A Female Dragon? Examining the Evidence

[Elder_Haman]

 

Okay, once again let's evaluate the evidence in front of us rather than leaping to conclusions. Let's all concede two baseline facts:

 

(1) There is an ambiguity built into this whole "Who is the Dragon" question reflected in the promotional materials released yesterday as to the gender of the Dragon. I'll further concede that the ambiguity is intentional.

 

(2) We have yet to see the entire show in context and so have no actual idea of how anything will be depicted on screen.

 

Now, let's examine the remaining evidence and decide what it tells us.

 

• Moiraine "heard rumors of four young people who potentially matched the prophecy of the Dragon Reborn."

Ask yourself, what is the content of these rumors? Who are the four young people? How is it that these young people "potentially match" the prophecy? We don't know the answers to these questions. 

 

• Moiraine [supposedly] tells a group [supposedly] including Rand, Perrin, Mat and Egwene that "one of you four" is the Dragon Reborn.

 

Realize first, that the actual quotation here matters as does the context of the clip. But even if the context and quotation are as reported, this is (a) a technically true statement since Rand is the Dragon Reborn and is included in the four being addressed; and (b) does not automatically follow from that statement that Egwene is under consideration - though it may follow depending on the context of the statement.

 

Let's also recall that the Lews Therin is identified elsewhere in the promotional materials both as a male and as the prior Dragon. The materials also note that the Dragon Reborn is "believed to be Lews Therin spun back into the world."

 

Now let's examine two possible constructions of the evidence:

 

Construction 1:

Moiraine and Lan ride into town. They believe the Dragon Reborn could potentially be a female channeler and include Egwene among those potential candidates.

 

Do we have anything right now that contradicts this theory? Not directly, no. 

 

Construction 2:

Moiraine and Lan hear rumors about four babies being born in this remote village at a time which would match the Dragon's birth. Having four born so close together is a unique event in such a small village, so Moiraine and Lan go to investigate. Upon arriving, Moiraine immediately notes the four people of the correct age, she immediately excludes Egwene because she's female but also immediately recognizes Egwene's strength in the Power (and/or that Egwene is ta'veren) and so contrives to bring her along.

 

Do we have anything right now that contradicts this theory? Again, no.

 

Therefore, all that we can safely conclude for right now is that there is a desire to play up the ambiguity of who the "Chosen One" is for purposes of marketing. There is zero downside to allowing the audience to draw whatever conclusions they want or to speculate as much as they want before the show comes out.

 

We have no idea how the writers intend to explain RJ's lore to the audience. We have to consider that this ambiguity may actually be a story vehicle for helping to explain saidar and saidin to the audience. For example, maybe this backwoods village girl hears about the Dragon being reborn, then also that she has "great power" and has a moment of panic - "could it be me?!" and then Moiraine has an opportunity to explain that no, the Dragon must be a male channeler.

 

I greatly prefer option 2. I will be annoyed if they choose option 1. Option 1 wouldn't make me stop watching the show, but it would definitely require Amazon to earn my goodwill back. Option 2 seems the more likely choice to me. What do y'all think?

[Katherine]

So it makes sense to me that it might go like this: 

 

• The Dragon could be male or female. 
• The world is holding its breath.... waiting to see if the next dragon is a crazy dude or awesome woman. 
• Everyone is hoping that it will be Egwene because that means she will be a safe Dragon because she weilds saidar. 
• Everyone is devestated and terrified when it turns out to be Rand. 

 

Edit: Which... to be fair.... creates a plot line that ends in a similar place. No one wants the Dragon to be Reborn. Everyone is terrified of male channelers, and the world's cultures are filled with examples of this. 

 

Maybe it will work out. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Katherine

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Katherine said:

So it makes sense to me that it might go like this: 

 

• The Dragon could be male or female. 
• The world is holding its breath.... waiting to see if the next dragon is a crazy dude or awesome woman. 
• Everyone is hoping that it will be Egwene because that means she will be a safe Dragon because she weilds saidar. 
• Everyone is devestated and terrified when it turns out to be Rand. 

That's a possibility. I don't love it.

But it seems more likely that Egwene will be quickly eliminated as a candidate and the attention will shift to Rand, Mat and Perrin as they develop their quirks. Even then, I suspect we will have no doubt that it's Rand by the end of S1.

 

Those are just my guesses though.

[DojoToad]

I don't know.  I'm fine with dragging out the suspense between any number of boys/men in the village.  Remember that Moiraine also looked at boys other than Rand, Perrin, and Mat before honing in on those three.

 

I can see Moiraine leading Egwene by the nose because she senses her potential, but Nynaeve's was even greater (I think) and she didn't try to pull her along - maybe thought she was too old.

 

All this thinking makes my head hurt.  Rafe did what he did.  We'll see soon and decide for ourselves if we can live with it.

[king of nowhere]

yes, the recent hints about that are worrying, but they are in no way a sure sign of disaster. it could be just a marketing ploy, or it could be done in a way that would not be too bad

[Agitel]

Let me start by saying that I am not being doom-and-gloomy. I just enjoy the speculation. But I'll offer up some additional implicit evidence that we may see the possibility of LTT reborn as a woman floated on the show. (This is not to say they will change who actually is the Dragon Reborn. I have no belief they will change that.)

 

(Alright, due to technical difficulties with trying to get screenshots, I'll just refer to the text.)

 

On the timeline, for 978 NE, the text reads: "A child was born, believed to be Lews Therin spun back into the world to once again challenge the Dark One. This person has been referred to in prophecy as the Dragon Reborn. They are fated to have great power, and it is said they will either save the world, or destroy it."

 

And for 979 NE, the text reads: "The Aes Sedai Moiraine began her search for the next Dragon - an individual born on a foretold date, said to be the chosen one who is able to touch the source of the One Power, powerful enough to save the world from the Dark One, or destroy it again."

 

Both above references avoid any use of male pronouns or the words "boy" or "man". Instead we see "this person" and "an individual". Even more explicitly implicit is the use of the gender-neutral pronoun "they".

 

Here is Egwene's character blurb: "The innkeeper's daughter, Egwene, is wise beyond her years. She is determined, steadfast, and driven by logic. She's promised to marry Rand, but others see her potential. The town Wisdom wishes to train her, and the arrival of an Aes Sedai who wants to take her from Two Rivers further complicates her once simple life. She's quickly realizing she could be more important than anyone ever imagined."

 

Now, true enough to the books, she is more important than she or anyone in her village may have ever thought possible. But, with everything above, it seems that the marketing campaign is suggesting she could possibly be the Dragon Reborn. Those who haven't read the books but are following along with these blurbs could easily draw this conclusion, and this does not seem unintentional.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Agitel

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, Agitel said:

this does not seem unintentional.

Right. Which is why I said, "I'll concede this ambiguity is intentional". 

[Lance Mitchell]

9 minutes ago, Katherine said:

So it makes sense to me that it might go like this: 

 

• The Dragon could be male or female. 
• The world is holding its breath.... waiting to see if the next dragon is a crazy dude or awesome woman. 
• Everyone is hoping that it will be Egwene because that means she will be a safe Dragon because she weilds saidar. 
• Everyone is devestated and terrified when it turns out to be Rand. 

 

Edit: Which... to be fair.... creates a plot line that ends in a similar place. No one wants the Dragon to be Reborn. Everyone is terrified of male channelers, and the world's cultures are filled with examples of this. 

 

Maybe it will work out. 

Yes, this is where I am at. 

Imagine it. Moraine having just the faintest glimmer of hope that they can avoid utter devastation and another Breaking by the chance - just a chance - that the Dragon could be female. It would mean that she could be safely guided by the White Tower and would not go crazy by using the One Power - giving humanity a fighting chance.

 

Imagine that journey, Moraine watching the group so closely, hoping beyond hope that it is Egwene. Then imagine the complete dread when the realisation dawns that it is indeed Rand.

That said, I agree that playing Egwene up as a red herring does obviously change several aspects of lore and potential characterisation. Moraine and Siuan's quest, regardless of going against the entire White Tower, and their entirely philosophy, in order to bring forth a Male Dragon to fight the Dark One; is something that I absolutely do not want lost. This would undeniably be muted or lost if there was a chance that the Dragon could be female.

But just as long as Egwene is just a red herring, I could live with that.

[Agitel]

I'd happily be wrong here, and I'm not saying it is inevitable they do what I suggested.

[Maximillion]

I think at this stage we're just hoping they won't do it, but that has come from a position where we thought we knew they couldn't possibly do it.

Acceptance - or at least resignation - comes next that they bloody are going to do it.

 

[Elder_Haman]

I don't even think Egwene will be offered as a red herring. She just won't be eliminated from the audience's mind right away. The audience may not find out for an episode or two that the DR has to be a man. 

 

No harm in that.

[king of nowhere]

16 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

I think at this stage we're just hoping they won't do it, but that has come from a position where we thought we knew they couldn't possibly do it.

Acceptance - or at least resignation - comes next that they bloody are going to do it.

alternatively, they won't do it and we'll all wonder how we could even think they'd do it.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

alternatively, they won't do it and we'll all wonder how we could even think they'd do it.

Far more likely, IMO.

[TheDreadReader]

13 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

alternatively, they won't do it and we'll all wonder how we could even think they'd do it.

 

Indeed.  I think that that there are a lot of fans that think "GOT had the Red Wedding and it was successful so therefore WOT needs an equivalent surprise."   It generates a lot of talk but may not be based on any real evidence.  Chasing that surprise on the part of the production team may actually increase the amount of "it is just a GOT clone" comments down the road and be counter productive to the shows chances.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Ryan al'Thor]

Not a fan. The theory that it's a red herring to further attract female viewers and create suspense doesn't hold water. Simply because when that small segment of viewers they attract (that find a female-controlled world isn't enough), they will be unhappy when it's just another typical strong male protagonist. The bait and switch isn't a great plan. Not enough payoff to break the prophecy as is and break RJs comments that the Dragon is always male.

[DaddyFinn]

Egwene is a very powerful woman in her own right. Surely that will attract viewers when the show picks up.

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, Ryan al'Thor said:

Not a fan. The theory that it's a red herring to further attract female viewers and create suspense doesn't hold water. Simply because when that small segment of viewers they attract (that find a female-controlled world isn't enough), they will be unhappy when it's just another typical strong male protagonist. The bait and switch isn't a great plan. Not enough payoff to break the prophecy as is and break RJs comments that the Dragon is always male.

Agreed.  The world is run by women throughout the series (though that starts to change at the end with the rise of the Black Tower).  Yes, Aes Sedai.  No, Aes Sedai.  Whatever you want Aes Sedai...

 

Pushing Egwene into the Dragon Reborn role as a red herring or otherwise is not needed.

[Elder_Haman]

16 minutes ago, Ryan al'Thor said:

 Not enough payoff to break the prophecy as is and break RJs comments that the Dragon is always male.

 

The prophecy is not broken!  Or rather, there is insufficient evidence to conclude that is what's happening. 

[DojoToad]

20 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

The prophecy is not broken!  Or rather, there is insufficient evidence to conclude that is what's happening. 

But we'll still talk about it until we know for sure.  ?

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, DojoToad said:

But we'll still talk about it until we know for sure.  ?

Truth.

I'm hoping the trailer puts this issue to rest rather than adding fuel to the fire, but we shall see.

 

[DojoToad]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Truth.

I'm hoping the trailer puts this issue to rest rather than adding fuel to the fire, but we shall see.

 

Give me fuel, give me fire, give me that which I desire...

[king of nowhere]

22 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

 Yes, Aes Sedai.  No, Aes Sedai.

"may I sweep another floor, aes sedai?

I dress the way I want"

[Tim]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

I don't even think Egwene will be offered as a red herring. She just won't be eliminated from the audience's mind right away. The audience may not find out for an episode or two that the DR has to be a man. 

 

Yes, I think this is most likely. I think the show might drip feed lore a bit so that for new audiences it won’t be clear why the DR would definitely need to be a man straight away, but then they get a better sense of what happened with LTT by episode 2 or 3 - especially given the likely-simultaneous Logain plot.

 

The whole “one of your four…” thing may even be the show’s way of demonstrating how an aes sedai’s obligation to tell the truth works in practice. It would set up the Moiraine / Rand dynamic quite effectively if Rand decides that Egwene has been tricked into coming along. He could also tell Egwene that she should go back to the TR and be frustrated that she decides to stay. 

[Tim]

Another thought: the character summaries emphasise Rand’s commitment to protecting Egwene. Assuming we can even take them at all seriously, it might be that Moiraine uses this misdirection to manipulate the others and in particular Rand into coming - to protect the always-eager Egwene if nothing else. Though you’d think telling them they might be the DR would be added motivation.

 

Perhaps more straightforwardly, it might provide a more clear/straightforward motivation for Nynaeve to abandon her village, given her closeness to Egwene. And for her hatred of Moiraine when she realises they’ve been duped. 

 

I do suspect we’re going to see lots of evidence of Moiraine manipulating the EF5 in the first few episodes - it’s a good way to show rather than repeatedly tell audiences why/how randlanders are suspicious of Aes Sedai. 

[TheMountain]

3 hours ago, Lance Mitchell said:

Imagine that journey, Moraine watching the group so closely, hoping beyond hope that it is Egwene.

 

I imagined it. I hated it.