New clip about the Aes Sedai

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I mean, there's precedent for this in the WoT universe... which only makes it more likely that someone read the stuff with Balal as a woman and thought, "Heeeeeeeyyyy you know what would really subvert expectations?" (Rian Johnson? What are you doing in here?) and then no one had the guts to tell them it was a terrible idea because they didn't want to get called names/fired. 

Actually, if we get a Balthamel/Aran'gar at all, it's far more likely they'll scrap male Balthamel for a female version to avoid trying to associate transgender with Aran'Gar.

[MasterAblar]

Pretty sure they're just gonna scrap Aran'gar and Osan'gar anyway. They mattered very little overall in the books. In a series with far greater constraints in terms of what they can show I doubt they'll bother with them.

[Rose]

So, confirmation that Moiraine doesn't know the DR is male. Lore-wise, there are two possibilities:

- Souls are genderless. Each person can have different genders in different lives, while retaining the same soul.

- Souls are gendered but Aes Sedai don't know it.

 

Either way, it means people aren't sure the DR will go mad, and I imagine everyone's rooting for the DR to be a woman in the hopes of avoiding the worst case scenario.

 

It's definitely a departure from the books, because different reveals will play out differently, but it could be interesting to see what they do with it. I'm cautiously intrigued.

 

As for the speech about "arrogant men screwed everything up and women were left to clean up after them" it's definitely in line with what people in-world and Aes Sedai specifically think, so it doesn't bother me.

 

I agree though that it doesn't sound like something Moiraine would say. I'm assuming they wanted that speech to introduce us to the in-world dynamics and what people believe, and since Rosamund Pike is their headliner, they had her deliver it even if it doesn't make sense. Not ideal. 

 

(And no, they won't make Egwene the DR. Did you see those posters? They might as well have painted a big flashing neon bull's-eye over Rand)

Edited November 3, 2021 by Rose

[boldnbeautiful]

52 minutes ago, Borderlander said:

I'll say it again: Moiraine thinks the Dragon Reborn could be a girl. 

The fact that Moiraine searched the Dragon for 20 years in the first place because of a Foretelling by Gitara Morosso. Either, the TV show must remove this foretelling or Moiraine somehow missed the "seven" male pronouns... she wasn't listening very well.  ?

 

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!"

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, Rose said:

So, confirmation that Moiraine doesn't know the DR is male. Lore-wise, there are two possibilities:

- Souls are genderless. Each person can have different genders in different lives, while retaining the same soul.

- Souls are gendered but Aes Sedai don't know it.

 

Either way, it means people aren't sure the DR will go mad, and I imagine everyone's rooting for the DR to be a woman in the hopes of avoiding the worst case scenario.

 

It's definitely a departure from the books, because different reveals will play out differently, but it could be interesting to see what they do with it. I'm cautiously intrigued.

 

(And no, they won't make Egwene the DR. Did you see those posters? They might as well have painted a bright flashing neon arrow over Rand)

 

I don't believe the prophesies actually mentioned Saidin at all. I could be wrong and I am away from my books atm.  The prophesies just say the Dragon will go mad and save/destroy the world.  So people would still be worried that the Dragon would destroy them.

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

The fact that Moiraine searched the Dragon for 20 years in the first place because of a Foretelling by Gitara Morosso. Either, the TV show must remove this foretelling or Moiraine somehow missed the "seven" male pronouns... she wasn't listening very well.  ?

 

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!"

 

"The Dragon is born again! I feel them! The Dragon takes their first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! The Dragon is coming! The Dragon is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! They lay in the snow and cry like the thunder! They burn like the sun!"

 

Was that so difficult?

 

And that took me 30 seconds, I imagine a writers room could fix my potential grammar mistakes

Edited November 3, 2021 by Skipp
Additional thought

[TheMountain]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Was that so difficult?

 

Yes.

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

 

Yes.

 

Shame that my late 80's grade school lessons are that troubling for you.

 

[swollymammoth]

10 minutes ago, Skipp said:

"The Dragon is born again! I feel them! The Dragon takes their first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! The Dragon is coming! The Dragon is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! They lay in the snow and cry like the thunder! They burn like the sun!"

This is not based. Not based at all. Big sadge. 

In universe, there would be no reason for the Foretelling to happen this way. If they did it like this, it would be entirely for the sake of the audience. Breaking immersion in order to set up a pointless red herring for the sake of the audience is just bad, so bad. We would not forgive this in anything else, but we're so eager to like this show that we do. 

[Rose]

12 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

I don't believe the prophesies actually mentioned Saidin at all. I could be wrong and I am away from my books atm.  The prophesies just say the Dragon will go mad and save/destroy the world.  So people would still be worried that the Dragon would destroy them.

 

Yeah I agree they can still be worried about the DR destroying the world. But the DR would only go mad if they channel saidin. So they'd probably still rather have a female Dragon. No need to add taint-induced madness on top of the destruction already promised by the prophecies.

 

Alternatively, maybe they interpret the prophecies as the DR will EITHER save the world OR destroy it. (Pretty sure in the books it's both, but they could make it so people in the show think it's either/or). And since they don't know the DR's gender, they can conclude that the DR will save the world if they're female and destroy it if they're male.

 

Either way, I bet everyone's rooting for a female dragon because if there's the option of your savior not coming with a ticking timebomb of madness, I'm pretty sure everyone would prefer that.

[Rand520]

Thanks for rejecting my new posts, admins. Apparently dissenting viewpoints are not allowed.

[Ralph]

We are all going round in circles here. For what it's worth, since the extra information went up on the website I have assumed Moiraine doesn't know whether the Dragon is male or female. However, that just means she doesn't know whether s/he channels saidin or saidar, and therefore how great the risk is to the world. 

 

There is no reason to assume anything more than that, and the reason to change it may well be just to change the silliness of Egwene's reason for joining them. 

 

Re the Dragon being potentially female, I have seen quoted elsewhere that RJ said in some turnings the "saviour" is the soul of Amaresu. See eg http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/02/some-sort-of-balance-is-perfect-wheel.html#pattern

 

The Pattern has three graces, or self-correcting mechanisms, to make sure it does not drift off-course, and remains in balance on the whole: ta’veren, Heroes of the Horn, and finally, the ultimate Hero and ta’veren, the Dragon (in some Ages). There is a female saviour equivalent, Amaresu, who we saw among the Heroes, who is born in other Ages as required (Robert Jordan at booksignings). There may be Ages where no such saviour figure, male or female, is required.

 

If so, the change here is minimal. All it requires is that the soul of the saviour can sometimes be male (saidin) and sometimes female (saidar). What changes the story about that? And conceptually RJ himself said it can be that the saviour is sometimes female, although he saw that as a different soul. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Ralph

[swollymammoth]

38 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

just mind boggling to me.

I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS 

Edited November 3, 2021 by swollymammoth

[Rand520]

Just now, Ralph said:

We are all going round in circles here. For what it's worth, since the extra information on the website I have assumed Moiraine doesn't know whether the Dragon is male or female. However, that just means she doesn't know whether s/he channels saidin or saidar, and therefore how great the risk is to the world. 

 

There is no reason to assume anything more than that, and the reason to change it may well be just to change the silliness of Egwene's reason for joining them. 

 

Re the Dragon being potentially female, I have seen quoted elsewhere that RJ said in some turnings the "saviour" is the soul of Amaresu. See eg http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/02/some-sort-of-balance-is-perfect-wheel.html#pattern

 

The Pattern has three graces, or self-correcting mechanisms, to make sure it does not drift off-course, and remains in balance on the whole: ta’veren, Heroes of the Horn, and finally, the ultimate Hero and ta’veren, the Dragon (in some Ages). There is a female saviour equivalent, Amaresu, who we saw among the Heroes, who is born in other Ages as required (Robert Jordan at booksignings). There may be Ages where no such saviour figure, male or female, is required.

 

If so, the change here is minimal. All it requires is that the should of the saviour can sometimes be male (saidin) and sometimes female (saidar). What changes the story about that? And conceptually RJ himself said it can be. 

Yes, the savior for the age can be either male or female. The dragon is always male. So, if you ditch the idea of the dragon reborn for this age, then yes a female could be the savior.

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, Rand520 said:

Thanks for rejecting my new posts, admins. Apparently dissenting viewpoints are not allowed.

We already have those topics. Get off your high horse.

[TheMountain]

Ameresu, who is for all intents and purposes unknown as a savior figure in the age of the books, would conceivably be reborn when Saidar was tainted, not Saidin.

[Rand520]

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

We already have those topics. Get off your high horse.

I asked a straightforward question in a poll, how would people feel IF they made Eggy the DR. If that already exists, then you have a reason.

[Ralph]

5 minutes ago, Rand520 said:

Yes, the savior for the age can be either male or female. The dragon is always male. So, if you ditch the idea of the dragon reborn for this age, then yes a female could be the savior.

If you change the restriction that a soul has to be same gender, and following this allow the female saviour and male saviour options both to be called Dragon, then you have hardly changed anything at all. 

[SinisterDeath]

7 minutes ago, Rand520 said:

I asked a straightforward question in a poll, how would people feel IF they made Eggy the DR. If that already exists, then you have a reason.

We have a thread talking about it. We don't need another thread with a poll. Get over it.

Also, please review Dragonmounts Code of Conduct, specifically section 6a.
 

 

[Ralph]

I am finding it difficult to understand why this has provoked such a strong reaction. I am by no means woke, and in many circles would probably be considered anti-woke. Despite that nothing I have seen fills me with dread that this will be a sermonising polemic. 

 

Maybe because I live in the UK and things seem to be far less polarised than in the US. 

 

Is it possible there is a little bit of confirmation bias going on, that people who see a gay liberal self-declared feminist showrunner automatically assume that his decisions will follow his dogma which is very different from theirs? Then when minimal changes are seen to have occurred, with fairly clear and understandable reasons, they see this as yet another example of what they were already expecting? 

 

 

 

 

 

[swollymammoth]

6 minutes ago, Ralph said:

If you change the restriction that a soul has to be same gender, and following this allow the female saviour and male saviour options both to be called Dragon, then you have hardly changed anything at all. 

..... 

 

Except, like, the entire story? 

 

Tiny differences matter. Move back the camera far enough, and you could say that Ocean's Eleven and the Italian Job are the same movie. They're both stylish heist remakes with charismatic casts about a group of thieves getting revenge on someone who did them wrong. 

 

But of course, they're not the same movie. And neither are Ocean's Eleven and Ocean's 13 which are even more similar. 

 

Having a female Dragon could be justified by the lore, but at that point, we're not talking about a WoT adaptation anymore. We're talking about a fanfic, a really high budget fanfic. It's crazy to me how people have gone from, "Egwene isn't gonna be TDR" to "It would actually be totally fine if Egwene was TDR." 

[Ralph]

Nobody has said that it is fine if Egwene is the Dragon, only that it is fine if she could have been

[Ralph]

If Egwene is the Dragon I will accept that they appear to have changed the story for purely dogmatic reasons and that this is unacceptable. 

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I am finding it difficult to understand why this has provoked such a strong reaction. I am by no means woke, and in many circles would probably be considered anti-woke. Despite that nothing I have seen fills me with dread that this will be a sermonising polemic. 

Same here. I'll judge the episodes and seasons when we actually see them. I don't see any reason to feast on negativity.

[MasterAblar]

I would actually love if the possibility of the DR being a woman is a complete Aes Sedai creation. It would serve the show their arrogance and mistaken belief in their self importance, without actually sacrificing the lore. Not sure how to bring it to screen properly but it would be an interesting take and in keeping with the typical Aes Sedai mindset regarding the White Tower's role.