A Female Dragon? Examining the Evidence

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, boldnbeautiful said:

You know that RJ created his world based on pre-gunpowder real world, right? He borrowed from many different cultures to create his Wheel of Time world. In fact, most fantasy books borrow heavily from ancient worlds to create their own world.

Yea... apparently you missed the easter egg bout Lenn, and how he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire.... Or the various other modern references which place WoT in an alternate reality/universe after our timeline.

 

3 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

I don't understand why people can't understand this aspect of fantasy world. RJ incorporated heavily from the Arthurian Legend... he even said it himself.  He didn't borrow from modern America to create Westland... you know that right?

Yet... you missed that within RJ's world, Arthurian mythology is based on Rand. ? 

[boldnbeautiful]

10 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yea... apparently you missed the easter egg bout Lenn, and how he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire.... Or the various other modern references which place WoT in an alternate reality/universe after our timeline.

 

Yet... you missed that within RJ's world, Arthurian mythology is based on Rand. ? 

Are you bit on the slow side? You do know that my original response was to people complaining how despicable that Robert Jordan incorporated corporal punishments in his WoT world building? They were saying how it doesn't make sense or people don't behave that way.  I don't think you are even understanding the original issue.

[WalterKohl]

15 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

You know that RJ created his world based on pre-gunpowder real world, right? He borrowed from many different cultures to create his Wheel of Time world. In fact, most fantasy books borrow heavily from ancient worlds to create their own world.

 

I don't understand why people can't understand this aspect of fantasy world. RJ incorporated heavily from the Arthurian Legend... he even said it himself.  He didn't borrow from modern America to create Westland... you know that right?

Shock lances, flyers... Songs that grow vegetation....

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

Are you bit on the slow side? You do know that my original response was to people complaining how despicable that Robert Jordan incorporated corporal punishments in his WoT world building? They were saying how it doesn't make sense or people don't behave that way.  I don't think you are even understanding the original issue.

Lets see....

Straw Mans, Ad Hominems, Moving the Goal Posts, and no true scottsman, are you aiming for the Troll Leaderboards?

[Tim]

The issue with depicting certain forms of corporal punishment is not whether  the punishment is historically inaccurate or inappropriate in a modern context or whatever, it’s whether it will come across to new audiences as off-puttingly leering and pervy and cause too many people to turn off the show. 
 

Punishment - of any sort - that is depicted tastefully and is justified within the show’s universe, and does not appear like it’s just there to satisfy a subset of viewers who like seeing gratuitous nudity and gratuitous violence intermingled, won’t be an issue.

 

Cadsuane spanking Semirhage seems like a good example of a scene that is both worth keeping and relatively straightforward to present to new audiences as both justified and appropriate. 

[MasterAblar]

I do have to agree that, while I don't mind the spanking given that it was at times a valid form of punishment in our world, and therefore could be just as valid in the WoT world, it is unlikely to be received particularly well by a TV audience.

 

Sure maybe thats just people being immature and what not but it wouldn't be a big issue to, for the most part, replace it by a form of corporeal punishment that wouldn't make a modern audience burst out laughing at how silly it seems to punish grown people with spanking.

[Deadsy]

37 minutes ago, Tim said:

The issue with depicting certain forms of corporal punishment is not whether  the punishment is historically inaccurate or inappropriate in a modern context or whatever, it’s whether it will come across to new audiences as off-puttingly leering and pervy and cause too many people to turn off the show. 
 

Punishment - of any sort - that is depicted tastefully and is justified within the show’s universe, and does not appear like it’s just there to satisfy a subset of viewers who like seeing gratuitous nudity and gratuitous violence intermingled, won’t be an issue.

 

Cadsuane spanking Semirhage seems like a good example of a scene that is both worth keeping and relatively straightforward to present to new audiences as both justified and appropriate. 

 

 

Most people will find it freakin' weird. So I agree. But I am not one of those people, so it makes me a bit sad.

Oh and the only bad thing about RJ having it in the series is it was 99% females.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Deadsy

[MasterAblar]

True, the fact that it literally only happens to women would definitely make people side eye it a bit, even though the men are actually threatened with it as well at times.

 

Which to be fair there's a fairly reasonable explanation (at least to me), which is that the women tend to operate within established power structures as opposed the main male characters we follow who all operate independently or as leaders very early on.

[WalterKohl]

33 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

True, the fact that it literally only happens to women would definitely make people side eye it a bit, even though the men are actually threatened with it as well at times.

 

Which to be fair there's a fairly reasonable explanation (at least to me), which is that the women tend to operate within established power structures as opposed the main male characters we follow who all operate independently or as leaders very early on.

Um... Ok just throwing this out there but what if the spank the men as much as they spanked the women would that work....   Cause that's a lot of man ass to watch get slapped....not that there's anything wrong with that....

[Deadsy]

34 minutes ago, WalterKohl said:

Um... Ok just throwing this out there but what if the spank the men as much as they spanked the women would that work....   Cause that's a lot of man ass to watch get slapped....not that there's anything wrong with that....

 

I'm all for it ?

 

[Morani]

12 hours ago, TheMountain said:

Agreed. People don't realize that the humiliation and injury to pride part of the punishment is key. Think about what happened to Semirhage. One of the most powerful and feared people in the world, one of the Forsaken... one who undoubtedly endured the painful torment of the Dark One many times... simply turned over Cadsuane's knee and spanked like a child. The indignity of it is what broke her.

 

I think the "problem" is that most people do not associate spanking with children, they associate it with sex. Most adults do not hit their children, in fact it is illegal in a very large part of the civilized world (as well it should be!). In the cases that adults do beat their children, few do something as elaborate as spanking. 

 

Spanking as a sexual act is however extremely widespread. For the average viewer it will therefor not read as reducing someone to a child, it will read as reducing them to a sexual object. It is a very large risk it will come off as silly and make the viewers have the entirely wrong reaction to it. 

 

At the end of the day, we want the series renewed. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Morani

[wotfan4472]

On 11/2/2021 at 9:07 AM, Tim said:

 

 

Where is the evidence for that? The key gender themes are obviously still there: the split between male and female channellers with the former going mad and being hunted and the second holding social power (albeit contested); the social splits between female and male social power even at the village level (we know they’re keeping the women’s circle for example).

 

The only thing we know Rafe has concretely suggested he will change is polygamy to polyamory. And there was something off-feeling about the books giving females more social power but then making all polygamous relationships one man to multiple women (other than for green aes sedai - which in sone ways made it worse by suggesting that polygamy is made possible by an imbalance in authority and that only aes sedai among women could benefit from that imbalance).

I would go so far as to say that it felt incoherent, like RJ hadn’t really thought through the implications of introducing that element in the context of other tweaks to gender relations he had made in the WOT universe.

 

One option to correct that would be to make polygamy more common and running both ways. But given how few relationships are affected by it in the books, the less invasive adjustment is just to avoid the concept of polygamy entirely and/or replace it with something close but less bound up with notions of social power (polyamory).
 

That’s not necessarily about watering down the show for modern sensibilities - Big Love was an excellent modern show primarily about polygamy - but probably mostly about making the show make more sense.

The issue I have, is if Rafe has decided to change Rand's relationship with his three women because he could, what is to stop him from doing the same with Amys and Rhuarc, or any other relationship in the world he comes across because he is uncomfortable with them?

It is about more than just changing a relationship.

Is it changing a cultural custom of the Aiel because he does not like it?

That will anger many people, if they watch the show, then read the books, because it has been done in the real world to people's customs and cultures world wide.

That change could leave a mark on the books in the future, just as The Last Jedi affected all of Star Wars, but much worse. I hope I am wrong about that possibility. But considering what has been changed in entertainment, and films and shows that have suffered from them, I am worried, because it fits a pattern of the times.

Because, the danger is the bigger changes that many have given in this thread as examples, could happen as late as the final season of this show, regardless of what has come before.

There is always the danger of the shows writers changing the Dragon from the Rand to Egwene in the last season due to pressure from outside, just to prove a point. There are already signs of that pressure even this early.

Heck, there are some non readers that are already looking for the "woke tropes" that reacted to the main trailer, and one looking for the which one of the five Aes Sedai at the start of the trailer is lesbian question. Considering the Red Ajah, I cringed, and that was just a thumb nail. 

Considering what is happening, I am not surprised these questions are coming up.

[SinisterDeath]

14 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

The issue I have, is if Rafe has decided to change Rand's relationship with his three women because he could, what is to stop him from doing the same with Amys and Rhuarc, or any other relationship in the world he comes across because he is uncomfortable with them?

The "change" Rafe proposed doesn't change that all three women are in a relationship with Rand. Polygamy is tied to marriage, and *checks books* they weren't married. Polyamory, is a more modern description of that kind of relationship, and opens up the possibility of the girls having relations with each other, and not just Rand.

I suspect the Fanbase won't mind that.

 

21 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

Is it changing a cultural custom of the Aiel because he does not like it?

Why would you think he dislikes Aiel Culture? 

Unlike reality, they have a very progressive/natural view of sex. Men marry multiple women, multiple women marry multiple men. Women have relationships with women, and I'm sure plenty of Men play "find the spear in the dark".

 

24 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

That change could leave a mark on the books in the future, just as The Last Jedi affected all of Star Wars, but much worse.

TBF, the star wars fanbase is full of whiney Incels.

On the other hand, the directors & writers for the latest Star Wars Movies, had zero communication or overall direction for where they wanted the new trilogy to go. (Think of it like one of those group writing projects where each person writes a sentence)

 

This show has a "Show Runner", who's goal is to direct the overall flow of the show/writing to be cohesive. 

Unless they fire Rafe and get a new show runner each season, that won't happen here.

 

27 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

. I hope I am wrong about that possibility. But considering what has been changed in entertainment, and films and shows that have suffered from them, I am worried, because it fits a pattern of the times.

Here's an easy solution.

Stop looking looking for things to be offended over.

 

28 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

There is always the danger of the shows writers changing the Dragon from the Rand to Egwene in the last season due to pressure from outside, just to prove a point. There are already signs of that pressure even this early.

LOL, man the level of speculation here is on par with MSNBC*. ? 

Why would they "change" the dragon from Rand to Egwene in the last season of WoT, when they would have built up seasons worth of fulfilled prophecy's? 

 

*(Back when flight 370 went missing, MSNBC aired a LOT of wild speculation for 6 months non stop. It got so bad other news sites were like "Dude...")

 

32 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

Heck, there are some non readers that are already looking for the "woke tropes"

Oh wow, who would have thunk it that the "anti-woke troops" would be actively looking for anything "woke" to be upset over?

 

33 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

and one looking for the which one of the five Aes Sedai at the start of the trailer is lesbian question.

Oh gods, Lesbians! WHY MUST THEY SHOVE THAT GAY AGENDA DOWN OUR THROATS! /s

 

33 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

Considering the Red Ajah, I cringed, and that was just a thumb nail. 

Considering what is happening, I am not surprised these questions are coming up.

Those "woke" questions are beyond dumb. I don't get why this "anti-woke" crowd strives to be the "victim" in everything.

 

Here's an easy way to enjoy media.

Sit back, watch it, and enjoy the show. Don't like it? Watch something else. 
 

Don't go looking for a political "woke" agenda between the lines.

 

What ya'll "anti-wokers" are doing, is acting like those woke people who go to art museums, and look at paintings of Campbell's Soup and say things like "This is an expression of the artists despair over the injustice of capitalism, and exemplifies the reality of poverty!"

[themann1086]

I don't want to get into a debate about The Last Jedi because, one, it'd be wildly off-topic, and two, I am so tired of having it, but I do want to ask: why do people feel like bad sequels, prequels, and adaptations "ruin" the original material? I absolutely loathe both Rise of Skywalker and the prequel trilogy, but that doesn't ruin the original movies. If anything I appreciate them more!

 

I do feel bad for WoT fans who will end up disliking the TV show (that could include me! I'm mildly optimistic but it, you know, hasn't aired yet). It stinks when media you like gets taken in a direction you don't want. But in the end... the community isn't a monolith. Your headcanons aren't universal. People like different things. And in a universe where the Third Age happens literally an infinite number of times, where the story of the Dark One being sealed, his retaliating strike, and the Creator's champion being reborn to face him once again is told and re-told endlessly... I don't know, but I find it so limiting to insist that it CAN'T happen this way or that. That's different from wanting to see/read it happen a particular way, which is completely fair! The Wheel may turn endlessly, but we're probably only getting one TV show!

 

But personally, what I always loved about Wheel of Time was those endless What If ideas of how the Pattern could have been spun. What IF it was the women in the Age of Legends who had struck at Shayol Ghul to seal up the Bore to the Dark One's prison, and saidar was tainted as a result? The whole history of the Third Age would be completely different! It'd be fascinating! Do I want the WoTTV show to do that? Absolutely not! But I find it fun to think about (and I would absolutely consume a Marvel-styled What If spin-off series like a thirsty man in the desert consumes water, come on Amazon do it). That's not true of everyone though. And that's ok. But no matter what, we'll always have the books.

 

ETA: New clip dropped, Moiraine VO says that men broke the world, the Dragon led them, and (explicitly) "we don't know if he was reborn as a girl or a boy". Obviously we know it's Rand but that does imply the prophecies are less clear on that aspect.

 

To connect this with the above: do I like this? Not really, no. Does this "ruin" the books or mean I won't like the show? Also no. I am interested to say how they implement it though.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by themann1086
New clip

[Maximillion]

So we can dispense with the Aes Sedai trickery silliness.

The entire Dragon lore of RJs world has been changed.

New trailer makes it clear.

 

"We don't know if he has been born as a boy or a girl".

 

...and no, we don't know that Rand will even be the Dragon in this loosely based adaption on the books.

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Maximillion

[TheMountain]

I hate being right.

Edited November 3, 2021 by TheMountain

[Skipp]

7 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

So we can dispense with the Aes Sedai trickery silliness.

The entire Dragon lore of RJs world has been changed.

New trailer makes it clear.

 

"We don't know if he has been born as a boy or a girl".

 

...and no, we don't know that Rand will even be the Dragon in this loosely based adaption on the books.

 

Assuming this isn't a Marketing dub of the voiceover it could mean that Moiraine is working with imperfect information, ie the Foretelling was more vague. 

 

Or it could mean that Reborn souls can be born in different gendered bodies.  Which would be a big change for the story.

 

I wonder what the westlands would be like if they were hoping for a sane Female Dragon rather than an insane Male Dragon.......  Honestly probably the same infighting that we saw.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Skipp
Additional thought

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

There's NO way they're changing who the Dragon Reborn is. It's going to be Rand.

 

BUT...say they decided to. I don't understand the big deal. RJ, himself, made it cannon that souls can be reborn in male or female bodies (re: Aran'gar). The soul will still channel Saidin.

 

Not sure what the problem is for people. If the Dragon (whether male or female) goes through the same journey as in the books what's there to complain about. 

 

Personally, can't wait to see Galad, Gawyn, and Rand all be bonded to Egwene ?

[TheMountain]

At what point does the show become "inspired by" rather than "based on" the Wheel of Time?

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

At what point does the show become "inspired by" rather than "based on" the Wheel of Time?

 

When they actually change something that will affect the story profoundly.  If the clip is accurate and not a marketing dub all it means is that Moiraine doesn't know the gender of the DR.  Characters in fiction don't always have all the information.  If the foretelling that Moiraine heard used They instead of He would she still assume the DR was reborn as a man?  Even if the DR can only be reborn as a man that doesn't mean everyone knows that.  We don't get an instruction manual to the universe.

[Skipp]

As proven many times in this series something is only impossible until it happens once.

 

Nynaeve curing Stilling/Gentling

A soul channeling Saidan in a Female body

Aes Sedai inventing the Warder Bond which baffles the Forsaken

Wise ones teach how to unweave weaves which baffles everyone

[king of nowhere]

assuming it's not a marketing dub, it would be interesting to see how they changed the prophecies to fit the story. i mean, if they leave the prophecy about the dragon going mad for saidin, and they open the possibility that the dragon will be reborn a woman, then it's a plot hole.

but if they also subtly change the prophecies so that the dragon is not linked to saidin... and, thinking about it, the actual prophecies we saw never mentioned saidin, they just implied the dragon would go mad, and all the stress at being the chosen one was a factor at least as big as the taint...

well, i'm not crazy with this change, but if they adjust the prophecies accordingly, i can live with that

9 hours ago, Morani said:

 

I think the "problem" is that most people do not associate spanking with children, they associate it with sex. Most adults do not hit their children, in fact it is illegal in a very large part of the civilized world (as well it should be!). In the cases that adults do beat their children, few do something as elaborate as spanking. 

 

Spanking as a sexual act is however extremely widespread. For the average viewer it will therefor not read as reducing someone to a child, it will read as reducing them to a sexual object. It is a very large risk it will come off as silly and make the viewers have the entirely wrong reaction to it. 

 

At the end of the day, we want the series renewed. 

is that so?

in my perception, everyone associates spanking with child punishment, and as a sexual act it is restricted to a small community that is watched with puzzlement from outside.

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

9 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

At what point does the show become "inspired by" rather than "based on" the Wheel of Time?

If you go by the Google definitions it was never going to be "based on" as it was always noted to be an adaptation and, therefore, "inspired by."

 

(Although, I'm pretty sure the definition of "based on" is extremely loose in Hollywood nowadays. Pretty sure The Conjuring is "based on" a true story..)

 

Just curious, honestly, how many people would actually like to see a word for word recreation of WoT? I think that would be immensely intolerable and how up terrible to a visual medium like TV.

[Deadsy]

Again, this has almost no impact on anything. Non-readers will not realize how much it would have changed the story to have a woman be the DR until well after the first season, by which point the DR will be known to be Rand. All it does is show Moiraine to be open-minded to the possibilities.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Deadsy

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

13 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

Again, this has almost no impact on anything. Non-readers will not realize how much it would have changed the story to have a woman be the DR until well after the first season, by which point the DR will be known to be Rand. All it does is show Moiraine to be open-minded to the possibilities.

And if there's any chance of this series being successful and, say, us getting to see things like Dumai's Wells then many more people have to tune in. The "hardcore" fans will not and were never going to be able to support this series alone.

 

I know this is frustrating for some but this is, likely, the only real chance that we get a big budget WoT adaptation. Perhaps, and this is a different topic altogether, WoT should never have been adapted. Then everyone's accurate, or inaccurate, head cannon would remain true. That's the safety in not trying though, right...

 

I'm cautiously optimistic and just want them to get the "soul" of the series right. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by thievingsackofpotatoes