New clip about the Aes Sedai

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

- She also talked about the Old Tongue and how it's a gendered language (I was speculating that it might not be, I was wrong) and that it's structured in a way that every sentence has a balance of male and female-gendered words which is super fascinating to me from a linguistics viewpoint (how does that even work? I want to knowwww)

 

 

Interesting as that is, that sounds insanely impractical. Imagine having to balance every sentence you say like that. ?

[Rose]

13 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

What 'understanding' are you seeking?

They departed from the books and made the possibility of a female Dragon part of the lore - which for many ruins the story.

There is not much to understand - they either did it for purely financial reasons to be more 'inclusive' or just purely for modern day progressive cultural reasons, or both.  

 

You believe there's nothing to understand. That's your prerogative. But don't go telling other people they're not allowed to try to understand. How is this hard? Don't tell other people what to do.

[Ralph]

4 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

Nynaeve too?

'1 of 5'.

There was nothing at all wrong with Egwene's reason for wanting to go along with them - apart from one thing.  It doesn't fit with the modern day thinking of the people with their hands on the tiller when it comes to creating many of the shows we see today.

 

 

She went with them to have an adventure and see the world. It is possible RJ saw this as subverting the trope of young men running away for this very reason. 

 

But that means the mature responsible daughter of the innkeeper just abandons her family without even telling them, for this reason only. 

 

And that her response to a fearsome attack by monsters she had thought were only stories is to leave the community and have fun. 

 

What would you think of such a person? Superficial? Selfish? I'm not sure it is even realistic enough to exist at all. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ralph

[Rose]

4 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Interesting as that is, that sounds insanely impractical. Imagine having to balance every sentence you say like that. ?

 

I know right? Which is why I was like "but HOW"

 

No wonder they stopped speaking Old Tongue in Randland ?

[king of nowhere]

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

There was nothing at all wrong with Egwene's reason for wanting to go along with them - apart from one thing.  It doesn't fit with the modern day thinking of the people with their hands on the tiller when it comes to creating many of the shows we see today.

 

oh, please, now you're stretching it. "egwene wants to escape and have a career instead of becoming a housewife" would be exactly the kind of woke plot you'd expect. "egwene escapes because she has a responsibility to the world" would put her in a subaltern position, giving her the weight of supporting other people who often won't thank her, just like a good housewife staying at home.

you are so hard bent in seeing everything in woke light, you can twist anything to that purpose. even the way moiraine is dressed now has some obscure meaning!

Yes, I can agree that the change of the dragon being possibly a woman is a big one, and one I'd have rather not seen, but you are taking things way too far.

[Ralph]

It bothered me when I read the books. Maybe not the first time, when I was a teenager, but definitely on later Rereads. Similarly her excitement and childish glee at going to train as an Aes Sedai, when she had previously been told Aes Sedai were evil monsters is unrealistic. I suspect they will change that to her thinking she may well be the Dragon if she can channel (saidar not saidin before people jump on this). 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ralph

[Maximillion]

Just now, Ralph said:

 

She went with them to have an adventure and see the world. It is possible RJ saw this as subverting the trope of young men running away for this very reason. 

 

But that means the mature responsible daughter of the innkeeper just abandons her reaching without even telling them, for this reason only. 

 

And that her response to a fearsome attack by monsters she had thought were only stories is to leave the community and have fun. 

 

What would you think of such a person? Superficial? Selfish? I'm not sure it is even realistic enough to exist at all. 

 

 

...and here is the definition of the problem with the people who make shows.  They think exactly like this.

I don't like this persons character as it is portrayed so I am going to make them more socially acceptable.

Shall we make the DO a good guy really?  I mean it's not very realistic to even have a DO and especially someone so damn evil.

 

Egwene's character and feeling towards Rand was defined very early with her actions.  Head strong and desperately in love with Rand, not wanting to be away from him no matter the impact on others. Impulsive and lacking critical thinking at the start of her journey.  Her journey is one of the cornerstones of the entire story. 

 

 

[Maximillion]

5 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

oh, please, now you're stretching it. "egwene wants to escape and have a career instead of becoming a housewife" would be exactly the kind of woke plot you'd expect. "egwene escapes because she has a responsibility to the world" would put her in a subaltern position, giving her the weight of supporting other people who often won't thank her, just like a good housewife staying at home.

you are so hard bent in seeing everything in woke light, you can twist anything to that purpose. even the way moiraine is dressed now has some obscure meaning!

Yes, I can agree that the change of the dragon being possibly a woman is a big one, and one I'd have rather not seen, but you are taking things way too far.

 

That has nothing at all to do with Egwene's character in the actual story.

You are making my point - as did Rose.  Modern day requirements are being projected onto the story and thus ruining story arcs - or more accurately completely changing them. 

The latter is fine - their money, their show - but it isn't Robert Jordans story and that is a shame.

We will never see RJs story now.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

 

...and here is the definition of the problem with the people who make shows.  They think exactly like this.

I don't like this persons character as it is portrayed so I am going to make them more socially acceptable.

Shall we make the DO a good guy really?  I mean it's not very realistic to even have a DO and especially someone so damn evil.

 

Egwene's character and feeling towards Rand was defined very early with her actions.  Head strong and desperately in love with Rand, not wanting to be away from him no matter the impact on others. Impulsive and lacking critical thinking at the start of her journey.  Her journey is one of the cornerstones of the entire story. 

 

 

 

Again you are going with "socially acceptable." I think no such immature person exists, nothing to do with acceptability. 

 

Egwene doesn't leave to be with Rand - she leaves to have a fun adventure seeing the world and forgetting about her family

[Ralph]

Yes, immature headstrong and lacking critical thinking, but a thousand times worse than that

[Maximillion]

8 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Again you are going with "socially acceptable." I think no such immature person exists, nothing to do with acceptability. 

 

Egwene doesn't leave to be with Rand - she leaves to have a fun adventure seeing the world and forgetting about her family

 

The DO doesn't exist either.

Trollocs don't exist.

Fade's don't exist.

Aes Sedai dont exist.

 

RJs story was not about our world we live in today.

 

You are projecting.  You don't think any woman could be like that in the world today, therefore a female character in a fantasy series set in a different time (and place?) can't be like it either.

 

I think that is what we are going to get - a projection of modern day political, cultural and ideological doctrine using the world RJ created .  Now is that wrong per se?  Well not really if some people like that - and a lot of people do. So fine.  I find it a real shame and detrimental to the entertainment.  Some will feel the same as I do.  Some won't.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion

[Ralph]

So the characters, their motivations, their development, are not meant to be something that could have an equivalent in our world? 

 

 

[Ralph]

Every emotional reaction in the story is meaningful because we imagine ourselves in those positions. That is the depth of the story. 

 

To have someone reacting in such an unimaginable way does not fit with the story at all. 

 

Yes it is fantasy, but if the humanness was different I don't think anybody would be interested in reading it

[king of nowhere]

11 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Egwene's character and feeling towards Rand was defined very early with her actions.  Head strong and desperately in love with Rand, not wanting to be away from him no matter the impact on others.

 

is that how you read egwene in the first book? strange, really.

I get the impression she never was in love with rand. she just had this expectation she was supposed to marry him, and she went along.

she's always mean to rand, from the very first time we see her on page. she has very few times when she shows genuine affection. the way i read it, at best egwene considers rand a stupid, obnoxious little brother who annoys her.

[Ralph]

The change in Mat's background is probably for a similar reason, although I am less accepting of that because it never bothered me before. (I am not happy they have a female Dragon option, but I believe I understand why they have done it, and am willing to wait to see how it fits together.) 

 

Mat is many people's least favourite character until Rhuidean, not just because of his shallowness, but because there is very little depth to him as a drawn character. 

 

But more fundamentally, we have a basic difference in attitude. You are convinced that any change cannot have any justification, and that the show is ruined by it. I tend to think they must have had in story reasons they think sufficient, and I will find out what those reasons were and how the change affects the story before I come to judgement. 

[DragonFairy]

16 hours ago, Guire said:

So then the world like early Mo may have this incomplete conflicting idea of Dragon. 

 

But she heard the foretelling. Book Moiraine and Siuan( and every other Aes Sedai sent out looking for the DR) knew he was a boy, so now we need to make another change--the foretelling.

 

10 hours ago, Indil said:

They can very well just mention the female counterpart of the Dragon for the sake of woke and feminism, instead of making the Dragon possibly a female. Which leads to all sorts of inconsistency in world building they'll have to fix, and irritating book nerds like me.

 

Well, actually they can't because they wouldn't remember that there is a female savior in some ages. We only know that because RJ said it. So, since they can't credit women with being the savior in other ages, we have to change this one. Never mind how many very powerful, impactful women there are in the story already, without some of whom, Rand would never have accomplished his goal.

 

10 hours ago, Morani said:

But how on earth would people in randland know this for a fact?

 

Dunno. How do they know they are reincarnated or that there is a wheel and a pattern? The catechism has been handed down through the ages. Not everything has been forgotten.

 

9 hours ago, Borderlander said:

I don't believe RJ ever definitively answered the question of exactly how alike are the Ages when they come again. Is every single molecule in the world the same, every name, every spoken word, every blade of grass in every field, every cloud in the sky, every thought in every person's head? My impression was alwasy to the contrary; not everything is the exact, carbon-copy same. Names might changes. Minor 'plot' points might change. The same ta'veren souls might be spun back out, yes, but how they navigate from Point A to Point B might change. 

 

Actually, he did. In TWoRJWoT, says that the Pattern of the Age forms the substance of reality for that age. This design is predetermined by the Wheel and can only partially be changed by those lives which make up the threads within the weave. Which means there is variation each time the same age comes again. Also, With every pass the changes vary to an increasingly greater degree.

 

The most important people of an age, who drive the major events, will always be spun out again, but they won't be exactly the same as they were the last time that age came around.

 

Also, there is Artur Hawkwing's comment to Rand, I think, at Falme, that he has gone by many different names.

 

So I would say your impression is correct.

8 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

They really want to lean into the question: Who is the Dragon? 

I think that's a stupid thing to lean into. Others disagree. But I would argue this isn't a compelling question.

 

I'd rather they lean into: why is the possibility of being the Dragon (a Savior figure) such a fear to the three boys. And how would small town (backwoods, ignorant, set in their ways) people react to being told, "Come on this journey to save the world!"

 

Anyone who has listened to the audio books has likely heard the interview with RJ about how he came to write the books. And he said, he had begun to question how an average person would respond to "You're the savior of the world." So that is indeed the idea he started the series with.

 

8 hours ago, Agitel said:

I think the main motivation for allowing the Dragon Reborn to possibly be reborn as a woman (even if that doesn't happen) is that soul-gender essentialism and the idea that the savior metaphysically has to be a man are not kosher in today's world,

 

So the show panders.

 

8 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Everyone knew from the beginning this is "an adaptation", that they were going to (and had to) cut content, and compress the story for television. This often includes "liberties" of expanding side characters to help fill in the gaps between the main characters storylines that sit around doing nothing for 4 books except mope about trying to find their lost wife.

 Cutting out and compressing, expanding side characters are one thing. None of that is changing basic world lore. Maybe this will be the only change. But when they make one, you can't help wondering if they're going to make more.

Edited November 4, 2021 by DragonFairy

[Ralph]

10 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

 

 

You are projecting.  You don't think any woman could be like that in the world today, therefore a female character in a fantasy series set in a different time (and place?) can't be like it either.

 

I think that is what we are going to get - a projection of modern day political, cultural and ideological doctrine using the world RJ created  

 

 

Not no woman, no person male or female more than ten years old. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ralph

[Maximillion]

22 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

You believe there's nothing to understand. That's your prerogative. But don't go telling other people they're not allowed to try to understand. How is this hard? Don't tell other people what to do.

 

I understand that they have made the possibility of a female DR a reality in the show.

You are seeking to understand why that might be ok - when it simply is not.  That is called trying to justify.

 

[Ralph]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

You are seeking to understand why that might be ok - when it simply is not.  

 

 

In your opinion

[Maximillion]

5 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Not no woman, no person male or female more than ten years old. 

 

Most definitely not the case - but again, even if that were true, that is your perception of the world you live in today.  Has zero to do with the story RJ created.  

[king of nowhere]

3 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

I understand that they have made the possibility of a female DR a reality in the show.

You are seeking to understand why that might be ok - when it simply is not. 

 

we get to decide for ourselves what changes are ok and what aren't.

most important of all, there is a huge gap between "this is ok" and "they RUINED THE SHOW FOREVER!!!!"

i've been trying to argue for my position of "it's not ok, but it may not be too bad either", but apparently some people are more interested in picking extremes.

[Ralph]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

Most definitely not the case - but again, even if that were true, that is your perception of the world you live in today.  Has zero to do with the story RJ created.  

 

So you would not accept any change to the story at all? You consider that unacceptable, whatever the change is? 

 

Fine, that is your prerogative. So don't watch the show and don't bother looking at the trailers and whatever else will be released. 

 

[Rose]

3 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

I understand that they have made the possibility of a female DR a reality in the show.

You are seeking to understand why that might be ok - when it simply is not.  That is called trying to justify.

 

 

I am not seeking to understand why that might be okay. I am seeking to understand the ramifications on the plot, the impact on the lore, and the hints it gives us about how the story might unfold. I'm curious. How will it play out? What will we see by the end of the season? A few seasons down the line? What will change? What won't? These are things I'm interested in.

 

I am not interested in value judgements. I am interested in practicalities. And I am discussing these practicalities here.

 

You keep on trying make me stop discussing them. You have no standing to tell me to stop talking. If you don't like what I'm saying, that's not my problem.

[king of nowhere]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

Most definitely not the case - but again, even if that were true, that is your perception of the world you live in today.  Has zero to do with the story RJ created.  

RJ was a great storyteller, but he wasn't a perfect one. "giving early egwene some better motivation" is one of those things where they can improve on the original.

 

though there was no need to make her a potential dragon for this. just tone down a bit the suspicion about aes sedai, and have moiraine tell her earlier that she has the spark, i can totally see her deciding to leave with moiraine to get training of her own choice. especially when told that three quarters of the girls with the spark who are not taught die.

[Ralph]

Just now, king of nowhere said:

RJ was a great storyteller, but he wasn't a perfect one. "giving early egwene some better motivation" is one of those things where they can improve on the original.

 

though there was no need to make her a potential dragon for this. just tone down a bit the suspicion about aes sedai, and have moiraine tell her earlier that she has the spark, i can totally see her deciding to leave with moiraine to get training of her own choice. especially when told that three quarters of the girls with the spark who are not taught die.

 

This. 

 

However, I can understand that that takes away from the emotional build up of her discovering it along the journey, and I suspect they are going to make that more significant than it is in the books