IGN Explainer - the Dark One

[DaddyFinn]

7 minutes ago, Ryan al'Thor said:

But until it is mentioned, it doesn’t exist.

Guilty until proven innocent?

[Deadsy]

10 minutes ago, Ryan al'Thor said:

Yeah I never said there was evidence. But until it is mentioned, it doesn’t exist.

 

 

You are one of the people who seens to be pretty upset about the changes, in a topic where people are upset they might not have saidin and saidar. So it seemed that way. 

 

Also. you could complain about literally anything using this reasoning. The season is going to be 7 hours long or whatever. Worrying about lack of mentions when we have 6 mins of content is a pretty paranoid outlook. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Deadsy

[Jackdaw_Fool]

24 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

You’re basically not agreeing that TV show and movie adaptations of fantasy books are light on delving into the minute details, which is incorrect.

No, I don't agree that the change would be minute.

 

Eta: I think you're basically saying the change would be minute because they are not going to delve into the details... Well yes, you can use that reasoning for literally anything.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Jackdaw_Fool

[Deadsy]

36 minutes ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

No, I don't agree that the change would be minute.

 

Eta: I think you're basically saying the change would be minute because they are not going to delve into the details... Well yes, you can use that reasoning for literally anything.

 

 

No, that’s not what I’m saying.

 

The change impacts almost nothing about the world. So yes I think it’s minute.

 

But it’s not minute because I think they won’t delve into the details. I’m saying the minor details it changes are not important enough to mention in the TV show. They are that insignificant. I don’t think they were ever going to be quoting prophecies left and right. I don’t think the minor changes that would have happened in WT behavior are important. I don’t think it matters that a man or a woman could use callandor. The major problem for angsty Rand when it came to facing the DO as it relates to callandor is he didn’t trust anyone. I doubt he would have trusted an Asha’man either. On top of that as they learn men and women are stronger together and they need both saidin and saidar, that is enough reason to link with them when using callandor. Literally none of these details are the kind of thing that ends up in TV and film. Rand will link with Nynaeve and Moiraine because he trusts them and thinks he needs saidar to defeat the Dark One. Although, I suppose it would be better if Rand found out it has to be used with men and women linked due to the flaw. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Deadsy

[MasterAblar]

I agree that since they're probably not gonna bring up the lore that contradicts the change it ends up not being an issue. What little they might need to bring up (such as the prophecies and Gitara's foretelling), they can modify so it doesn't contradict Moiraine's statements. Since Rand will be revealed as the Dragon Reborn relatively quickly, the whole question can be put behind just as quickly.

 

That being said if has so little impact then I really question why they're making the change in the first place. Hopefully they have a really good reason for it. Because if they never do anything whatsoever with the fact that the world believes the Dragon Reborn could be/could have been a woman, then I will not be pleased.

Edited November 7, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Jackdaw_Fool]

 

35 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

The change impacts almost nothing about the world. So yes I think it’s minute.

I haven't convinced you the changes should be major, and you haven't convinced me the changes would be minor. That's fine.

 

In general I'm not excited about lots of changes being made to sell the show to a wider audience without really standing behind those changes and having the integrity to show us any reason why those changes have been made. Ok showrunners, so you thought modifying the lore of the books to have the possibility of a female dragon was something you wanted to do in the tv series, show me why that was a good idea. Don't just expect me to be good with it because ratings, otherwise I'm going to think you are just pandering to a certain audience. To use the recent hypothesis a few posts back of making Egwene gay... If they have her be gay, but that doesn't actually affect her character or the story in any way, and they've made the change just to attempt to garner better ratings, well those types of things tend to make for not very good shows.

 

And they do have over seven hours or whatever it is to present basically the first book in the series. This isn't just a two hour movie. I think they should be able to get into more of the interesting details that set the world of the books apart from other fantasy works than maybe you are thinking they can. I expect them to anyway.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Jackdaw_Fool

[Youss99]

The more I read about the likely changes to come, the less I want to watch the show.  I hope that first episode is damn good, because otherwise it's going to be the last one too.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Here's my current guess in terms of adding more representation.

 

They won't make Egwene the Dragon, of course. That's ridiculous.

However, Egwene might be gay.  Rand loves her still, she still expects to marry Rand. Two Rivers is remote and rural and you live the way you are expected to live, no matter what you personally feel.  Rand is a nice guy, a friend, of course she would end up with him.  However, over the course of the story, Egwene could realize (as she does in the books) that she doesn't love Rand in the same way he loves her.  This happens in the books, but the fact that Egwene is not attracted in that way to men could be an additional reason.

This gives us plenty of reason to remove Gawain completely, which people have wanted to do anyway.  Or they could keep him, but they come to a relationship similar to Lan and Moiraine, rather than a sexual relationship.  That'd be good too.  It gives LGBT representation in a major character with an actual coming out arc, but it doesn't change anything practical about the story at all.  

i would accept that. egwene never expressed much sexual inclination during the story. even her story with gawyn felt mostly out of nowhere - and she rarely thought about him otherwise. even when she could have visited him every night had she wanted.

 

making mat or perrin or min gay would have been a huge deviation from books that would have required a lot of retelling of the characters. but egwene lesbian and elayne bisexual, those are changes that could easily fit into the characters

 

1 hour ago, Ryan al'Thor said:

Yeah I never said there was evidence. But until it is mentioned, it doesn’t exist.

they never mentioned caemlyn, so i guess there will be a big hole in the map where it used to be. perhaps in this turning of the wheel an asteroid struck andor and left a crater in its place...

 

1 hour ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

Feasibility of translating and budgetary reasons aren't being discussed here so far by me... My reply is specifically concerning making changes only for commercial success and not having the integrity to follow through with the impact of those changes on the world. 

i just checked sara nakamura twitter, and she explicitly addressed that by explicitly stating that every change was analyzed for its impact on the story and world.

and i can trust her on that. i know they made a lot of changes, some for adaptation purpose, some just for marketing, and i am sure some i will like and some i won't. but i can at least believe that they did spend some time to figure out how those changes would impact the world, and try to address that.

[Deadsy]

50 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I agree that since they're probably not gonna bring up the lore that contradicts the change it ends up not being an issue. What little they might need to bring up (such as the prophecies and Gitara's foretelling), they can modify so it doesn't contradict Moiraine's statements. Since Rand will be revealed as the Dragon Reborn relatively quickly, the whole question can be put behind just as quickly.

 

That being said if has so little impact then I really question why they're making the change in the first place. Hopefully they have a really good reason for it. Because if they never do anything whatsoever with the fact that the world believes the Dragon Reborn could be/could have been a woman, then I will not be pleased.

 

 

I'm not really following the logic here. The change was clearly to add intrigue and increase the mystery for people not familiar with the story. The impact they are expecting is that more people will stay glued to the story, and keep watching, and then the other elements of the story will take over and by the end of season 1 that storyline will be done with. I feel people aren't really empathetic to what the show creators need to do in order to do all of the seasons they need. Making sure they get to tell the whole story is going to be at the top of the list, and that requires viewers and revenue, but it will always be weighed with whether any changes are too impactful to the story to be worth doing.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Deadsy

[Ralph]

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/oh-wow-this-could-be-massive-madeleine-madden-readies-for-stardom-20211104-p5961h.html

 

“In fantasy there are no limits or boundaries,” she says. “The worlds are so epic. A lot of people like losing themselves in these fantastical worlds. I think The Wheel of Time is really unique in this genre because we address universal themes. We explore sexual identity, race and gender equality, which can be quite difficult to find in the fantasy genre."

 

 

[Ralph]

Gender equality yes of course

 

Where does the series explore sexual identity and race? 

 

Is this new information? 

 

This is not an invitation for the woke-allergic to start again. I am curious what exactly she is referring to

Edited November 7, 2021 by Ralph

[MasterAblar]

Only thing I can think of regarding race would be how people treat the Aiel. Can't think of anything regarding sexual identity.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

So ..  especially for @Rose who likes to do the positive thought experiments about what the changes could mean ... I want to pose a new question/thought experiment: 

 

How much does it change the story to have Egwene (and Nynaeve?) think that they might be the DR??? 

[MasterAblar]

12 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

I'm not really following the logic here. The change was clearly to add intrigue and increase the mystery for people not familiar with the story. The impact they are expecting is that more people will stay glued to the story, and keep watching, and then the other elements of the story will take over and by the end of season 1 that storyline will be done with. I feel people aren't really empathetic to what the show creators need to do in order to do all of the seasons they need. Making sure they get to tell the whole story is going to be at the top of the list, and that requires viewers and revenue, but it will always be weighed with whether any changes are too impactful to the story to be worth doing.

 

They could easily have a mystery regarding the identity of the DR without the changes though. And regardless the mystery gets cleared up by the end of the first book. If the intention is to keep people intrigued as to the identity of the DR then that's not gonna last long. Adding one extra person to a mystery for just a few episodes? Doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

So if they are in fact changing this (never trust trailers), then I hope that it will have ramifications beyond the scope of the mystery such as exploring how the world reacts to a male DR and not a female one. That won't necessarily make me happy with the change but at least I can accept there's some value added by it.

[Reader]

12 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Gender equality yes of course

 

Where does the series explore sexual identity and race? 

 

Is this new information? 

 

This is not an invitation for the woke-allergic to start again. I am curious what exactly she is referring to

It says in the article that she's unfamiliar with the books, so probably from the TV version.

[JaimAybara]

17 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Gender equality yes of course

 

Where does the series explore sexual identity and race? 

 

Is this new information? 

 

This is not an invitation for the woke-allergic to start again. I am curious what exactly she is referring to

Race is super easy to explain. There are tons of nations, cultures, and characters that are interpreted as all sorts of different races etc.  

 

Sexual orientation is also explored extensively but also very subtly until later in the series. Pillow friends. One of the Asha’man later in the series. 
 

Gender identity is briefly explored but they will likely switch it so it is seen as a character with agency and not as a punishment from the dark one/have them all be evil, but it was present. That being said, being trapped in the wrong body is representative of what some people experience.
 

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by JaimAybara

[JaimAybara]

1 minute ago, JaimAybara said:

Ugh sorry meant to edit* not repost.

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by JaimAybara

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

How much does it change the story to have Egwene think that they might be the DR??? 

 

I actually find that very interesting. I don't believe Nynaeve will think she could be - I still don't think she will be presented as a candidate at all. (Besides the four/five contradiction, and the age problem, it is clear from the teaser (horse riding scene) and the trailer (Moiraine talking to the four in the ruined village) that she joins them later.) It is hard enough for her to accept she could be a filthy Channeller. 

 

Egwene I think might affect her development somewhat, and change our understanding of her constant ambition and desperation to learn. It would be interesting to see how differently she and Rand respond to this, probably based around the saidar saidin split. 

 

However, I still think the possibility won't last long in the series, definitely not past the end of series 1. 

 

They have emphasised the break OR save aspect to the prophecies, as if it is one or the other not both, which makes me think they will develop Egwene as the Dragon's counterbalance, as she sort of is in AMOL

 

[Ralph]

4 hours ago, Reader said:

It says in the article that she's unfamiliar with the books, so probably from the TV version.

That she was unfamiliar before she got the role. We know she's almost finished reading them now, although only once. ? /s

Edited November 7, 2021 by Ralph

[Ralph]

5 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

 

Gender identity is briefly explored but they will likely switch it so it is seen as a character with agency and not as a punishment from the dark one, but it was present. That being said, being trapped in the wrong body is representative of what some people experience.
 

 

 

Actually I found it interesting that she didn't mention gender identity separately. Unless you think she'd meant that as well by sexual identity. 

[Ralph]

12 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

Race is super easy to explain. There are tons of nations, cultures, and characters that are interpreted as all sorts of different races etc.  

 

 

 

I assumed she meant racial discrimination. Though I suppose there is that also between the different nations. It would be interesting if they present it that way - that racism in Randland is based on differences in culture rather than colour

Edited November 7, 2021 by Ralph

[JaimAybara]

Just now, Ralph said:

 

I assumed she meant racial discrimination. Though I suppose there is that also

Ohhh I see. Yeah, I agree it’s probably mainly the Aiel then for racial discrimination. 
 

As for gender identity, sexual orientation, etc. I think all of those are possibles in the show. Not sure to how. Egwene I only see being represented as gay if they do decide to go that route. I could be wrong though. Will have to wait and see. 

[Agitel]

3 hours ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

Feasibility of translating and budgetary reasons aren't being discussed here so far by me... My reply is specifically concerning making changes only for commercial success and not having the integrity to follow through with the impact of those changes on the world.  I think it's uncommon for a good show to do that, and I'm at least hoping still for a good show.

 

Let's see how they handle the historical lore with the change. We might see references, but shows rarely provide the same level of details as books. We'll see references and enough to make it feel like a lived in world.

 

I'm not calling it hollow, but it's a writing trick. Make some believable sounding events with enough hints about it and it sucks the reader in.

[Katherine]

15 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

I’m a bit late but I’m intrigued on how this is going to play out. Also, just trying to figure out how things will work if they make massive changes. I like understanding things, so if they just never say that will be a bummer. (That’s what I would consider watered down) just refusing to go into it at all or very minimally. 

 

That being said, Callandor can only be used by a male channeler, it has been waiting for the Dragon Reborn to fulfill the prophesy by taking the Stone. Female channelers cannot use it so they can’t fulfill the prophesy. Okay. So the writers make it so they can and change the prophesy or they channel Saidin in a female body? If so, it would make sense they get gentled/stilled too still experiencing the taint. Now we also open up a bunch of questions as to why the tower never got its hands on it before. Why would they leave a female Sa’angreal that could be used by anyone in the hands of someone else? Aren’t they super touchy about that stuff? Why would they leave it? Simply to maintain a prophesy? And through non-channelers that don’t like them?…

 

There are far fewer male channelers or they are mostly in hiding/going crazy/getting magic neutered and dying. There doesn’t seem to be any reason why a female dragon would hide to me…so that is kind of strange to me as a concept. So when it is actually a man it becomes more significant when one of them to try and take the sword.
 

Women although also dwindling significantly outnumber the men who have largely been culled. Also, the Choedan Kal has two, a male and a female. Are we de-gendering these too? If so, what does that mean for who can use them later? And do we change the scenes in which they are used? Or the people who use them? 

 

If we are removing gender breakdowns entirely, what will their explanation for the corruption be and how it functions? Will men and women be able to teach each other how to use the one power? That was one of the other subplots that was interesting. Figuring out how men can teach themselves or learn how to use it in general. How does linking change? Would they need a man to make larger circles at all? Would women be capped anymore? Will men be able to see women channel? And women men? what would that do to the ability of each of them to largely hide it from each other if they wanted to and the politics of channeling in each other’s presence. Circles etc. we wouldn’t get those spidey senses from you know who because they wouldn’t be required. Sorry! Lots of questions rattling around. Trying to figure out how the systems will function. 

These are not unimportant  questions. And Robert Jordan’s books gender is binary and therefore magic is binary based on gender. It seems like the show wants to embrace the current cultural understanding of gender… But how do you do that and stay true to this magic system? How do you do that and stay true to the nature of the store? These are important questions that need to be addressed. 

[WhiteVeils]

28 minutes ago, Katherine said:

.,,,It seems like the show wants to embrace the current cultural understanding of gender… 

That's the thing. People are assuming that the show embraces a certain view of gender. But I don't think any of us is truly qualified to fully define the current cultural understanding of gender, let alone have any clue whatsoever about how the show will address it.  And when we know exactly how the show addresses the issues of gender, we'll at the same time know how the show addresses magic related to those issues.  We'll get the answer to that question at the same time we /actually/ get the question itself.