New clip about the Aes Sedai

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

RJ was a great storyteller, but he wasn't a perfect one. "giving early egwene some better motivation" is one of those things where they can improve on the original.

 

 

 

You don't seem to understand that an adaptation is not permitted to improve on the original in any way, otherwise it is just fanfic. Even if there are things that can be improved, that is not acceptable. Go write your own book if that is what you want to do /s

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ralph

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

 

This. 

 

However, I can understand that that takes away from the emotional build up of her discovering it along the journey, and I suspect they are going to make that more significant than it is in the books

 

Those are two moment I am very excited to see revealed on screen, Egwene and then Nynaeve discovering they can channel.

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

we get to decide for ourselves what changes are ok and what aren't.

most important of all, there is a huge gap between "this is ok" and "they RUINED THE SHOW FOREVER!!!!"

i've been trying to argue for my position of "it's not ok, but it may not be too bad either", but apparently some people are more interested in picking extremes.

 

Yes, you get to decide whatever you want.

As do I.  The idea that Morraine thinks the Dragon could be a 'boy or a girl' is as ridiculous as the narrative she voiced over about the sealing of the DO.  It is an awful sign of where this show is headed.

I do not need to caveat everything with 'in my opinion' or any other disclaimer.  That should be obvious already.

 

 

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

Yes, you get to decide whatever you want.

As do I.  The idea that Morraine thinks the Dragon could be a 'boy or a girl' is as ridiculous as the narrative she voiced over about the sealing of the DO.  It is an awful sign of where this show is headed.

I do not need to caveat everything with 'in my opinion' or any other disclaimer.  That should be obvious already.

 

 

 

It should be, but you have stated several times that people can try to find ways to make things fit, but they have to accept it is not OK, or ridiculous, or a huge change, or unacceptable. 

 

You even said "stop this" at one point, which I think everyone understood to mean that you felt the other person's position was not just wrong, but that they should not consider holding it and probably didn't really mean it

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ralph

[king of nowhere]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

Yes, you get to decide whatever you want.

As do I.  The idea that Morraine thinks the Dragon could be a 'boy or a girl' is as ridiculous as the narrative she voiced over about the sealing of the DO.  It is an awful sign of where this show is headed.

I do not need to caveat everything with 'in my opinion' or any other disclaimer.  That should be obvious already.

ok, in that case it's clear we won't convince you and you won't convince us. then we can stop this train and go talking about the other stuff that's in that clip?

[Maximillion]

24 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Every emotional reaction in the story is meaningful because we imagine ourselves in those positions. That is the depth of the story. 

 

To have someone reacting in such an unimaginable way does not fit with the story at all. 

 

Yes it is fantasy, but if the humanness was different I don't think anybody would be interested in reading it

 

Many millions have read it and loved it for the story RJ told.

There is no need to manipulate it to pander.

The only manipulation needed is to transfer from the page to the screen and all that entails - which doesn't include fundamentally changing the characters and the story.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

ok, in that case it's clear we won't convince you and you won't convince us. then we can stop this train and go talking about the other stuff that's in that clip?

 

Fair enough.

[Ralph]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

Many millions have read it and loved it for the story RJ told.

There is no need to manipulate it to pander.

The only manipulation needed is to transfer from the page to the screen and all that entails - which doesn't;t include fundamentally changing the characters and the story.

 

 

So don't watch it and don't watch the trailers or read the forums about it, because it isn't for you

[Ralph]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

Many millions have read it and loved it for the story RJ told.

There is no need to manipulate it to pander.

The only manipulation needed is to transfer from the page to the screen and all that entails - which doesn't;t include fundamentally changing the characters and the story.

 

If it is definitely "to pander" yes there is no need, and I would be upset if I felt they did it. I would still want to see it though, not feel they ruined it. 

 

But I have yet to see anything that made me think that might have been what had happened

[Maximillion]

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

So don't watch it and don't watch the trailers or read the forums about it, because it isn't for you

 

I have already decided not to watch it (as have many others) until it is well into the series and IF I am wrong about the social pandering that is coming in spades, I will then watch it.

I will however read comments and reply to get a sense on whether this is the car crash I expect it to be.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion

[Ralph]

And again, I believe you said a long time ago that you always suspected a show runner like Rafe would impose his agenda...... 

 

Had it never occurred to you that the people who disagree with your position don't have that preconceived attitude and potential for confirmation bias? 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ralph

[Ralph]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

I have already decided not to watch it until it is well into the series and IF I am wrong about the social pandering that is coming in spades, I will then watch it.

I will however read comments and reply to get a sense on whether this is the car crash I expect it to be.

 

You plan to judge what it is like based on the forums but without watching it? 

[Maximillion]

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

And again, I believe you said a long time ago that you always suspected a show runner like Rafe would impose his agenda...... 

 

Had it never occurred to you that the people who disagree with your position don't have that preconceived attitude and potential for confirmation bias? 

 

Rafe made it clear he sold the idea on the most progressive ideas of the day.

That was my first indication that this would not turn out well and it is not confirmation bias - it was his own words.

At that point I was still hopeful and excited about the series - I have a deep connection to these books as many do and I really wanted to see RJs story on screen (which will never happen now).

The trailers have just got worse in terms of revealing more about the pandering I am now expecting.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion

[Maximillion]

6 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

You plan to judge what it is like based on the forums but without watching it? 

 

No. Of my circle of friends who have read the books , one is still planning to watch it. Even that one person still sticking with it is incredulous at what they have done, but I trust that person and will simply ask them if it is worth watching it.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion

[DragonFairy]

8 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

 

Quote

For those saying this is building up the potential arrogance of the Aes Sedai and that eventually they will be proven wrong or perspective shifting…I personally think this is wishful thinking. Again, it just feels like someone said, “how come it’s only men who can be the Dragon?” And then they made a half baked justification so everyone can be. Then they had to shoehorn in “maybe he is a woman now”, Which again is so unnecessary considering the awesomeness of all the characters in the series that are women and they accomplishments they have. Wasn’t Rand who countered balefire…it’s all the more impressive particularly since they are not Ta’veren. It just felt like a not so subtle political agenda insertion due to gender conversations these days and the gendered magic system was ordered to be struck down or altered. (And RJ can’t be here to say no. Which frequently happens with older properties.) 

Agreed. This series has so many AWESOME women, and as I said in another comment, Rand could not have succeeded without some of them. You don't need to diminish the men in order to exalt the women.

 

Quote

This paired with the lame additions to Mat and Perrin’s backstory has me a bit prickly. Ohhh, we need everyone to potentially be the Dragon Reborn, annnnnd if it is a woman it will be EVEN better than if it’s one of the guys, oh also…make Perrin way shadier by letting his wife die and Mat shadier by giving him trashy garbage parents, but give no clues or any hint at all whatsoever that we will do anything of the sort like that to any of the female leads core character development. So…it’s socially acceptable to dump all over male leads and change their story from the way it was originally written?

 

I believe Perrin killing his wife will be an accident. But Mat's parents being trash? That totally ruins part of Mat's characterization, a big part. Yes, he's a scoundrel, but he's a scoundrel with a heart of gold who NEVER breaks his word because HE WAS RAISED WELL.

 

Whereas Egwene, who in the books, joins the party because she's immature and selfish and wants to go on an adventure, is now given a noble reason for leaving, to protect her village because she might be the DR. (Honestly, I don't even like Moiraine telling any of them about the DR. I liked the way it went in the books that the DO was after them but she wasn't sure why.)

 

8 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

Quote

Another minor example of messing with a character I’m not thrilled about is Lan emoting as much as he did. All these are seriously weak additions that are lent specifically and only to the men, either due to post modern social norms and stereotypes or new “desired” traits. Subsequently everything that “elevates” someone goes towards the women. And it’s not one or the other that bother me it’s the coupling of these things that’s so frustrating and makes it more glaring. 

 

I don't like Lan's display of emotion either. I understand why they did it, but they could have accomplished the same thing by showing Moiraine physically feeling Lan getting wounded. One AS in the books stated that she felt every wound her warder took before he died.

 

8 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

Quote

I think dudes have some right to be angry. It’s becoming more and more socially acceptable to screw with their moral character on screen, but not to do so with the women counterparts? (I’m looking at you Disney)

 

I agree, and I'm not a dude!! Come on, men mistreated and disrepected women for hundreds of years, yes. But now we're going to correct that by dumping on men? No, it doesn't work that way.

 

8 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

Quote

I will also clarify this is based on what I’ve seen so far and this could change when I see the show, but as of now I’m not super thrilled. Lastly, I think they are leaning into the whole, “it’s a new spinning of the wheel”, way too much to cover for their iffy alterations. It’s manipulating book readers to placate them against these changes. To me it’s a lovely crutch of an excuse for lackluster changes. Making Perrin kill a fake wife isn’t condensing plot. It’s complicating it further. In truth, it could come back to bite them plot wise later.

 

I have been very generous and open minded about changes over the last year and a half. But as they pile up, I am becoming less generous. They don't necessarily point to lots of unnecessary changes that significantly change the story, but there is a good possibility they do. I have to wait and see, but I am going into this with much lower expectations. If I'm wrong, then I'll be thrilled.

[Reader]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

Without going back over all the divergent threads we have running on the same topic, it seems that the people who are up in arms about this change and are close to certain it will ruin the show are the same people who are convinced it was changed solely to push an agenda and not for any in story reason. Is that accurate? 

I'd guess that there are plenty of people who believe that they know exactly why this change was introduced. The extent to which they are up in arms will vary. Life's just too short.

[king of nowhere]

17 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

You plan to judge what it is like based on the forums but without watching it? 

actually, it seems a fair plan. if wot gets positive reactions, he can conclude that maybe they did a good job despite this red flag, and watch it maybe more open minded. if they've done a bad job, he'll see negative reviews and not watch.

 

let him be. we can agree to disagree and move on, everyone.

[SinisterDeath]

The WoT adaptation by Rafe is "Woke"

 

Then explain why they cast Eamon Valda as a Black Man, who hunts women down and burns them at the stake? A character that did unspeakable things to Morgrase?

 

That's not very "woke" to portray a black man as a killer and abuser of women... Is it?

 

Explain casting a black man as Padan Fain, one of the most evil, conniving, sadistic human characters in the series, who's very existence brought about the possibility of usurping the shadow and the light.

 

Explain casting a black man as a Savage wolf brother that can barely control his emotions and not kill the people he loves?

 

If they make Logain gay, they've gone and done the worst thing you can do. Cast a straight man to play a gay character.

 

Yes, this show is sooo woke, and will never, ever be criticized for being not woke enough.

[Rose]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

actually, it seems a fair plan. if wot gets positive reactions, he can conclude that maybe they did a good job despite this red flag, and watch it maybe more open minded. if they've done a bad job, he'll see negative reviews and not watch.

 

let him be. we can agree to disagree and move on, everyone.

 

Yes please.

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The WoT adaptation by Rafe is "Woke"

 

Then explain why they cast Eamon Valda as a Black Man, who hunts women down and burns them at the stake? A character that did unspeakable things to Morgrase?

 

That's not very "woke" to portray a black man as a killer and abuser of women... Is it?

 

Explain casting a black man as Padan Fain, one of the most evil, conniving, sadistic human characters in the series, who's very existence brought about the possibility of usurping the shadow and the light.

 

Explain casting a black man as a Savage wolf brother that can barely control his emotions and not kill the people he loves?

 

 

Yes, this show is sooo very woke, and will never, ever be criticized for being not woke enough.

 

 

From what I have seen I think the angle is more feminism than race.

Morraine looking like Xena warrior princess

Female Dragon now part of the lore

Not acceptable to have Egwene's character as it was in the books

Evil men burning women

'Arrogant men'

'Left to the women'

it goes on and on and I expect it will be indoor face in every episode.

 

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

 

From what I have seen I think the angle is more feminism than race.

Morraine looking like Xena warrior princess

Female Dragon now part of the lore

Not acceptable to have Egwene's character as it was in the books

Evil men burning women

'Arrogant men'

'Left to the women'

it goes on and on and I expect it will be indoor face in every episode.

 

 

 

Yes so pro female that they make the red Ajah ultra lesbian feminist Nazis

 

So pro women, that they still have bar maids.

[king of nowhere]

3 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The WoT adaptation by Rafe is "Woke"

 

Then explain why they cast Eamon Valda as a Black Man, who hunts women down and burns them at the stake? A character that did unspeakable things to Morgrase?

 

That's not very "woke" to portray a black man as a killer and abuser of women... Is it?

 

Explain casting a black man as Padan Fain, one of the most evil, conniving, sadistic human characters in the series, who's very existence brought about the possibility of usurping the shadow and the light.

well... maybe rafe is feminist but racist? ????

after all, all those negative roles are men. and decoupling souls and genders will prepare us for the final revelations: all black ajahs are actually men who can channel saidar. they managed to infiltrate the white tower after they removed the obligation to be naked during ceremonies, because nudity was deemed demeaning.

or perhaps halfway through the first season eamon valda will take a bath and will lose all the black paint, revealing he was white all along

[Rose]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The WoT adaptation by Rafe is "Woke"

 

Then explain why they cast Eamon Valda as a Black Man, who hunts women down and burns them at the stake? A character that did unspeakable things to Morgrase?

 

That's not very "woke" to portray a black man as a killer and abuser of women... Is it?

 

Explain casting a black man as Padan Fain, one of the most evil, conniving, sadistic human characters in the series, who's very existence brought about the possibility of usurping the shadow and the light.

 

Explain casting a black man as a Savage wolf brother that can barely control his emotions and not kill the people he loves?

 

 

Yes, this show is sooo very woke, and will never, ever be criticized for being not woke enough.

 

I know you're being sarcastic, but I just want to say that yes, the show will absolutely get criticised for these three things and is already starting to be.

 

But look. Whether it's "woke" or not is something we'll never agree on because nobody even has the same understanding of what "woke" means and the goalposts keep moving. So fine. I'll say it.

 

The show will be woke.

 

Is the anti-woke crowd happy now?

 

Good.

 

Because I still want to talk about all the cool and intriguing things that are coming.

[king of nowhere]

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

'Arrogant men'

'Left to the women'

to be fair, that's moiraine's narration. it's not wrong per se, but it's told from a certain point of view.

as the series moves on, we gradually realize the aes sedai are much less smart and knowledgeable and powerful than they give themselves credit for.

actually, if they took away that part of aes sedai characterization to turn them into beacons of virtue, that's something that would lose me much more than the part about a woman dragon. but i see no signs of it

[Maximillion]

5 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yes so pro female that they make the red Ajah ultra lesbian feminist Nazis

 

So pro women, that they still have bar maids.

 

I expect lesbianism to feature a fair bit.

 

4 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

I know you're being sarcastic, but I just want to say that yes, the show will absolutely get criticised for these three things and is already starting to be.

 

But look. Whether it's "woke" or not is something we'll never agree on because nobody even has the same understanding of what "woke" means and the goalposts keep moving. So fine. I'll say it.

 

The show will be woke.

 

Is the anti-woke crowd happy now?

 

Good.

 

Because I still want to talk about all the cool and intriguing things that are coming.

 

 

Not happy at all.

Sad that the opportunity to tell RJs story in moving pictures has been hijacked.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Maximillion