IGN Explainer - the Dark One

[Agitel]

16 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Can you post that IGN video where each of the actors talks about their character somewhere??? 

 

I mean, Josha's line, in my book it says, "Hero" ... Oh, my gosh, doesn't your heart flutter with panic ... Who are these writers??? 

 

This is not something I worry about. These are just very, very short snippets/pitches. That type of thing. Overly simplistic is entirely the point. It's the type of thing you try to sell when you have 30 seconds in an elevator. You might be surprised at how badly simplistic many pitches sound. The document Josha is referencing is the same idea. Every character probably has a one word executive pitch label on how they fit in and why they're different from another character. The actual characters are going to be more fleshed out and nuanced.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Agitel

[Skipp]

52 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

I think this is really insightful Rose.

 

But surely even for you (or Sarah - which I think means this divergence is still on topic) ... there's got to be a line (I think I brought this up in a thread months ago)? Right? Where you no longer go: hmm it'll be fun to think about the implications of this. To: what in the bloody, flaming world were they thinking??? 

 

I mean, if they really did make Eg the Dragon (I really don't think they are going to do that - Daniel Henney said "he" and how they reveal the Dragon is cool/creative) would that be too much? Or would you go ...

"Cool. I really didn't see that coming!" 

 

I mean - other changes for me that (might be coming?) - that is close to intolerable even if the show is well done are: having Perrin have a wife he kills (that's been rumored) and having Matt come from poor or crappy parents (that's been rumored). 

 

Because those changes, to me, would signal that they seriously misread and screwed up two of my all time favorite book characters.

 

And again (that would give me 0 - less than 0 - confidence in Sarah as a book consultant) if they changed that and she signed off or defended them (are you kidding me?? Did we read the same books?? Or am I in some kind of Bizzaro world?) 

 

Perrin would be an utterly shattered and useless character if (because of an animal nature within) he accidentally killed the woman he loved. He'd be donezo. And he would definitely, then, never "go wolf". 

 

Making Matt the Rogue character that we love sooner - that's a really good change - Matt was more obnoxious than loveable in EoTW. But making him poor or a thief rather than mischievous, ahhh no. As was mentioned - core to Matt even in his rogueish behavior is that he had great parents and deep down wants to do the right thing (just like all the EF5 characters) but he does it in his own way. They ALL reeally want to choose their own destiny & not be manipulated by anyone. 

 

 

 

The problem with adapting books like WoT to screen is the amount of internal dialogue characters have the the way that is used for character development.

 

Perrin is especially tough in this regards as ALOT of his character development and hangups are done internally.  How do you show this on screen.  While I am not a fan of this story beat it seems the writers have decided to have Perrin Married, I am assuming it is a recent marriage, possibly just on Wintersnight.  So they have Perrin married and then trollocs attack, Perrin picks up a wood axe and defends the two of them.  After the battle is over we see his wife dead, did he fail to protect her? Did he strike her down accidentally?

 

Now what does this provide us?  Well we get his disgust for the Axe, we get his desire to, going forward, to make careful actions after lots of thinking, we get his worry over the wolves and losing control and becoming an animal. He get his reluctance to Faile early on.

 

One story beat, abet an object-able one, gives ways to show Perrin's personality going forward.  Now I am no writer and this was all quickly scribbled down but if I can think of this what can actually story writers do with it?

[Skipp]

And it is the same with Mat, by providing him with more motivation for his actions by ways of a poor family life we have actually have characters development for him in the first 2 seasons.

[Agitel]

30 minutes ago, Skipp said:

And it is the same with Mat, by providing him with more motivation for his actions by ways of a poor family life we have actually have characters development for him in the first 2 seasons.

 

For those who haven't read through the series in awhile, Mat spends most of the first two books being childish and complaining. He's kind of annoying. He gets POVs in the third book and really comes into his own in the fifth book. If he has parent problems, that gives him an additional internal conflict for an early arc (and makes him less of just a tag-along/fifth wheel) while making his issues more sympathetic to the audience (very important that he come across as likable). All of which is probably why they considered such a change.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Agitel

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

Ya'll probably nailed exactly what the writers were thinking (if they made those changes) ...

 

But I still, very much so, dislike it ?

[Agitel]

1 hour ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Ya'll probably nailed exactly what the writers were thinking (if they made those changes) ...

 

But I still, very much so, dislike it ?

 

Well, I'm not jumping for joy over it either. The Cauthons are good folk. I don't like the idea of characters like that being made for the worse. But I understand it from a writing and television perspective, especially when the ensemble takes a larger role early on. And maybe the Cauthons will get some redemption later. Assuming all the rumors are correct in the way we think.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

You know, it occured to me today (I'm sure it occured to y'all a long time ago because you're smarter than me) that probably the majority of people working closely with the show (writers, directors, actors, ect...) have never even read the books once. 

 

I mean how could they have? You need hundreds of people and the people with those skills are, for the most part, not going to be former fans. 

 

Which then made me realize... blood and bloody ashes ... there's no way they're not going to get a bunch of things "wrong" from book readers' perspectives. Right? 

 

For example, Barney could be an amazing actor, but if he's told ... "Ok, you're a rogue, funny guy. Grew up poor. Thinks he's a bad person. Had shitty parents..."

 

He goes, "Ok how do I make that come to life to the best of my ability?" 

 

But if he actually had read the books, he'd go ... "Wait a second. That's not the Matt from the books hardly at all. Is that ok? I think we should do this..." 

 

Now imagine the same scenario. But with writers. 

 

Oh my. 

 

I know I'm slow...that I just realized this today... The "oh, sweet Bela" I bet some of the WRITERS have never even read the books. 

 

And that thought gives me a lot more grace for Sarah. Can you imagine the number of times she probably slapped her palm to her forehead and said, "Have you completely lost your mind?!" ... "Shut. Shut your Darkfriend mouth." 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[TheMountain]

I'm starting to take the increasingly cynical view that the main reason she was hired was to lend an air of legitimacy to the production, not because she was going to have any significant say...

 

She seemed to hint on her Twitter that there are changes that she didn't agree with, but that she came to accept.

Edited November 6, 2021 by TheMountain

[Agitel]

54 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

You know, it occured to me today (I'm sure it occured to y'all a long time ago because you're smarter than me) that probably the majority of people working closely with the show (writers, directors, actors, ect...) have never even read the books once. 

 

Probably the case for many of them, at least before the series started, and I'm sure none of the staff is under obligation to read it. The vision and interpretation is really all on Rafe. Obviously the directors, too, but Rafe is the one who'd ultimately set the parameters and limits.

 

I'm not cynical about Sarah's role, I think the crew values it, but it's not like I think she has veto power and is running the show herself. She provides the research, and probably is the go-to for discussing the ramifications of all the writer's ideas and choices so they can think ahead on the impact and determine what (they believe) is acceptable and unacceptable.

 

She's there to make the case and inform.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Agitel

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

You know, it occured to me today (I'm sure it occured to y'all a long time ago because you're smarter than me) that probably the majority of people working closely with the show (writers, directors, actors, ect...) have never even read the books once. 

 

Sorry, not sorry. I'm not going to respond anything else to that.

[Rose]

4 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

I think this is really insightful Rose.

 

But surely even for you (or Sarah - which I think means this divergence is still on topic) ... there's got to be a line (I think I brought this up in a thread months ago)? Right? Where you no longer go: hmm it'll be fun to think about the implications of this. To: what in the bloody, flaming world were they thinking??? 

 

I mean, if they really did make Eg the Dragon (I really don't think they are going to do that - Daniel Henney said "he" and how they reveal the Dragon is cool/creative) would that be too much? Or would you go ...

"Cool. I really didn't see that coming!" 

 

I mean, there are already things I'm skeptical about, things I think they didn't need to change but they did anyway, and things they've done that I really wish they hadn't.

 

But then again, I could say the same of the books. There are things in the series that I don't like, things I don't think make sense, things I believe RJ would have done differently if he'd started writing the series at a different point in time. No piece of media is perfect, and that's okay.

 

I still love the books, though. And I'm hoping I'll love the show too, though of course I won't know that until I actually watch it. But in order to enjoy it, I need to see it as its own separate thing, and consider it on its own merits, so that's what I'm trying to do.

 

Also I just really love working through potential plot and character arcs, and I can't do that if I already know what's happening, so I guess I'm biased lol.

 

To answer your hypothetical: if they made Egwene the Dragon (which, they won't, but let's assume)? I'd probably think, "Okay, wow, this is a completely different story, then. Nothing will happen like in the books." And adjust my expectations accordingly. I'd still watch the show to see what they do with it, but I'd do it knowing not to expect it to be the same story I read and loved at all. And who knows, maybe I'd enjoy that story too. But as a different story that just happens to be set in the same world.

[king of nowhere]

there are many things I'm skeptical about, and that's inevitable. in an adaptation that big they are inevitably going to screw up something; the law of large numbers alone dictates that.

all the material released in the last weeks give me confidence, though, that for every thing they screw up they've done a lot more right.

it's just a matter of how much you let yourself enjoy the show despite a few flaws.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

^ You're probably right. 

If I really want to enjoy the show - I just need to focus on the good. Stay in the light. Stop channeling Saidin & not go insane focusing on what's all wrong. 

 

To those ends...

I'm very pleased with the actors themselves. The Trollocs. The sets are gorgeous. The costumes are cool... I think it's got great potential to be a cool show.

[Ryan al'Thor]

10 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

^ You're probably right. 

If I really want to enjoy the show - I just need to focus on the good. Stay in the light. Stop channeling Saidin & not go insane focusing on what's all wrong. 

 

To those ends...

I'm very pleased with the actors themselves. The Trollocs. The sets are gorgeous. The costumes are cool... I think it's got great potential to be a cool show.

I think I’m feeling identically to you about this. Maybe I need to take a break from social media and go take a walk in the sunshine. Something like that ? What’s done is done for this season.

[Ralph]

On 11/5/2021 at 3:33 AM, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

My optimism is rising. Was at an all time low the other day - slightly lifted by a hint here that we might get a Forsaken in S1.

 

This is confirmation for me that they're leaning heavy into the wrong question: WHO is the DR? 

 

But the... Is the Dragon a Savior or Destroyer? is a much better question & I think long-term that's probably the main tension question they'll have to pursue... but that's not aided by the possibility of the Dragon being female (but I don't want to talk about that anymore). 

 

On the other hand, this idea of maybe playing up Egwene & Rand checking & balancing one another ... That could be alright. 

 

 

 

 

 

The new clips clearly have Siuan saying that the prophecies say the Dragon either opposes or joins the Dark One. So it is definitely a question that will be in focus

[Deadsy]

On 11/4/2021 at 7:07 PM, Maximillion said:

Lan refers to the Dragon as 'he'.

Something encouraging.

 

 

The Dragon has been referred to as he in every interview we've seen. He's talking about Lews Therin.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Deadsy

[Deadsy]

On 11/4/2021 at 8:49 PM, Beidomon said:

Re the Dragon, I was a little less enthused. Yes, the Dragon and the other male AS broke the world. And that is very important. And yes, the Dragon Reborn is prophesied to do it again. But that’s all Rafe says. He doesn’t even mention what the Dragon was doing, or that the DR is also prophesied to SAVE the world.

 

 

Rafe is pointing out how this is unique. It's a given there are people/prophecies saying the DR will save the world - we already have lines directly from the show stating that the DR will face the Dark One.

[Deadsy]

On 11/4/2021 at 9:17 PM, Agitel said:

 

I'm someone who was anticipating that they'd be pitching that the Dragon could potentially be reborn as a woman, and I say that to be clear I'm not a blind optimist who ignores the way the winds seem to be blowing. But I am optimistic here that we'll see the lore expanded on, and what we're being told up front is a limited, restricted version of what the show lore is, and we're going to get all these details about why the men did what they did. At the beginning of EotW we are also presented with a mischaracterization of Aes Sedai, the Dragon, etc... Now, the books presented it through the lens of a farm boy, the show apparently through an Aes Sedai who in the books would know a little better, but I think they're trying to capture the same feeling there for the audience. We're given one picture of events which is not entirely correct, and that picture will change as the show goes on. If Rafe isn't expanding on that background lore and not giving anything more than an "opening chapters" picture in his pre-release talks, I am not assuming that's the final picture. I think we'll get the lore at some point.

 

And as I said elsewhere, while in the books Moiraine is certainly more balanced (and I hope we see that in the show once we're past teasers), Moiraine's opening description in the teasers really does fit very well into how many women throughout the book series would talk about men's stubbornness, arrogance, woolheadedness, foolishness, etc...

 

 

Moiraine adapts and changes a lot in the series, especially in how she should deal with Rand. Part of that in the TV show version could be that she starts off fearing him a bit more, maybe even being disappointed at the end of season 1 to find out that he is the DR and not Egwene, who she may have thought would have been much easier to deal with. But then she adapts and in being around Rand learns learns she was wrong about some things.

[Deadsy]

On 11/5/2021 at 1:26 PM, AdamA said:

They're just wrong. They also wouldn't admit the existence of the Black Ajah until the members explicitly outed themselves. The Aes Sedai aren't infallible, though it isn't clear to what extent the show is going to lean into this. Siuan and Moiraine were operating very much outside of official sanction because they realized their organization had some core rot that couldn't be fixed openly and needed to be subverted.

 

It raises the question of how much Moiraine really believes what she is saying in these promo shorts. Did they change her character and make her more naive at first or is this just marketers using the most public-facing Aes Sedai in the main cast as the official spokesperson of the organization to the uninitiated fandom? Will she be saying stuff like this in real episodes and will she mean it?

 

 

My guess is what she does during the season will show she is unique among the Aes Sedai, and it will make up for some of her earlier comments. It's obvious from what we've seen that she gets in trouble with the Aes Sedai at the White Tower, and that it's likely related to Logain.

[Deadsy]

On 11/5/2021 at 8:46 PM, Beidomon said:

Yes. But also, it creates a delicious conflict between Aes Sedai hunting and gentling men even though they KNOW that one of them will be the DR. This all gets watered down significantly if the AS think it is possible for the DR to be a woman. I really can’t believe this is even in dispute. Again, nobody here would even be trying to argue this with a straight face even a few weeks ago. 

 

How does it get watered down? It wouldn't change that in any way whatsoever. They would still hunt and gentle all men because they can go mad.

[Tim]

The odds of any particular male channeller being the DR are very low. The prospect of the DR being male or female probably halves those odds, but since they were so small to begin with that doesn’t count for much.

[Deadsy]

41 minutes ago, Tim said:

The odds of any particular male channeller being the DR are very low. The prospect of the DR being male or female probably halves those odds, but since they were so small to begin with that doesn’t count for much.

 

 

Ya, not sure where people are getting the idea the Red Ajah hunting male channelers had anything to do with the Dragon Reborn. If that was anyone's obsession it was the Black Ajah's, but the Reds were already hunting and gentling any male channelers. They were just following Tower law with how they did it.

On a somewhat related note (on the topic of a female being possible), the Aes Sedai also try to find female channelers. If a female could be the DR, this would not change. Any female false dragon would be subdued by the Amyrlin and her loyalists for challenging her authority.

[Jackdaw_Fool]

16 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

Any female false dragon would be subdued by the Amyrlin and her loyalists for challenging her authority

I think that's misses the point for the reasons I've talked about previously... If you are only considering female wilders - a female Logain for example? If so I mostly agree, but you need to consider the probable preference of the world for a female dragon versus a male (takes a special kind of person to say become a follower of Logain or Taim when a male channeler is going to go mad, versus a larger pool of people who might have a preference for backing a female dragon).

 

But more importantly, just like with males, many/most female false dragons wouldn't even be able to channel (rulers, aspiring rulers, the power hungry... Think of people with attitudes like Sevanna for a most egregious personality example).

 

And what about when the false dragons are from within the Aes Sedai themselves? Yes, I'm sure the Amyrlin and her supporters would want to subdue them. But consider all those years of politicking within the tower, sisters vying for power and control... (How many chapters were basically devoted to this in the limited timeframe covered by the books? Extend the potential to all the years since the breaking.) As it was in the male dragon only novels, Siuan was successfully deposed as well as others. Besides, it's easy to imagine even an Amyrlin or two or three would have been anointed the chosen one. It all makes things very ripe for the sowing of division and I would expect the black ajah to make quick work of things...

 

Sure, I think you could hand wave away all of these things and simply say, well these things don't have to be included in the story. However in my opinion that would be very poor plotting. Just like if RJ had simply left out false male dragons or reduced their effect on the world of the books, I'd think less of the novels.

[Deadsy]

7 minutes ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

I think that's misses the point for the reasons I've talked about previously... If you are only considering female wilders - a female Logain for example? If so I mostly agree, but you need to consider the probable preference of the world for a female dragon versus a male (takes a special kind of person to say become a follower of Logain or Taim when a male channeler is going to go mad, versus a larger pool of people who might have a preference for backing a female dragon).

 

But more importantly, just like with males, many/most female false dragons wouldn't even be able to channel (rulers, aspiring rulers, the power hungry... Think of people with attitudes like Sevanna for a most egregious personality example).

 

And what about when the false dragons are from within the Aes Sedai themselves? Yes, I'm sure the Amyrlin and her supporters would want to subdue them. But consider all those years of politicking within the tower, sisters vying for power and control... (How many chapters were basically devoted to this in the limited timeframe covered by the books? Extend the potential to all the years since the breaking.) As it was in the male dragon only novels, Siuan was successfully deposed as well as others. Besides, it's easy to imagine even an Amyrlin or two or three would have been anointed the chosen one. It all makes things very ripe for the sowing of division and I would expect the black ajah to make quick work of things...

 

Sure, I think you could hand wave away all of these things and simply say, well these things don't have to be included in the story. However in my opinion that would be very poor plotting. Just like if RJ had simply left out false male dragons or reduced their effect on the world of the books, I'd think less of the novels.

 

They likely will talk about the preference for it being a female. I'm not sure why that would make much of a difference in the world. People are scared of male channelers and the DR in the books. They would be more scared of a male DR than a female DR with this change. Either way, they are scared of male channelers. I've mentioned Moiraine will probably hope it's Egwene so she doesn't have to deal with the DR going mad. It'll be a very minor plot point. That hope doesn't really matter much. She gave special attention to Egwene anyway because she could channel, and it will be over by the end of season 1.

I don't think the implications on the story are big enough for the changes to the world to even be worth mentioning. Very few non book readers will wonder what the White Tower does with a female false dragon. With us, I think it can be argued that they are all quelled immediately due to the prophecies saying they'll destroy the world. Also, the fear from the Aes Sedai could be that if the DR is female, she'll do the same thing as Lews Therin and get saidar tainted too. They would maybe even still any woman who made the claim.

Not much at all changes with this that's actually worth mentioning in a TV show. In the book there are details that would have been quite a bit different, but with a TV show these are the types of things that don't generally make the cut. We will have that people fear male channelers and because of that hope the DR is female, or they fear both because the prophecies say they could join the Dark One. It will not be a big deal and it will be forgotten after season 1.

[Jackdaw_Fool]

2 hours ago, Deadsy said:

How does it get watered down? It wouldn't change that in any way whatsoever. They would still hunt and gentle all men because they can go mad.

I imagine what Beidomon means by watered down is: The Aes Sedai in the books are gentling men knowing  that if the dragon reborn were to ever show up he will be a male who can channel. Seems... like a bad plan. But if the dragon reborn can be female, well hey, that whole complication is lessened, motivations can be more easily explained. After all, it's ok to gentle all the males because the dragon reborn is probably a female anyway.