shite.

 

Did I expect perfection, of course not, I did however expect the writers to be at least competent.

 

Yes someone will say that they would like to hear a symphony with kazoos, I doubt most would except for the meme.

 

 

I'm sure it's a bad idea to ask this, but what is "the message"?

[Yojimbo]

2 hours ago, Ajimbura said:

 

 

Yes someone will say that they would like to hear a symphony with kazoos, I doubt most would except for the meme.

 

Google PDQ Bach

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._D._Q._Bach

 

P. D. Q. Bach often incorporate comical rearrangements of well-known works of other composers. The works use instruments not normally used in orchestras, such as the bagpipes, slide whistle, kazoo, and fictional or experimental instruments such as the pastaphone (made of uncooked manicotti),^[9]tromboon,^[10] hardart, lasso d'amore,^[11] and left-handed sewer flute.

 

 

First ran into his work when I was 14 in musical appreciation class.   Teacher played sone of his stuff for April fools.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Yojimbo

[DojoToad]

 

Episode 6 premieres tonight - so another snapshot in time:

 

Positive - 45%

Negative - 42%

 

The gap is narrowing with negative votes gaining faster than positive again.  So why the continued slide?

 

Were I buying something on Amazon - be it a book, sweater, or microwave - I wouldn't even consider an item with this low of a positive feedback rate.  In general, I don't look long at items that aren't at least 90% 4 or 5 stars.

 

Now I know that on media websites such as Rotten Tomatoes or IMDB the show is doing better - much better.  So likely RJ2 and the writers will continue down the path they are on - play to the non-book readers because they are a bigger group and are liking/loving the show - so $$$.  And that makes sense to me.  Do what makes you successful or get cancelled.

 

I, however, cannot appreciate the show for what it is.  I skipped episode 5 and will also skip episode 6.  I'll follow the chat here to see what folks think of tonight's episode.  If after a couple days of feedback my impression is that the show will continue along the same vein - then I will bow out of these forums as well.  I'll miss the interactions.  I will just have to wait for whatever the next offering is.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

34 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

 

Episode 6 premieres tonight - so another snapshot in time:

 

Positive - 45%

Negative - 42%

 

The gap is narrowing with negative votes gaining faster than positive again.  So why the continued slide?

 

Were I buying something on Amazon - be it a book, sweater, or microwave - I wouldn't even consider an item with this low of a positive feedback rate.  In general, I don't look long at items that aren't at least 90% 4 or 5 stars.

 

Now I know that on media websites such as Rotten Tomatoes or IMDB the show is doing better - much better.  So likely RJ2 and the writers will continue down the path they are on - play to the non-book readers because they are a bigger group and are liking/loving the show - so $$$.  And that makes sense to me.  Do what makes you successful or get cancelled.

 

I, however, cannot appreciate the show for what it is.  I skipped episode 5 and will also skip episode 6.  I'll follow the chat here to see what folks think of tonight's episode.  If after a couple days of feedback my impression is that the show will continue along the same vein - then I will bow out of these forums as well.  I'll miss the interactions.  I will just have to wait for whatever the next offering is.

 

 

I appreciate your intent, but you understand this poll of yours is entirely meaningless, right? It's not representative of any real thing, other than the opinions of users who comment on message boards at Dragonmount.com, some of whom may or may not be bots or sock puppets.

 

By all the metrics Amazon cares about, this show is killing it.

[ArrylT]

35 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

 

Episode 6 premieres tonight - so another snapshot in time:

 

Positive - 45%

Negative - 42%

 

The gap is narrowing with negative votes gaining faster than positive again.  So why the continued slide?

 

Were I buying something on Amazon - be it a book, sweater, or microwave - I wouldn't even consider an item with this low of a positive feedback rate.  In general, I don't look long at items that aren't at least 90% 4 or 5 stars.

 

Now I know that on media websites such as Rotten Tomatoes or IMDB the show is doing better - much better.  So likely RJ2 and the writers will continue down the path they are on - play to the non-book readers because they are a bigger group and are liking/loving the show - so $$$.  And that makes sense to me.  Do what makes you successful or get cancelled.

 

I, however, cannot appreciate the show for what it is.  I skipped episode 5 and will also skip episode 6.  I'll follow the chat here to see what folks think of tonight's episode.  If after a couple days of feedback my impression is that the show will continue along the same vein - then I will bow out of these forums as well.  I'll miss the interactions.  I will just have to wait for whatever the next offering is.

 

 

 

I wish you the best and hope you'll do what is best for you.   However I do think that the forums have plenty to offer besides just the tv show side, so hopefully you'll stick around to enjoy them even if you do decide not to keep following the TV Show.   I doubt this will change your mind if Brandon Sanderson saying #6 is the best of the 6 he's seen but I just saw this on Twitter:

 

 

And Elder Haman is correct in the sample size is currently less than 3% of their YT followers, and less than 1% of their Twitter followers (no idea on their FB or Instagram support).   Obviously it is relative in that the most active DM forum users that decided to vote are split.    

 

Cheers!

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I appreciate your intent, but you understand this poll of yours is entirely meaningless, right? It's not representative of any real thing, other than the opinions of users who comment on message boards at Dragonmount.com, some of whom may or may not be bots or sock puppets.

 

By all the metrics Amazon cares about, this show is killing it.

Why would this poll be any more meaningless that IMDB/Rotten Tomatoes/Etc.?  In fact, Dragonmount being much smaller (miniscule in comparison) is much less likely to be spammed by bots/sock puppets.

 

I made the point that the show is killing it, and so is unlikely to change.  Just wondering what other folks thoughts were.

 

Didn't mean to pee in your Cheerios.

 

The good news is, that episode 6 is likely to be just as bad for me as the previous ones have been.  So I'll be off the boards in a few days.  Don't have to worry about me getting you all torqued out of shape.

[DojoToad]

9 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

I wish you the best and hope you'll do what is best for you.   However I do think that the forums have plenty to offer besides just the tv show side, so hopefully you'll stick around to enjoy them even if you do decide not to keep following the TV Show.   I doubt this will change your mind if Brandon Sanderson saying #6 is the best of the 6 he's seen but I just saw this on Twitter:

 

 

And Elder Haman is correct in the sample size is currently less than 3% of their YT followers, and less than 1% of their Twitter followers (no idea on their FB or Instagram support).   Obviously it is relative in that the most active DM forum users that decided to vote are split.    

 

Cheers!

Thanks.  Appreciate the constructive feedback.

[Gothic Flame]

Without opposing perspectives the overall talk just becomes an echo chamber.

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Why would this poll be any more meaningless that IMDB/Rotten Tomatoes/Etc.?

First, just to clarify, I'm not mad or "torqued off".  I'm just talking about basic statistics. You can't generalize something: "book fans are evenly split on the show" based on a poll that is not based on a properly representative and controlled sample.

 

IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes have methodology problems too, but those are at least somewhat obviated by the sheer numbers. What I'm saying is this:

 

There are people who are "fans" of the Wheel of Time Books.

A small subset of those people traffic Dragonmount.com

An even smaller subset of the people who traffic the site leave comments.

So you are starting out with a very skewed group of people: those who are passionate enough about the Wheel of Time books to spend time, effort and energy making comments.

 

And since there are no controls on the poll, you undermine confidence in the actual results to a degree. Who's to say, for example, that I didn't create 10 sock puppet accounts to vote a particular way because I was feeling salty? [I did not do that] 

[fra85uk]

Well maybe not statistically relevant but probably Gives an idea of what "hardcore" fans think of the show.

I would say that among book readers in the web and social network the opinions are quite split on the show, which makes sense since there have been so many changes...

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Well maybe not statistically relevant but probably Gives an idea of what "hardcore" fans think of the show.

That's a little closer to the mark. But I also think that a heavy split between "hardcore" fans is to be expected because you're pulling people whose passion for the subject matter tends to make them outliers. 

[fra85uk]

Yes indeed but i think that on a website dedicated to WoT universe it's ok to Have this kind of sampling, with ofc no direct projection to a larger base.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

It is what it is. That's all I'm saying.

[DojoToad]

11 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

That's a little closer to the mark. But I also think that a heavy split between "hardcore" fans is to be expected because you're pulling people whose passion for the subject matter tends to make them outliers. 

Outliers in both directions.

[Daenelia]

I'd not want to force someone to watch a show or to 'make them like it'. If my guy would have said after 2 or 3 episodes 'nah, not for me', that would have been fine. I also anticipated I might not like it and I can only say that it made me realise how much I love the book series ... while also loving the thing they've done so far with the tv series.

 

But I do agree: @Gothic Flame an echo chamber is not what I am looking for. Healthy and friendly discussion is. Trying to understand different viewpoints and opinions. But that also means I can get to disagree or agree when I do. Without judging or being judged ?

 

Really would hate to see people bow out because ... why? But I do understand that if the discussions here don't add something to your own enjoyment, there would be little reason to stay around.

 

... other than that you'd abandon us to an echo chamber ...? ? @DojoToad You're viewpoint is appreciated!

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, Daenelia said:

I'd not want to force someone to watch a show or to 'make them like it'. If my guy would have said after 2 or 3 episodes 'nah, not for me', that would have been fine. I also anticipated I might not like it and I can only say that it made me realise how much I love the book series ... while also loving the thing they've done so far with the tv series.

 

But I do agree: @Gothic Flame an echo chamber is not what I am looking for. Healthy and friendly discussion is. Trying to understand different viewpoints and opinions. But that also means I can get to disagree or agree when I do. Without judging or being judged ?

 

Really would hate to see people bow out because ... why? But I do understand that if the discussions here don't add something to your own enjoyment, there would be little reason to stay around.

 

... other than that you'd abandon us to an echo chamber ...? ? @DojoToad You're viewpoint is appreciated!

I appreciate it @Daenelia.

 

I gave it a good go (first 4 episodes twice each).  If episode 6 is great as Sanderson intimated, then I might be back in.  But if all I pick up from the chat is more of the same then the show isn't for me - and the forums would not be either.  Not because I don't enjoy it here - I do.  But my opinions will become increasingly irrelevant due to not being up to date on the show.  Dragonmount doesn't need that.  I'd just be blowing smoke and that doesn't help anyone.

 

In or out, I'm sure I'll know by the end of the weekend.

[Reader]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Why would this poll be any more meaningless that IMDB/Rotten Tomatoes/Etc.?  In fact, Dragonmount being much smaller (miniscule in comparison) is much less likely to be spammed by bots/sock puppets.

 

I made the point that the show is killing it, and so is unlikely to change.  Just wondering what other folks thoughts were.

 

Didn't mean to pee in your Cheerios.

 

The good news is, that episode 6 is likely to be just as bad for me as the previous ones have been.  So I'll be off the boards in a few days.  Don't have to worry about me getting you all torqued out of shape.

I don't mind reading the views of people who don't like the show, and see no need for you to leave or stop commenting.  For me the show is still in the "like it" option, at around 7.5/10 overall, but I'm not sure if I'm influenced by watching it from midnight UK time, when I know I have to be up for work at 7am.  I might save tonight's episode for the weekend.

[DojoToad]

46 minutes ago, Reader said:

I don't mind reading the views of people who don't like the show, and see no need for you to leave or stop commenting.  For me the show is still in the "like it" option, at around 7.5/10 overall, but I'm not sure if I'm influenced by watching it from midnight UK time, when I know I have to be up for work at 7am.  I might save tonight's episode for the weekend.

I wouldn't leave due to my opinions, but would for two other reasons:

• I've stopped watching the show so my opinions would become increasingly irrelevant
• I've decided that I can't enjoy the show so why waste time dwelling on it - either by watching it "because it is all we have" or by discussing it because I like to rant

I'll read about what you all think of episode 6 and go from there...

[Spiritweaver1]

As I have mentioned before, for me the trick is separating what I wanted in my head from what the reality is.  The reality seems to be a heavily  rewritten show  which is only following the plot in the largest sense.  Yet it still is a good story and can be successfully judged on it's own merits if we can divorce it from the movie most of us created in our heads when reading the books.   Take the Dickens classic A Christmas Carol.  If you measure Scrooged  as an adaptation of the original there might  be problems.  If you look at it as a "based on" story you can truly appreciate it (or not).   Perhaps some of us are just fighting too much instead of relaxing and letting the show fill us.    I so hope the folks trying to create the show get an opportunity to finish it in line with their vision and talents.  

 

The question is does Amazon care about telling a great story or is it really only about optimizing the viewership with the lowest possible cost.  The answer to this will determine how this show  is remembered by everybody and not just the book fans as we get into the follow on seasons. Where perhaps they could invest a bit more in certain show aspects that have been thoroughly covered elsewhere.

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Episode 6 premieres tonight - so another snapshot in time:

 

Positive - 45%

Negative - 42%

 

The gap is narrowing with negative votes gaining faster than positive again.  So why the continued slide?

Here's my hypothesis.
People who hate or dislike something are often the most vocal and will purposely register at sites like Reddit/Twitter/Facebook, Fan Forums, just so they can scream into the wind about how much they hate said product.

Thus, you're seeing the numbers slide because people are more likely to register to hate on something, then to register about how much they love it. It's also impossible to say how many on either side are creating new accounts just to mess with "polls".

Now for some stats from those that voted.
 

Culminative Posts

Positive	Negative
76715	39361

 

Average Join Date

Positive	Negative
9/25/2017	12/11/2017

 

Median Post Count

Positive	Negative
61	7

 

Median Join Date

Positive	Negative
9/9/2021	11/15/2021

Other interesting Data.

Users that joined in 2021.
Positive: 40
Negative: 39

 

Everyone that joined before 2021,

Positive: 28
Negative: 26

Culminative Post Count of those that registered in 2021
Positive: 2460
Negative: 768

Culminate Post Count of those that registered prior to 2021

Positive: 72824

Negative: 38593

If you were to argue that post count = Vocal, then clearly Positive is more Vocal than Negative. 

However, I'd argue that "vocal" and "active" are two different metrics.

 

People who vote "positive" are more likely to be active members on DM, where as those who vote "negatively" are most likely to register, post, and leave.

Contrary to what some may believe, their were people who voted positively that were banned, and those that voted Negatively had less then 5 banned members in their list. Several of which were spam bots.