How did the show hold up for you?

[TheMountain]

13 minutes ago, Carebear Sedai said:

 

What exactly didn't your wife understand?

Basically: "why are they doing all this stuff?"

 

Yes, the writers wanted to show ritual mourning. 100% understood. But... why?

She wanted to know more about the scene. Why did certain people participate in the ritual mourning, why was Lan the one to do it, why was there throat singing, was it a "warder thing," etc? 

 

It is a complete invention of the show, so anything I say would just be speculation. 

[ManetherenTaveren]

15 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Lord of the Seven Towers, Lord of the Lakes, uncrowned King of Malkier, Dai'shan, Diademed Battle Lord of Malkier, Aan'allein.

At age sixteen he was given the hadori and became a man. He began his one man war against the Shadow that he could not win, with the oath graven on his mind. He has nothing left to defend, only to avenge. He will not raise the golden crane to lead other men to their deaths, but will court death himself without a second thought.

The absolute definition of strength and perseverance, imho.

Lan seems to be cursed with the "need" for modern sensibilities to be depicted on screen. I'll tolerate that supplemental characterization but I must agree that tvLan is too vulnerable and too easily caught-off-guard.  Light, I hope he never gets caught manspreading or attempting to mansplain something regarding tolerance to Nynaeve.  

[Carebear Sedai]

24 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

The probkem is you didn't want the characterization that made Lan what he was...

You wanted something entirely different.

 

The problem is Lan was severely underdeveloped and little beyond a male-fantasy figure and a stereotype of what stoicism is. Of course I would rather this was developed with more nuanced writing. Not all change is bad, but then I suppose this is where we would disagree. 

 

18 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

Basically: "why are they doing all this stuff?"

 

Yes, the writers wanted to show ritual mourning. 100% understood. But... why?

She wanted to know more about the scene. Why did certain people participate in the ritual mourning, why was Lan the one to do it, why was there throat singing, was it a "warder thing," etc? 

 

It is a complete invention of the show, so anything I say would just be speculation. 

 

Ah, I see your point. I wouldn't consider any of this as negatives though. The books limit our view into the world, and I find it enriching to see warder traditions and funerals and things being shown. I'm holding out hope for the Lan/Nynaeve wedding being quite the affair, though obvious we have limited insight to the procession. 

[Gothic Flame]

10 minutes ago, Carebear Sedai said:

 

The problem is Lan was severely underdeveloped and little beyond a male-fantasy figure and a stereotype of what stoicism is.

Not a stereotype.

An archetype, typifying the "Warrior king." And like any stoic it takes time to get to know him...to relax his guard. 

[csmoptop]

   After ep 5, I'm still in the hate category. The whole thing is only very slightly "inspired by" the books in the loosest sense. All of the heavy duty explaining and hard core rationalization about how this extremely different story is really true to the books is just so much noise.

   I have moved from "I hate it with a burning, fiery passion" to "I just really hate it" now, based largely on the fact that 1) the excessive vulgar language e.g.  "pi** in your mouth and tell you it's raining", and "you are such a pri*k" has mostly disappeared, and 2) there hasn't been quite as much gratuitous sex since Rand and Egwene having casual sex in the Winespring Inn. The books weren't sexual until book 5 with the scene with Avienda and Rand, and that was pretty awful, but notice that RJ never repeated a highly graphic sexual encounter like it again in the series, because it went from PG-13 hard into R territory at that point. Lots of families reading with their kids/teens dropped the books at that point as well as adults who dislike graphic sex, like my sister-in-law and several friends.)
Not at all appreciating making the warders into sexual servants of the Aes Sedai, lolling around the fire waiting to be summoned to their Aes Sedai's tents for intimate service. Especially right after Nynaeve tells Lan he isn't how she imagined warders - - that he's not a lapdog with two legs. The juxtaposition was so stupid, it was inadvertently hilarious, rofl!!! And the injection of the bisexual threesome of Alanna and her two intimately cuddly Warders is just so off, it's from some other universe nowhere near WoT.

   There was a line in ep 5 that about made me die laughing, about how men are still in charge in so many places, with the unspoken condemnation that that is a bad thing. I certainly can't tell men are in charge of *anything* in this show except as the leaders of the hated Children of the Light and Hand of the Light - - apparently having men as the leaders and sole members of the evil groups is fine, but not good anywhere else. The books had such fully fleshed, strong female characters, but men were allowed to be leaders, too. The TV show has completely removed all non-evil male leaders thus far: 1) the Mayor and Town Council of Emonds Field are gone, with Meara al'Vere stepping forward in the tavern place of Bran, along with Nynaeve, as town leaders, 2) Ila has taken Raen's place as the Seeker and leader of the Tuatha'an band that Perrin and Egwene fall in with, 3) they completely removed the entire underlying premise for the book series about the male half of the One Power being corrupted and fear of another male channeler breaking the world again so that the Dragon Reborn can be a women or a man; and 4) this isn't the removal of male leadership, just the removal of male charaters period, but all the the Darkfriends that plague Rand and Matt in the books, male and female, become a tough bar owner woman in the nonexistent locale of Breen's Quarry. You know they aren't going to change the traditional Queens of Andor into Kings, nor are they going to change the Far Dareis Mai into the Dudes of the Shield. So why these other changes if not for a completely unnecessary injection of socio-sexual politics? 

   My son and I were totally flabbergasted that in the show, Child Valda has seen Egwene and Perrin once before, with no indication they had anything to do with Aes Sedai or channeling, but because he recognizes them in Ep 5 from a prior innocuous encounter, he grabs and tortures them for zip, zero, nada reason. It made absolutely no sense. 

   Agree with so many others that so much is made up out of whole cloth and so much time is devoted to it; after all the rationalizations that there just isn't time to cover so much important character development and world building from the books, I call BS. What they meant was, it's just too old fashioned and boring a story; look how much better it is with the sex, language, blood and gore and updated sexual sensibilities. How about NO. This show is a hot mess. 

   The only way to save it that I can see is if they do a reboot at the beginning of season 2 by revealing that this season was Lanfear looking into another world via a portal stone and seeing a different turning of the wheel, and then starting over where the books began, and going there instead. It would be awkward and difficult and I doubt Rafe Judkins and the screenwriters of this show are even close to talented enough to pull it off. Jeff Bezos has more money than God and has been throwing $10 billion here for climate change,  two $100 million gifts there to a couple of CNN celebrities, $500 million another place to a charity. He can cover the lost revenue for this mistake without missing a beat and begin anew if he has the guts to do it. 
   There was a ton they could have left out from the books while keeping to the original premise, feel and characters of the books and made it a great TV series, instead of whatever this is. 

   I am just so disappointed with this willfully wrong headed misconception. Oh, for what could have been! ?  ? ? 

Edited December 5, 2021 by csmoptop
repetition of a word, another sentence was awkward

[csmoptop]

1 hour ago, Carebear Sedai said:

The problem is Lan was severely underdeveloped and little beyond a male-fantasy figure and a stereotype of what stoicism is. Of course I would rather this was developed with more nuanced writing. Not all change is bad, but then I suppose this is where we would disagree. 

I disagree. New Spring fleshed Lan out very well. Most of that wouldn't be necessary to the TV series, but some of it would been very simple to include in the show instead of all the extra scenes invented from whole cloth like Egwene being tossed into a river, Nynaeve cleaning the mystery spring, and fighting and killing a Trolloc in it, Nynaeve being dragged off by a Trolloc and killing it, 20 minutes of the attack on Emonds Field including 5 minutes of Moraine winding up her power with lots of from-the-waist windmilling and arm waving, the introduction and killing off of Perrin's wife and the Grinwell family, the burning of the Aes Sedai by Valda scene, most of the stuff with Logain including the laughingly sparsely manned and countered Logain rescue attempt, the scenes of the Aes Sedai keeping Logain contained, the Warders lolling around the fire waiting to be summoned for sex and the introduction of a sexual threesome/bisexuality...I could keep going but the amount of screen time devoted to things that don't exist anywhere in the books is the large majority of this series so far. 

[jesterjim]

Unimpressed... From the first episode I was lost and trying to make sense of the major changes made to the storyline from the original.. Perrin married and killing his wife?.. the river scene start of episode 1...Moraine getting wounded... Pedron Niall out in the field... and the dark friend girl in episode 3...sorry too much diversion from the books for me... I won't be watching more... shame.. I was looking forward to it.. why do they have to do this?... 

[DaddyFinn]

9 minutes ago, jesterjim said:

Pedron Niall out in the field

Geofram Bornhald

 

9 minutes ago, jesterjim said:

the dark friend girl in episode 3

Boys met DF in the book.

[Maximillion]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:01 AM, ArrylT said:

 

That is exactly what I am saying.  I think a lot of what I said got misunderstood or misinterpreted for the part where I was talking about the very small (but people who by the noise they make punch above their weight - just like in politics) portion of people actively doing just that - not the majority of people with honest negative critical feedback.  

 

 

The review you showed and referred to as written by a ‘dark friend’ is actually honest negative feedback. It’s brutally honest in fact and most of it is fair, IMO.
 

Why would anyone want to sabotage the show? 
The feedback is just that. A reaction to what has been presented. 

There are no surprises here. We were told before the show aired that some  book readers would hate it.

 There is also nothing wrong with expressing hatred towards the show. Only hatred towards the actors and the supporting team personally is wrong IMO… but their work? Yeah that can be hated quite legitimately and fairly.

 

More people in this forum, who have taken the time to vote on this thread, hate it than love it.

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Maximillion

[Sabbaday]

My biggest complaint with the series so far is the blatant deviations from the book with no apparent need or reason for them.  Why did they add Egwene as a 4th tav'veren?  Absolutely unnecessary and makes no sense.   Why did they change the way Mat found the dagger?  Again,  the story change was unnecessary and, for me, didn't get the importance of not removing the dagger from  Shadar Logoth across to those watching who had not read the  books.  It has been extremely hard for me to enjoy the series because of these issues and more that I won't bore you with.   I  am so disappointed at the failure to bring us a tv series that shows respect for such an epic story.

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, Sabbaday said:

Why did they add Egwene as a 4th tav'veren? 

That has not been confirmed.

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

That has not been confirmed.

I am hoping there is some back story reveal to that comment by Moraine.

 

My confidence is not that high that it was anything other than a throw away line in the script for a reason to go to the TTR and will never be referenced again.

I would like to know where that rumour came from.

 

[Scarloc99]

9 hours ago, csmoptop said:

   After ep 5, I'm still in the hate category. The whole thing is only very slightly "inspired by" the books in the loosest sense. All of the heavy duty explaining and hard core rationalization about how this extremely different story is really true to the books is just so much noise.

   I have moved from "I hate it with a burning, fiery passion" to "I just really hate it" now, based largely on the fact that 1) the excessive vulgar language e.g.  "pi** in your mouth and tell you it's raining", and "you are such a pri*k" has mostly disappeared, and 2) there hasn't been quite as much gratuitous sex since Rand and Egwene having casual sex in the Winespring Inn. The books weren't sexual until book 5 with the scene with Avienda and Rand, and that was pretty awful, but notice that RJ never repeated a highly graphic sexual encounter like it again in the series, because it went from PG-13 hard into R territory at that point. Lots of families reading with their kids/teens dropped the books at that point as well as adults who dislike graphic sex, like my sister-in-law and several friends.)
Not at all appreciating making the warders into sexual servants of the Aes Sedai, lolling around the fire waiting to be summoned to their Aes Sedai's tents for intimate service. Especially right after Nynaeve tells Lan he isn't how she imagined warders - - that he's not a lapdog with two legs. The juxtaposition was so stupid, it was inadvertently hilarious, rofl!!! And the injection of the bisexual threesome of Alanna and her two intimately cuddly Warders is just so off, it's from some other universe nowhere near WoT.

   There was a line in ep 5 that about made me die laughing, about how men are still in charge in so many places, with the unspoken condemnation that that is a bad thing. I certainly can't tell men are in charge of *anything* in this show except as the leaders of the hated Children of the Light and Hand of the Light - - apparently having men as the leaders and sole members of the evil groups is fine, but not good anywhere else. The books had such fully fleshed, strong female characters, but men were allowed to be leaders, too. The TV show has completely removed all non-evil male leaders thus far: 1) the Mayor and Town Council of Emonds Field are gone, with Meara al'Vere stepping forward in the tavern place of Bran, along with Nynaeve, as town leaders, 2) Ila has taken Raen's place as the Seeker and leader of the Tuatha'an band that Perrin and Egwene fall in with, 3) they completely removed the entire underlying premise for the book series about the male half of the One Power being corrupted and fear of another male channeler breaking the world again so that the Dragon Reborn can be a women or a man; and 4) this isn't the removal of male leadership, just the removal of male charaters period, but all the the Darkfriends that plague Rand and Matt in the books, male and female, become a tough bar owner woman in the nonexistent locale of Breen's Quarry. You know they aren't going to change the traditional Queens of Andor into Kings, nor are they going to change the Far Dareis Mai into the Dudes of the Shield. So why these other changes if not for a completely unnecessary injection of socio-sexual politics? 

   My son and I were totally flabbergasted that in the show, Child Valda has seen Egwene and Perrin once before, with no indication they had anything to do with Aes Sedai or channeling, but because he recognizes them in Ep 5 from a prior innocuous encounter, he grabs and tortures them for zip, zero, nada reason. It made absolutely no sense. 

   Agree with so many others that so much is made up out of whole cloth and so much time is devoted to it; after all the rationalizations that there just isn't time to cover so much important character development and world building from the books, I call BS. What they meant was, it's just too old fashioned and boring a story; look how much better it is with the sex, language, blood and gore and updated sexual sensibilities. How about NO. This show is a hot mess. 

   The only way to save it that I can see is if they do a reboot at the beginning of season 2 by revealing that this season was Lanfear looking into another world via a portal stone and seeing a different turning of the wheel, and then starting over where the books began, and going there instead. It would be awkward and difficult and I doubt Rafe Judkins and the screenwriters of this show are even close to talented enough to pull it off. Jeff Bezos has more money than God and has been throwing $10 billion here for climate change,  two $100 million gifts there to a couple of CNN celebrities, $500 million another place to a charity. He can cover the lost revenue for this mistake without missing a beat and begin anew if he has the guts to do it. 
   There was a ton they could have left out from the books while keeping to the original premise, feel and characters of the books and made it a great TV series, instead of whatever this is. 

   I am just so disappointed with this willfully wrong headed misconception. Oh, for what could have been! ?  ? ? 

Ok I am not sure which books you read but RJ world was full of sex, there are multiple rapes, including the rape of a man by a women Bridgerton Style,  lots of heaving bosoms, the Forsaken have orgies (compulsion driven) to rival the roman emperors. Rand is in a Polyamarous relationship with 3 women, there is hints of a BDSM style relatuionship between Faile and Perrin (behind closed doors she wants him to get angry at her hit her and take her forcefully). No RJ does not directly describe these scenes but they, and more are there. 

 

Brandon Sanderson has talked about the changes and explained that, in an enscemble show with so many characters and actors, and only a limited time to tell the story, changes have to be made to tell the story in the shortest way and where he has told Rafe there is a scene that gets across what you want to try and say with this new Scene, Rafe has been able to explain how and why he has made the change. 

 

I don't care we don't see the council of Emonds Field, the reason we see the Womens Circle and Egwene being braided is because it is important to her character and it introduces her, the noon book reader doesn't need to meet the rest of the village and learn all about the council politics because, frankly, they play absolutely no part in the story that needs to be told. The story of how Rand gets to the final battle. Shadar Logath is only important for 2 reasons, it is used to clear the taint and the dagger stabs Rand giving him the wound that cannot be healed, anything else about that city just isn't important. We need to understand the rules about Warders and Bonding because at the end of the series when Rand is fighting Moridin that is the key tactic used by the dark one to try and turn him mad and make him become the second Lewis Therin. As an aside it is also important to the story of Lan and Nyn. 

 

So far the series is doing exactly what it needs to do, setting up the pieces that are needed for the last battle, the side stories, the extra, bits the niceties, even Bella really don't ultimately matter because Bela isn't an important character at the end and every second spent on anything not involved in the final battle or how the characters get there is a second wasted. So yes there will be scenes and stuff added to the show that don't happen in the book, because Rafe needs to tell in a single scene what we as readers get pages and pages to learn and see. He has 64 hours to tell the story, that is not a lot of time considering LOTR and GOT had almost twice as much time effectively (or the same time to tell a smaller story). Yes the axe will fall and no this is not another turning of the wheel it is what happens when a story is adapted and time and resources are not infinite. To tell the story YOU want will take 150 hours of screen time. 

 

I am sorry you don't like it but, anyone could have adapted this and I imagine you could have found all sorts of holes to pick in it, the book is too big to tell the story as written so whoever adapts it has to take the themes and ideas and shape their own story trying to borrow as much but also heavily re writing otherwise we would have had a mess, the books as written would not work on TV at all. 

[Scarloc99]

11 hours ago, ManetherenTaveren said:

The absolute definition of strength and perseverance, imho.

Lan seems to be cursed with the "need" for modern sensibilities to be depicted on screen. I'll tolerate that supplemental characterization but I must agree that tvLan is too vulnerable and too easily caught-off-guard.  Light, I hope he never gets caught manspreading or attempting to mansplain something regarding tolerance to Nynaeve.  

Lan is a copy paste of Aragorn, Rafe and Amazon do not want WOT to come across as a copy paste of LOTR, I am really pleased with the changes being made to Lan, I always felt he was a one dimensional character in the first few books, there simply so RJ could write cool fight scenes with him, then RJ started to develop him, but I think if RJ wrote WOT today this is the Lan we would get, it is far closer to Lan towards the end of the book then at the start. 

[Scarloc99]

13 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 

Agree.  There are two characters that have actually impressed me for different reasons.

Valda - despite some bad writing in the scene where he first encountered Moraine , Lan, Rand, Egwene, Perrin and Mat - is a good character.  His manner - so matter of fact - seems so perfectly executed for the role.

The other actor I think is really good is Aram.

Moiraine's character is acted quite well too - though becoming tiresome - which she didn't (for me at least) in the books.

 

Moraine frustrated me in the books, in fact a lot of the female characters frustrated me, for all his strengths as an author in putting women front and centre in his world RJ wrote a lot of one dimensional women, I still get frustrated at the 300th instance of a women getting irate with a man for being wool headed and failing to actually see they have a valid point of view, or just refusing to talk to a man because it might show a hint of vulnerability. 

[mogi68]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Lan is a copy paste of Aragorn, Rafe and Amazon do not want WOT to come across as a copy paste of LOTR, I am really pleased with the changes being made to Lan, I always felt he was a one dimensional character in the first few books, there simply so RJ could write cool fight scenes with him, then RJ started to develop him, but I think if RJ wrote WOT today this is the Lan we would get, it is far closer to Lan towards the end of the book then at the start. 

 

It sounds like its been a while since you've read the first few books. They are both outdoorsmen and heirs of fallen kingships, but the similarities end there. They have totally different personalities.

[DaddyFinn]

25 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Ok I am not sure which books you read but RJ world was full of sex, there are multiple rapes, including the rape of a man by a women Bridgerton Style,  lots of heaving bosoms, the Forsaken have orgies (compulsion driven) to rival the roman emperors. Rand is in a Polyamarous relationship with 3 women, there is hints of a BDSM style relatuionship between Faile and Perrin (behind closed doors she wants him to get angry at her hit her and take her forcefully). No RJ does not directly describe these scenes but they, and more are there. 

 

Brandon Sanderson has talked about the changes and explained that, in an enscemble show with so many characters and actors, and only a limited time to tell the story, changes have to be made to tell the story in the shortest way and where he has told Rafe there is a scene that gets across what you want to try and say with this new Scene, Rafe has been able to explain how and why he has made the change. 

 

I don't care we don't see the council of Emonds Field, the reason we see the Womens Circle and Egwene being braided is because it is important to her character and it introduces her, the noon book reader doesn't need to meet the rest of the village and learn all about the council politics because, frankly, they play absolutely no part in the story that needs to be told. The story of how Rand gets to the final battle. Shadar Logath is only important for 2 reasons, it is used to clear the taint and the dagger stabs Rand giving him the wound that cannot be healed, anything else about that city just isn't important. We need to understand the rules about Warders and Bonding because at the end of the series when Rand is fighting Moridin that is the key tactic used by the dark one to try and turn him mad and make him become the second Lewis Therin. As an aside it is also important to the story of Lan and Nyn. 

 

So far the series is doing exactly what it needs to do, setting up the pieces that are needed for the last battle, the side stories, the extra, bits the niceties, even Bella really don't ultimately matter because Bela isn't an important character at the end and every second spent on anything not involved in the final battle or how the characters get there is a second wasted. So yes there will be scenes and stuff added to the show that don't happen in the book, because Rafe needs to tell in a single scene what we as readers get pages and pages to learn and see. He has 64 hours to tell the story, that is not a lot of time considering LOTR and GOT had almost twice as much time effectively (or the same time to tell a smaller story). Yes the axe will fall and no this is not another turning of the wheel it is what happens when a story is adapted and time and resources are not infinite. To tell the story YOU want will take 150 hours of screen time. 

 

I am sorry you don't like it but, anyone could have adapted this and I imagine you could have found all sorts of holes to pick in it, the book is too big to tell the story as written so whoever adapts it has to take the themes and ideas and shape their own story trying to borrow as much but also heavily re writing otherwise we would have had a mess, the books as written would not work on TV at all. 

I agree with most of what you said but I do want to see some of the plotlines, little moments etc. that are not directly relevant to the Last Battle.

[Scarloc99]

19 hours ago, shiningwalls said:

To me the show doesn’t qualify as an “adaptation” of the books; it’s at best a work of fan fiction that uses the characters and the mythology from the books (albeit with great liberties taken) to create something that bears only a superficial resemblance to the source material.

Many who like the show defend the points of departure from the books by saying that the books are too long and detailed to be realistically adapted for the screen given time and other limitations, hence changes are inevitable.

I agree that it’s not realistic to expect every detail in the books to be adapted for the screen; many exclusions are undoubtedly necessary.

But that certainly does NOT entail making new stuff up in place of the original material!

You are making that assumption after 5 episodes, let s wait and see after 64 episodes and the season has ended that the whole story Rafe tells is. 

Also Peter Jackson was maligned by many many fans for removing Tom Bombadil, if the internet had been what it is now I imagine it would have been review bombed and criticised for replacing Glorfindal with Arwen (I can see that being called a woke moment in some parts of the internet). he also added in scenes that don't happen in the book, Aragorn fighting the Wargs, the army of the dead arriving at Gondor. 

 

What has Rafe actually changed in terms of the lore, not what scenes has he added, but what has he actually changed. Some are assuming he has made it that the Dragon can be a women, when he has said several times that no, it is just that the Aes Sedai don't understand how the wheel works and think the Dragon could be a women. That does not mean the lore has changed. 

 

Rafe has, over 5 episodes, got most of the main characters including Loial and Padin to Tar Valon, and I imagine next episode will get Perrin and Egwene there as well. Mat has the knife and is suffering from it's effects, Thom is missing presumed dead, Logain is Gentled ready to be healed by Nyn so he can help Rand, Perrin is starting to realise he understands wolves and we know Shades, Trollocs, Darkfriends Aes Sedai and Warders exist. We also understand the Bond between a Warder and an Aes Sedai a bit more. 

He has given hints as to the sexual nature RJ added in later on, with suggestions of 3 somes and the scene between Egwene and Rand, in the books none of this happens until later on and then, bang we are presented with rapes, and orgies, and other events that could be filmed in a way to make GOT look positively child friendly (I don't think they will, I think there will be a lot of James Bond style camera panning away moments). 

 

So tell me after 5 episodes what has Rafe missed out in telling the story that needs to be told? How Rand gets to the last battle and beats the Dark One? Because so far he has hit every story beat up to this point in the book. Now you might dislike how he has done it, but, I would argue another writer might do it in a way you like, but then upset the readers who are enjoying it. Because the most succesful adaptations upset people, the worst ones try to please everyone and become an incomprehensible mess that try to please everyone and end up worse for it, and more importantly to Amazon, upset the millions and millions who have never read the books but are tuning in every Friday to watch the next episode. The series is ultimately theirs, not ours as readers, because there are not enough of us to make it financially viable to film the Wheel of time. 

 

19 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I agree with most of what you said but I do want to see some of the plotlines, little moments etc. that are not directly relevant to the Last Battle.

I hope we get some of those as well, but I get that Rafe has to pick and choose moments that can be told quickly and not divert away from that main story arc. In some ways the things that made the world so rich where also the downside of RJ's writing in that he turned small side plots into epic journeys all on their own that didn't really resolve to anything. Padin Fain is a great example, a story thread that weaved all the way through with no real plan as to how to resolve it. 

 

21 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

 

It sounds like its been a while since you've read the first few books. They are both outdoorsmen and heirs of fallen kingships, but the similarities end there. They have totally different personalities.

I have just finished EOTW and am partway through the Great Hunt now and still see Lan as a copy in many ways of Aragorn and RJ himself admitted that EOTW is in some ways a love letter to the Lord of the Rings so it would make sense he wrote Lan to be his Aragorn. later on the character changes, but the silent, stocism, the leading of the group, the willingness to sacrifice himself. The only difference is that Aragorn never threatens to kill the Hobbits if they look like they are about to go the way of the dark one. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Sir_Charrid

[Gothic Flame]

"The rose petal floats on water," Lan recited softly. "The kingfisher flashes above the pond. Life and beauty swirl in the midst of death."

   "Yes," Agelmar said. "Yes. That one has always symbolized the whole of it to me, too."

   Poetry out of Lan? The man was like an onion; every time Rand thought he knew something about the Warder, he discovered another layer underneath.

----

...Lan...one dimensional?

I guess some have read the books once...upon a time long ago.

 

11 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

The only difference is that Aragorn never threatens to kill the Hobbits if they look like they are about to go the way of the dark one.

And where in the books is this?

[Scarloc99]

5 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

And where in the books is this?

Right at the start when they escape Emonds Field, Lan tells the boys his allegiance is to Morraine and if at any point he thinks they will put her at risk, or seem at risk of being caught then he will kill them, Morraine makes the same threat to them in a different way. At the start of the books they 2 of them use alot of fear to keep them all in line. 

[shiningwalls]

10 hours ago, Carebear Sedai said:

 

The problem is Lan was severely underdeveloped and little beyond a male-fantasy figure and a stereotype of what stoicism is. Of course I would rather this was developed with more nuanced writing. Not all change is bad, but then I suppose this is where we would disagree. 

 

With respect, if you think Lan is an underdeveloped character in the books, you might need to do a closer and more thoughtful reading.

 

In New Spring, we’re introduced to a man who is bound by the cultural traditions of a dead nation, emotionally (and sometimes literally) entangled by feelings towards his carneira (a woman responsible for his sexual awakening and thus an important part of his coming of age), a man who by virtue of being the surviving heir to the kingdom has no choice but to be more than just a man but a veritable symbol, a rallying point for his scattered people and even the other nations of the Borderlands, and who chafes at that burden and the expectations, a man who bears the emotional scars of one orphaned at a young age by tragedy and exiled from his homeland, a man who is yes strong and stoic, proud and chivalrous, but who in little moments scattered throughout the books shows that he is vulnerable, he can be goaded to anger, he is torn between his duty to the one who holds his bond and his love for the one who holds his heart, and yes who does suffer anguish when Moiraine’s ‘death’ severs the bond.

 

Quoting from Ch.22 of The Great Hunt:

“that young woman had put cracks in Lan’s walls and seeded the cracks with creepers. Lan thought he was secure, imprisoned in his fortress by fate and his own wishes, but slowly, patiently, the creepers were tearing down the walls to bare the man within. Already he was sharing some of Nynaeve’s loyalties”.

 

That’s a lot of backstory – political, cultural, psychological – and development for a character who, though a major figure, still plays a supporting role. And we certainly do not need an overwrought scene of him literally beating his breast and screaming to know that he is a man who feels deeply. Some people are not by nature outwardly demonstrative, and that’s part of character and characterization. 

 

More generally, there’s a lot of discussion of changing Robert Jordan’s writing or “improving” it. Perhaps that’s where the problem starts, a lack of recognition and respect for his original vision and the world and characters he created. If any character or story in the books is so objectionable to the show’s creators that they have to be changed radically, then why bother using those characters? Why not just make up new ones entirely? At some point, if there are too many changes or wholesale (re)inventions, then it just defeats the purpose of adapting an existing work; better just to create a new fictional universe entirely.

 

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

10 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Right at the start when they escape Emonds Field, Lan tells the boys his allegiance is to Morraine and if at any point he thinks they will put her at risk, or seem at risk of being caught then he will kill them, Morraine makes the same threat to them in a different way. At the start of the books they 2 of them use alot of fear to keep them all in line. 

Only see the threat against Thom.

The three caballeros she keeps at the bit " I intend to see you safely in Tar Valon" the implications isn't as pleasant as it seems however as it sounds threatening.

[ManetherenTaveren]

54 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Lan is a copy paste of Aragorn, Rafe and Amazon do not want WOT to come across as a copy paste of LOTR,

Comparing Lan to Aragorn is high praise indeed! RJ paid excellent homage to Tolkien in many ways, as have countless others. I guess the trollocs could be seen as Uruk hai, and the fades could be Nazgul....and so on, and so on.... They are comparable but nowhere near copies. I found Lan's story and characterization fascinating, even before RJ decided to flesh out Moraine and him in New Spring, even before Nynaeve came into his life to examine/test his bond...  RJ even gave Lan a cool cape! ? But that coolness cannot be replicated on screen easily, but emo stuff can.

 

At least RJ didn't create Lan in the likeness of Conan the Barbarian...

[Ralph]

17 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Only see the threat against Thom.

The three caballeros she keeps at the bit " I intend to see you safely in Tar Valon" the implications isn't as pleasant as it seems however as it sounds threatening.

EotW ch 13

 

  “Is that the way you all feel? You are all eager to run off to Illian and forget about Trollocs, and Halfmen, and Draghkar?” She ran her eyes over them—that stony glint playing against the everyday tone of voice made Rand uneasy—but she gave no one a chance to speak. “The Dark One is after you three, one or all, and if I let you go running off wherever you want to go, he will take you. Whatever the Dark One wants, I oppose, so hear this and know it true. Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself.”

  It was her voice, so matter-of-fact, that convinced Rand. The Aes Sedai would do exactly what she said, if she thought it was necessary. 

[fra85uk]

27 minutes ago, shiningwalls said:

 

 

More generally, there’s a lot of discussion of changing Robert Jordan’s writing or “improving” it. Perhaps that’s where the problem starts, a lack of recognition and respect for his original vision and the world and characters he created. If any character or story in the books is so objectionable to the show’s creators that they have to be changed radically, then why bother using those characters? Why not just make up new ones entirely? At some point, if there are too many changes or wholesale (re)inventions, then it just defeats the purpose of adapting an existing work; better just to create a new fictional universe entirely.

 

 

 

This is the problem.

These showrunners DO NOT LIKE WoT and think they can "fix" it. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by fra85uk