On "Wokeness" and the Wheel of Time - Be Thoughtful in Responding

[Deadsy]

This is the type of rumor that will never be verified, so imo the conversation has no real purpose and potentially shouldn't be allowed. 

That said agreed with others. You don't just suddenly decide to make Mat gay or bi and never bothered to find out if your actor is the type who would refuse to film the scenes. Nor does the showrunner then rave about you in interviews after leaving for such a lame reason, especially when he is gay himself. They went a couple months without even mentioning him - it isn't necessary to bring him up now and Rafe wouldn't do that if he left due to this.

 

This sounds more like another stupid rumor birthed from the nightmares of homophobes.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Deadsy

[ManetherenTaveren]

I could care less about wokeness in lieu of good storytelling, but I imagine the Aes Sedai will have an open-minded sexual attitude, regardless of ajah. I also predict the Whitecloaks will be ripe with hypocrites and ignorance. I'm looking forward to how the Two Rivers yokels adapt, assimilate, and integrate into their bizarrely diverse world during their incredible journey.

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, Deadsy said:

This is the type of rumor that will never be verified, so imo the conversation has no real purpose and potentially shouldn't be allowed. 

That said agreed with others. You don't just suddenly decide to make Mat gay or bi and never bothered to find out if your actor is the type who would refuse to film the scenes. Nor does the showrunner then rave about you in interviews after leaving for such a lame reason, especially when he is gay himself. They went a couple months without even mentioning him - it isn't necessary to bring him up now and Rafe wouldn't do that if he left due to this.

 

This sounds more like another stupid rumor birthed from the nightmares of homophobes.

 

Or top-class trolling

[Maximillion]

11 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Source for this?

 

 

 

I don’t believe it’s true.

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Maximillion

[Wraith235]

17 hours ago, Deadsy said:

This is the type of rumor that will never be verified, 

Not Necessarily True 
now don't get me wrong I don't believe it either and agree that it serves no purpose other than to incite people .....

Imagine what happens if we see Mat in a gay sex scene in season 2 (not that I expect this in the slightest because this is another one that will turn the original fans away ) but that would be about all the verification I would need 
 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Wraith235

[Katherine]

21 hours ago, Siberian Rat said:

Seen a lot of talk of "wokeness" about this upcoming TV show, which I firmly believe is completely overblown fearmongring by reactionaries, possibly spurred on by the usual type of right-wing internet grifters. (Think of the annual "War on Christmas".)
It probably doesn't help that the marketing fr ths show has emphasized the "wokeness" or whatever, which IMHO is just marketing for what otherwise is going to be a pretty normal fantasy TV series. Remember the hullabaloo about how Mad Max: Fury Road was going to be "Feminist" because of some consultant they hired on for production? Well, it turned out to be a pretty good Film in any case. Unfortunately I don't have that much hope for the WOT series, but that has more to do with the "non-woke" divergences from the source material, and various production designs. (Czechoslovak movies from the 50s have better production values. Look up the Hussite Trilogy.)

Frankly, I don't think there will even be a third season, one of the main cast quitting after season 1 (apparently because he objected to filming gay sex scenes) does not bode well for the rest of the show. Not to mention that Amazon will go all in on LOTR if the first season tests well.

TL;DR: The show won't be all that "woke", and the whole thing is just a Marketing strategy, using Manufactured Outrage to create a buzz.

 

Incidentally, this is what a lot of /pol/tards really believe.

 

 

This is an excellent point. I forgot that about Mad Max: Fury Road..... that was an EXCELLENT film with great characters.

[Reader]

Well if we're inventing purely made up woke speculation, can anyone join in?

 

Season 1 - potential female Dragon, even though we know it won't happen, but it does still kind of break the world reality that we were expecting WoT to be set in. I think this has been covered though.

Season 2 - Mental Health. It's a bit problematic to say that madness would only affect Saidin wielding channelers, and does a big disservice to everyone else who have had to pick up the pieces after the men have murdered everyone that they've ever known, and made a couple of new mountains.  Maybe change it from a madness to some sort of toxin or something.  That only affects men.

Season 3 - big focus on racism, but based on the Aiel. And as the Desert Gingers are white, it's ok.

Season 4 - Migration. Lots of people migrating due to civil war in the west, refugees welcome in Emond's Field - there's a bit of uncharitable behaviour from the Congars, but Perrin sorts it out.

Season 5  - Modern Day Slavery. Probably based on what the Shaido did in Malden. Not sure what, I kind of skimmed over those chapters.

Season 6 - War, what is it good for. The Seanchan believes that the White Tower has a weapon of mass destruction that can be deployed in 15 minutes. Lots of people die as a result. Nobody mentions Tony Blair.

Season 7 - Climate Change.  The Dark One is touching the cloth of the world and the climate is changing. Can all the nations switch from Balefire Energy to Bowl of the Wind Power in time? We can only hope.

 

I just hope that the TV Adaptation doesn't turn into some sort of escape from the probems of the world that we all have to live with, and instead subtly injects it into each episode of the series, so that we are all better people for having watched it.

 

[Elder_Haman]

[Rose]

27 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

I was about to say, many of these seem alright and pretty in line with what's already in the books ?

[Reader]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

don't spoil my fun ?

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, Reader said:

Season 2 - Mental Health

 

Funny.. I was thinking about Perrin's wife dying in the beginning, because his eyes turning color, and wolves talking to him, and worried that he might be labeled a "dark friend" wasn't enough.

[Siberian Rat]

1 hour ago, Reader said:

Season 1 -

Season 1 theme: Coming out.

[NotRand]

This is a general comment about why the woke  label is already being slapped on the series. As one commenter already pointed out , the books were very diverse in the manner in which RJ set up the world- it was broken and pockets of cultures existed separate from one another. Part of the saga of the series is the growth the EF 5 go through by being exposed to these other cultures, so it makes sense they would all be of the same ‘race’ - the diversity in the books is introduced with other characters as the EF meet them or their stories are introduced in the novels. If the writers / producers decide to cast a white or Asian person as Tuon, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? And if the argument to not do that is Tuon’s race is central to Mat’s attraction to her, well, that’s thrown out the window because he grew up with girls who look like her in this new version of EF field,  which means she can be cast as a white long haired blonde. 
I don’t personally want to see this. That’s not who she is in the books, but if you can change Nyneave and Egwene and Perrin for the sake of diversity, you can change anyone and that doesn’t make any sense. But then nobody should complain when they recast Tuon as a blonde. 

[Rose]

1 hour ago, NotRand said:

Tuon’s race is central to Mat’s attraction to her

 

Where are you getting this from?

 

As for the "casting controversy," this horse has already been beaten to death and personally, I'm tired of talking about it. There's plenty of discussion of this topic on the forum already if you want to look for it, including on this thread a few pages back.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Rose

[TheMountain]

 

28 minutes ago, Rose said:

As for the "casting controversy," this horse has already been beaten to death and personally, I'm tired of talking about it. There's plenty of discussion of this topic on the forum already if you want to look for it, including on this thread a few pages back.

 

Indeed. This is a silly hill to die on in my opinion... there are much bigger fish to fry. I'm much more concerned about changes to the core plot points, magic system, etc.

 

It's done already, no amount of complaining will change the fact that the main characters have already been cast. It also makes it easy for people to strawman and lump anybody who is critical of the show in with racists. It undermines genuine and potentially impactful criticism.

 

There are some things that can potentially still be course-corrected in future seasons. Let's focus on those.

Edited November 14, 2021 by TheMountain

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

I'm having a watch party this Friday ... Like many of you! [I've waited about 20 yrs for this - so hopes and fears are high]. 

 

Half my party are fans of the books like me. Half have never heard of WoT. All of us can't stand the "woke" agenda Hollywood has decided to push upon us. 

 

I agree with @Beidomon who eloquently pointed out @Elder haman that your initial post is a straw man. I'm a huge fan of WoT and have enjoyed the DM community in the months leading up to this release. 

 

Here is what I think of as "woke" and what would be THE heart-breaking deal breaker for me for WoTTv:

 

#1. White, straight men are to blame for all the problems of the world - black, gay women must save it.

(Amazing how the crowd that preaches this doesn't see how sexist and racist it is - the very things their trying to defeat??). 

 

#2. Having a binary gender system/belief isn't inclusive enough - be whatever you want/you should choose your pronoun based on how you feel (even at 5, 6, 7 years old). Nevermind that, that's a terrible way to find identity (who the hell knows who they are as a kid). And even though a non-binary message is highly offensive to ... yup, basically all religious people (well, at least the monotheistic/big three of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) they'll still preach it - because who cares if you offend those people ... Which brings me to #3. 

 

#3. We appreciate/accept/celebrate everybody's beliefs and backgrounds ... well, except for Judeo-Christian beliefs ... We despise and reject their point of view. Their beliefs come from the oppressive, rich, white men who enslaved people (nevermind that Christianity was born in the Middle-East, it's central figure is a Jewish peasant who died a slaves death, and the majority of the world-wide Church are non-white, under 20, women. Or that the Civil Rights Movement in the US were lead by Black Pastors. Or that the people responsible for fighting against slavery were Christians). 

 

#4. Sexuality of all kinds should be celebrated. (Nevermind that for those religious people I mentioned ... It's highly offensive/sin.) 

 

Now ... Be honest people. From the promo material, if you define "woke" how I did, how do you think the WoT is going to do??? 

 

I really hope, they just stick to the books ... Or at least, that the changes they make are to adapt the books to screen in the best way possible...and not to push the above agenda. If they do...my crew will be done...and I'll be heartbroken! 

 

[SinisterDeath]

9 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

I'm having a watch party this Friday ... Like many of you! [I've waited about 20 yrs for this - so hopes and fears are high]. 

 

Half my party are fans of the books like me. Half have never heard of WoT. All of us can't stand the "woke" agenda Hollywood has decided to push upon us. 

 

I agree with @Beidomon who eloquently pointed out @Elder haman that your initial post is a straw man. I'm a huge fan of WoT and have enjoyed the DM community in the months leading up to this release. 

 

Here is what I think of as "woke" and what would be THE heart-breaking deal breaker for me for WoTTv:

 

#1. White, straight men are to blame for all the problems of the world - black, gay women must save it.

(Amazing how the crowd that preaches this doesn't see how sexist and racist it is - the very things their trying to defeat??). 

 

#2. Having a binary gender system/belief isn't inclusive enough - be whatever you want/you should choose your pronoun based on how you feel (even at 5, 6, 7 years old). Nevermind that, that's a terrible way to find identity (who the hell knows who they are as a kid). And even though a non-binary message is highly offensive to ... yup, basically all religious people (well, at least the monotheistic/big three of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) they'll still preach it - because who cares if you offend those people ... Which brings me to #3. 

 

#3. We appreciate/accept/celebrate everybody's beliefs and backgrounds ... well, except for Judeo-Christian beliefs ... We despise and reject their point of view. Their beliefs come from the oppressive, rich, white men who enslaved people (nevermind that Christianity was born in the Middle-East, it's central figure is a Jewish peasant who died a slaves death, and the majority of the world-wide Church are non-white, under 20, women. Or that the Civil Rights Movement in the US were lead by Black Pastors. Or that the people responsible for fighting against slavery were Christians). 

 

#4. Sexuality of all kinds should be celebrated. (Nevermind that for those religious people I mentioned ... It's highly offensive/sin.) 

 

Now ... Be honest people. From the promo material, if you define "woke" how I did, how do you think the WoT is going to do??? 

 

I really hope, they just stick to the books ... Or at least, that the changes they make are to adapt the books to screen in the best way possible...and not to push the above agenda. If they do...my crew will be done...and I'll be heartbroken! 

 

 

To summarize that post, there is a belief that the "woke agenda" specifically seeks to criminalize and villainize "Christian Straight White Men", aka the single most oppressed group in all of human history, past, present, or future.

 

It astounds me, how often peoples' entire personality is predicated on being the "biggest victim".

[AusLeviathan]

6 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

#4. Sexuality of all kinds should be celebrated. (Nevermind that for those religious people I mentioned ... It's highly offensive/sin.) 

As far as the books are concerned, all kinds of sexuality are accepted in the WOT world so that would just be following canon.

[Siberian Rat]

22 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

As far as the books are concerned, all kinds of sexuality are accepted in the WOT world

It seemes very prudish about it though, not much non-heteronormative stuff going on, at least not openly. The closest is the vague hints at the equivalent of English public school... activities.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Siberian Rat

[Rose]

53 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

#2. Having a binary gender system/belief isn't inclusive enough - be whatever you want/you should choose your pronoun based on how you feel (even at 5, 6, 7 years old). Nevermind that, that's a terrible way to find identity (who the hell knows who they are as a kid). And even though a non-binary message is highly offensive to ... yup, basically all religious people (well, at least the monotheistic/big three of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) they'll still preach it

 

Just to clarify, are you saying that you find non-binary people's existence offensive? Or that it's acceptable to hold such a view?

 

56 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Sexuality of all kinds should be celebrated. (Nevermind that for those religious people I mentioned ... It's highly offensive/sin.) 

 

And again, clarifying: are you saying that you consider some kinds of sexuality (which you've conveniently left out) to be offensive and sinful? And if yes, would you care to clarify which ones?

 

Asking because I thought homophobia was against Dragonmount's code of conduct. So I'm trying to figure out if I'm misunderstanding you, or if casually queerphobic statements are actually allowed here as long as they're made in a sufficiently roundabout way to pass under the moderators' radar.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

To summarize that post, there is a belief that the "woke agenda" specifically seeks to criminalize and villainize "Christian Straight White Men", aka the single most oppressed group in all of human history, past, present, or future.

 

It astounds me, how often peoples' entire personality is predicated on being the "biggest victim".

 

That's a red herring mixed with ad hominem argument (you didn't actually refute that that's an accurate description of "woke" but rather changed the argument to ... "you're just playing a victim card")

 

But I will say, it's not entirely off; because yes, the woke agenda wants to criminalize and villianize christian white men precisely because they are not oppressed & CRT is all about power-dynamics and oppressed vs oppressors. 

 

Now, to go back to WoT being "woke". Let me be clear...er. I love the WoT because of Jordan's magnificent world building and attention to detail and, as he says in his Audible interviews, he explored what it would be like for Small-Town, backwoods, country folk to be told "Come along on this grand adventure. Save the world." And he thought, they would probably be pretty resistant and suspicious and, well, backwoods about it. 

 

So if you want to be faithful to WoT - you have got to explore that! 

 

But I also I like in WoT that there are powerful women, diverse cultures and cultural dynamics and prejudices and sexism and arrogance and stuff. I think there's plenty of material in WoT to explore some different sexuality perspectives. All that is fine - because it's WoT. 

 

What I am NoT ok with/would be done with it is: if they dramatically change the story (rather than adapt the story as faithfully as possible) to push the agenda I mentioned (let's not divert the argument again to ... whether or not you agree with the people who don't like that agenda). 

 

Now, my friends who are not WoT fans ... Don't care if you change the story from the books (obviously), but they would stop watching the show if it gets politically preachy/has the agenda I mentioned being pushed at them. 

 

 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

40 minutes ago, Rose said:

Just to clarify, are you saying that you find non-binary people's existence offensive? Or that it's acceptable to hold such a view?

 

No. My dad is Transgender. I love him. I disagree with his choices and beliefs, we're still family.

 

What's annoying about the current political tensions is that people can't seem to have kind, person honoring conversations with people who hold very different views. 

 

I can 100% love gay and transgender people (and do) & also 100% believe they are just as much of a sinner as I am (I.E the Christian message).

 

What Hollywood (and your saying the DM community??? I hope not) doesn't seem to get is that very thing - that something other than the identity you want to choose - gender or sexuality - can be the core of who you are ... And therefore, I can sooo love you as person and not agree with your beliefs or perspectives. 

 

For example, Rose, I sooo appreciate your optimism on DM. You have a curiosity to explore what could be great about the WoTTv's changes. That encourages me. 

I can disagree and think that all the changes are going to be just aweful. Aweful. Aweful. But I hope we can still be DM friends. 

 

Sinister has been super helpful to me on DM. And I know he loves Marvel. I think that's cool. He's a super smart dude too. So his critique that perhaps there's a victim mentality in the anti-woke crowd. I think he's probably right. That's the cultural climate. Victims rising up against their oppressors. 

Makes me think. I appreciate him. Even if we see stuff dramatically different not on DM. 

 

 

[Pembie]

I get what Robert Jardon wanted to do giving the women the powerful magic in this story but there are times that they women treat the men awful like Mat who doesn’t really do anything wrong and Rand getting no say on who he dates is just rather odd Faile always being jealous about Perrin is getting rather annoying they don’t really treat men with much respect in this world 

 

So I don’t know it might get annoying for viewers 

[Rose]

Being queer isn't a "choice" or a "belief" and I'm not interested in engaging with conversations that imply it's okay to think I shouldn't exist.

 

The discourse here has been getting worse by the day and I'm tired of having to defend my humanity.

 

It's been nice hanging out here with you all, but there are other fan communities.

 

Take care everyone.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

@Rose I'm not saying that you shouldn't exist (and I hope nobody else here is either). 

 

I'm saying...you are awesome. You are an encouragement. I love your positivity. You're a gift to this community. And your humanity ...nah, you ... are infinitely valuable.