IGN Explainer - the Dark One

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

I like the checking and balancing idea too.  It aligns with my sense of what RJ was trying to do.

 

Balancing in general yes but concerning Rand and Egwene I don't really agree. That didn't become the case somewhat until the last 2 books. For the rest of them there's no real basis for that I think.

 

EDIT: that being said Egwene does have a habit of comparing herself or her situation to Rand. So there's that.

Edited November 5, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, Wassup said:

This makes me wonder, if the Aes Sedai are blaming men for all that happened, how do the female forsaken fit into it?  Surely they have some culpability in what transpired before and leading up to the breaking. It was not all just the men. 

 

Sure. But I also don't expect the "present day" Aes Sedai to be all that nuanced about it. There was a well known rift between the male and female Aes Sedai as to LT's plan, LT's plan sorta worked but also unleashed the Breaking, and that's "the arrogance" to which Mo (or maybe I should start saying Mwa) is referring.

[AdamA]

2 hours ago, Wassup said:

This makes me wonder, if the Aes Sedai are blaming men for all that happened, how do the female forsaken fit into it?  Surely they have some culpability in what transpired before and leading up to the breaking. It was not all just the men. 

They're just wrong. They also wouldn't admit the existence of the Black Ajah until the members explicitly outed themselves. The Aes Sedai aren't infallible, though it isn't clear to what extent the show is going to lean into this. Siuan and Moiraine were operating very much outside of official sanction because they realized their organization had some core rot that couldn't be fixed openly and needed to be subverted.

 

It raises the question of how much Moiraine really believes what she is saying in these promo shorts. Did they change her character and make her more naive at first or is this just marketers using the most public-facing Aes Sedai in the main cast as the official spokesperson of the organization to the uninitiated fandom? Will she be saying stuff like this in real episodes and will she mean it?

Edited November 5, 2021 by AdamA

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think the show is 100% going to explore this. I'm just not quite sure how. Starting to wonder whether we are going to get a bunch of Age of Legends flashbacks as a vehicle to get to know the Forsaken better.

 

I would love me some more AOL flashbacks. That's a big reason why TSR may be the single best book in the whole series. I'm all in favor of enhancing the story - give us more Logain and Forsaken backstory - just don't change the main story (the Dragon doesn't have to be a man, Eg will be the "anti-Dragon," etc.).

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Beidomon said:

just don't change the main story (the Dragon doesn't have to be a man, Eg will be the "anti-Dragon," etc.)

With great trepidation, I will once again pry the top off of this can of worms...

If you change Gitara Moroso's Foretelling and other prophecies to remove gender references, but make no other changes, would that bother you?

 

And just to be clear, my suggestion of an 'anti-Dragon' was definitely not to create such a thing in the lore. Rather, it was a line of potential speculation to be drawn by non- book readers when Rand reaches his worst point.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

49 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

With great trepidation, I will once again pry the top off of this can of worms...

If you change Gitara Moroso's Foretelling and other prophecies to remove gender references, but make no other changes, would that bother you?

 

I think the problem for all of us, that (I'm trying to give a little grace to Rafe and his team here) the showrunner and writers have probably already with many tears wrestled through is: you cant change just one thing without having huge repercussions. 

 

In other words, I don't think the scenario you give there is a possible one. 

 

Which means... If you do change something, you had better have reeeally good reasons to do so and have thought through at least some of the major ripples of the change...

 

Hopefully (again I'm really trying to extend grace here) Rafe and the writers have good reasons for changing it so the Dragon might be female. We'll see. 

 

[I suspect that it's just to lean into the Who is the Dragon question - which I don't think is a good reason but that ship has sailed]

 

Because, even if the only change was making the prophecies gender neutral ... That now, at the very least, also has to change how people in the WoT world think about the Dragon. [As evidenced a little by Moiraine herself saying - one of the five of you] 

 

Right? The old can of worms is: have they thought through how this "little change" effects the prophecies, effects WT dynamics, effects people's hopes/fears, effects a gendered OP, effects Rand/Egwene's experience and relationship, effects the power dynamics of the world, ect...

 

Right? 

 

With the three major, major changes we know of for sure [no Trakands and Caemlyn in S1, more Logain in S1, and a possible female dragon]

We already know it's gonna be pretty different.

 

Some of that can be really good... I like the idea of getting more Logain. I think it makes a lot of sense to not get Caemlyn until S2. 

 

But with that other major change: we know for sure that, IF they're going to have prophecies about the Dragon at all - it's going to have to be gender neutral now or they look like morons. 

 

If we're going to get Callandor - how are they going to fix that to be gender neutral? 

 

If we get Lewis Therin at all - it'll have to be that he can be reborn female (does he then have gender dysphoria or what?) 

 

Moiraine pretty much ignored/brushed off Nynaeve in the books at first - can't do that anymore - she's the most likely (most powerful, stubborn, leader-type) Dragon candidate of the EF5 initially.  

 

And has anybody addressed that in one promo video Moiraine said, "One of you four." And in the latest video, "One of you five." Does she say both these lines in the actual show??? Was it changed? 

 

I dunno man, but in summary...

 

I hope we do get a gender neutral prophecy because if we don't that either means we won't really get prophecy or ... The writers changed stuff and didn't think through.

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

With great trepidation, I will once again pry the top off of this can of worms...

If you change Gitara Moroso's Foretelling and other prophecies to remove gender references, but make no other changes, would that bother you?

 

YES. That would bother me very much. If you open up the possibility that the Dragon can be reborn as a woman, that changes A LOT. It makes the Reds' raison d'etre of gentling men who can channel less risky and more mundane. It changes from it being a certainty that the Dragon Reborn will have to channel tainted to Saidin to merely a possibility. It neuters the Dark One's triumphant "I Win Again" of tainting Saidin as a final parting shot. LT to DO: nah that's cool, I'll just channel Saidar next time.

 

In summary, if the DR can return as a Saidar-wielding woman, that completely annihilates one of the single most central and interesting conflicts of WOT. And respectfully, this is foundational stuff that I think the entire WOT community would have agreed upon... back before we started trying to make excuses for WOTTV's changes.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Beidomon

[Agitel]

8 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

YES. That would bother me very much. If you open up the possibility that the Dragon can be reborn as a woman, that changes A LOT. It makes the Reds' raison d'etre of gentling men who can channel less risky and more mundane. It changes from it being a certainty that the Dragon Reborn will have to channel tainted to Saidin to merely a possibility. It neuters the Dark One's triumphant "I Win Again" of tainting Saidin as a final parting shot. LT to DO: nah that's cool, I'll just channel Saidar next time.

 

In summary, if the DR can return as a Saidar-wielding woman, that completely annihilates one of the single most central and interesting conflicts of WOT. And respectfully, this is foundational stuff that I think the entire WOT community would have agreed upon before we started trying to make excuses for WOTTV.

 

Let me be clear that it does irk me a little that they changed the lore to allow the possibility that the DR could be reborn as a woman. I feel like I understand why, but I like my book-lore as it is. However, I don't think the specific things you mentioned are as neutered as you say. The Reds don't exist to catch the DR, they exist to gentle men who go mad and to prevent another breaking. Whether or not LT can be reborn as a woman doesn't change that mission or its relevance at all, and if the DR is reborn as a man they would still have the same bias they do in the books. It doesn't necessarily neuter the DO's triumphant "I win again". He still managed to drive LT mad, break the world, tear down what human civilization built up, and is still able to touch the world and work his way through the imperfect seals. And it's not like LT would have a choice as to how he'd be born.

[Elder_Haman]

27 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

If you open up the possibility that the Dragon can be reborn as a woman, that changes A LOT.

Let me be clear. I’m not suggesting that the lore be changed to allow for a female Dragon. I’m suggesting the prophecies be changed so that a female Dragon is not linguistically impossible. 
 

The Dragon must still be male. But the prophecies simply don’t speak to gender. 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

9 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The Dragon must still be male. But the prophecies simply don’t speak to gender. 

 

Would still annoy me a little - but definitely not as much as major changes that I see no good reason for. 

[DaddyFinn]

 

 

 

 

Well said, Sarah.

 

If someone doesn't know her, she is a show consultant who has read the books around 30 times and helps Rafe&Co with a lot of stuff. She gives a thicc stack of paper for every location etc. that contain descriptions etc. from books.

Edited November 5, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[Skipp]

8 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

 

 

 

Well said, Sarah.

 

If someone doesn't know her, she is a show consultant who has read the books around 30 times and helps Rafe&Co with a lot of stuff. She gives a thicc stack of paper for every location etc. that contain descriptions etc. from books.

Thanks for posting this.  Only saw it myself a few minutes ago.  I am so very happy that have Sarah on the team that is making this.  Her love for the series cannot be understated. 

[themann1086]

54 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The Dragon must still be male. But the prophecies simply don’t speak to gender.

I've been thinking about all this for a few days, and I'm starting to wonder if the situation is that the Prophecies don't include gendered language, and the Aes Sedai started to delude themselves that hey, maybe the Dragon Reborn won't be a boy doomed to go mad and destroy everything, again. Maybe it'll be a woman, one of us, and together we can fix what men destroyed. A combination of arrogance and wishful thinking that, technically, fits the wording of the Prophecies, but is really just lying to yourself. They don't want the Dragon Reborn to be a man, so they're going to look at all the evidence through that lens until long after it becomes impossible to deny reality.

 

Because the Dragon Reborn does have to be a man. Not for reasons like "sticking closely to the source material" or "deep lore about how souls are always born the same sex", but an even better reason: Narrative power. A male Dragon, in his arrogance, broke the world and doomed all male channelers to decay and madness for thousands of years. So when the Dragon is Reborn, why should he get to avoid all the suffering that he caused in his past life? No: to fix what he broke, he must face the same trials and fates that his past actions caused countless others to go through. The Narrative demands it.

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, themann1086 said:

I've been thinking about all this for a few days, and I'm starting to wonder if the situation is that the Prophecies don't include gendered language, and the Aes Sedai started to delude themselves that hey, maybe the Dragon Reborn won't be a boy doomed to go mad and destroy everything, again. Maybe it'll be a woman, one of us, and together we can fix what men destroyed. A combination of arrogance and wishful thinking that, technically, fits the wording of the Prophecies, but is really just lying to yourself. They don't want the Dragon Reborn to be a man, so they're going to look at all the evidence through that lens until long after it becomes impossible to deny reality.

 

Because the Dragon Reborn does have to be a man. Not for reasons like "sticking closely to the source material" or "deep lore about how souls are always born the same sex", but an even better reason: Narrative power. A male Dragon, in his arrogance, broke the world and doomed all male channelers to decay and madness for thousands of years. So when the Dragon is Reborn, why should he get to avoid all the suffering that he caused in his past life? No: to fix what he broke, he must face the same trials and fates that his past actions caused countless others to go through. The Narrative demands it.

Exactly this.

[Rose]

6 hours ago, AdamA said:

It raises the question of how much Moiraine really believes what she is saying in these promo shorts. Did they change her character and make her more naive at first or is this just marketers using the most public-facing Aes Sedai in the main cast as the official spokesperson of the organization to the uninitiated fandom? Will she be saying stuff like this in real episodes and will she mean it?

 

I was thinking something along these lines. They wanted to convey the Aes Sedai viewpoint and since Moiraine is the focal character of all the promo (and the show as presented so far), they had her say it, even if it's not the most in-character thing for her to say. New viewers wouldn't know yet that it's not in-character anyway, and there's plenty of time to add nuance as the show unfolds. This being the first minute of the show, they need to set the scene and convey some basic information in the simplest way possible, that they can then expand on, challenge and subvert later on.

 

That being said, it's also not untrue that LTT was arrogant (he admits to it himself). So it's not inconceivable that Moiraine genuinely thinks it. She probably also thinks a lot of other things that would add nuance to the issue, but they're just not having her say it all yet.

[Rose]

4 hours ago, themann1086 said:

I've been thinking about all this for a few days, and I'm starting to wonder if the situation is that the Prophecies don't include gendered language, and the Aes Sedai started to delude themselves that hey, maybe the Dragon Reborn won't be a boy doomed to go mad and destroy everything, again. Maybe it'll be a woman, one of us, and together we can fix what men destroyed. A combination of arrogance and wishful thinking that, technically, fits the wording of the Prophecies, but is really just lying to yourself. They don't want the Dragon Reborn to be a man, so they're going to look at all the evidence through that lens until long after it becomes impossible to deny reality.

 

This makes sense to me.

 

It's also possible that the majority of the world believes the Dragon will be male (because why wouldn't he be? He was male last time) but Moiraine and Siuan, having spent the past 20 years poring over the prophecies and chasing every possible lead, don't want to leave any possibility unexplored, no matter how unlikely, so they're considering that the dragon might be reborn as a girl.

 

Because really, how do they know that souls are gendered and retain their gender? It's not exactly something you can verify. So I could see M & S deciding it's within the realm of possibility that souls aren't in fact tied to gender, and choosing to cover all their bases just in case.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Rose

[Beidomon]

5 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Let me be clear. I’m not suggesting that the lore be changed to allow for a female Dragon. I’m suggesting the prophecies be changed so that a female Dragon is not linguistically impossible. 
 

The Dragon must still be male. But the prophecies simply don’t speak to gender. 

Yes, that would still be a problem. Because for the reasons I explained above, the fact that Aes Sedai KNOW in the books that the DR needs to be male is what set up one of the most interesting conflicts. 

[Beidomon]

4 hours ago, themann1086 said:

Because the Dragon Reborn does have to be a man. Not for reasons like "sticking closely to the source material" or "deep lore about how souls are always born the same sex", but an even better reason: Narrative power. A male Dragon, in his arrogance, broke the world and doomed all male channelers to decay and madness for thousands of years. So when the Dragon is Reborn, why should he get to avoid all the suffering that he caused in his past life? No: to fix what he broke, he must face the same trials and fates that his past actions caused countless others to go through. The Narrative demands it.

Yes. But also, it creates a delicious conflict between Aes Sedai hunting and gentling men even though they KNOW that one of them will be the DR. This all gets watered down significantly if the AS think it is possible for the DR to be a woman. I really can’t believe this is even in dispute. Again, nobody here would even be trying to argue this with a straight face even a few weeks ago. 

[Rose]

5 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Yes. But also, it creates a delicious conflict between Aes Sedai hunting and gentling men even though they KNOW that one of them will be the DR. This all gets watered down significantly if the AS think it is possible for the DR to be a woman. I really can’t believe this is even in dispute. Again, nobody here would even be trying to argue this with a straight face even a few weeks ago. 

 

Yeah I don't think anyone's denying it's a change with several repercussions. It does change things. Whether or not we think it was a good call on the show's part is a separate question which I think we've already discussed to death. It's still interesting to think about how it might work in practice.

[MasterAblar]

We'll be able to conclude whether the change was worth it or not once the show comes out. Until then I think as Rose says its been talked about to death with the foreseable repercussions lore wise fairly clear. How it impacts the storyline is another matter and could be interesting.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

Sarah's tweets don't make me feel better ... So they discussed at length with full knowledge of the reprocussions what the possibility of a female dragon would do ... Dug into the lore & background & everything we've discussed ad nauseum ... and then decided, "Yup. It's worth it." ??? 

 

[Even though their going to keep the books DR & reveal HIM in S1]?? 

 

Soooo... what's "the line" for Sarah? Where she says, "No. This is no longer the WoT I love. I'm done." 

 

Makes me feel a whole lot worse...

 

Because my line would be (and this would be true of ANY show) ... if they're going to shove a certain agenda in my face even if it in no way benefits the story [and that's a two way street - I stopped reading the Sword of Truth series once it got super preachy. And watched three episodes of the Seeker before I abandoned that.] 

 

Now, I'm not saying that they're doing that. Hear me say that, please. 

We will see soon. We got to actually see these three episodes. 

 

But after that, I'll be really curious to see if it ends up being the case that a bunch of ppl on DM - just have a really high tolerance for any changes...

 

[Youss99]

I'm not exactly new.  My old account used some long forgotten email so this one has taken its place.

 

As many others have noted as well, I have great concerns and honestly doubt this is going to be anything other than a disappointment.  However, my hope is that it turns out to be something far greater than I ever imagined.

 

But the comments by Sarah add to my concern.  She seems to say there are going to be changes that you (plural and singular) won't like.  There will be many.  And we actually discussed them all and still did it even when it didn't really fit. 

 

This is the worst part of it to me.  It can't be easy to sift through these novels and try to bring all that to the screen.  There would always be some things cut and some things kept we as fans will disagree with.  But the story itself is ALREADY written and didn't need to be fine tuned.  The core lore of this world didn't need to be adapted for a new kind of understanding because RAFE thought a woman should maybe be the dragon instead.

 

There isn't anything wrong with a story that flips the entire script.  A world where women broke the world and men held it together.  But that isn't THIS story.  I want OUR Wheel of Time.  The story was already there, it didn't need to be changed.  Cleaned up for tv, of course.  But not changed because Rafe wanted an even more modernized inclusive female focused Wheel of Time because he decided RJ didn't to it good enough.

 

There is enough in the material released to offer some hope that this could turn out great.  There is MORE than enough to give concern that this is going to end badly.  I will wish for the former rather than the latter! 

 

We give far too much latitude to writers and directors who ruin the stories we love because they aren't good enough to write their own.

 

 

[Youss99]

2 hours ago, Rose said:

 

 

 

Because really, how do they know that souls are gendered and retain their gender? It's not exactly something you can verify. So I could see M & S deciding it's within the realm of possibility that souls aren't in fact tied to gender, and choosing to cover all their bases just in case.

 Well we do know it.  Since the heroes of the Horn came back and are always the same gender.  Birgette tells her story that she is always spun out after Gaidal Cain and marries him (or they get together, etc). 

[TheMountain]

Yeah, I'm less concerned about whether the changes were well-thought-out and more about whether it will still be the Wheel of Time.

[Elder_Haman]

8 hours ago, Beidomon said:

It makes the Reds' raison d'etre of gentling men who can channel less risky and more mundane. It changes from it being a certainty that the Dragon Reborn will have to channel tainted to Saidin to merely a possibility. It neuters the Dark One's triumphant "I Win Again" of tainting Saidin as a final parting shot. LT to DO: nah that's cool, I'll just channel Saidar next time.

But changing the prophecy to remove the gender does none of these things.

• Gentling men isn't less risky or more mundane. They are still powerful, destructive and insane. And one of them could still be the DR. In fact, one of them is most likely to be the DR.
• It doesn't change the fact that the DR is in fact a male and will have to channel tainted saidin. 
• It literally does nothing to the Dark One's parting shot, because it doesn't change the fact that the Dragon must be a man.

2 hours ago, Beidomon said:

the fact that Aes Sedai KNOW in the books that the DR needs to be male is what set up one of the most interesting conflicts. 

I guess we each find different things interesting. To me it changes virtually nothing if the Aes Sedai aren't entirely sure who the Dragon is going to be. So long as the Dragon cannot in fact be a woman, the state of Aes Sedai knowledge about who the Dragon may or may not be makes little, if any, difference to the characters, the plot, the magic system, or anything else that matters.