New Content on Prime Video Wheel of Time Page!!

[Maximillion]

6 minutes ago, Katherine said:

 

 

How? How? How can she be the dragon if she is a woman? That just doesn't make sense and FUNDAMENTALLY changes the magic system, lore, and history. This is SUCH an unnecessary change that change wayyyyy too much. 

 

Yeah - saw the same and fully confirmed that it will be Rand, Egwene, Mat and Perrin.

We kind of knew from the teasers anyway.

They are changing the entire premise of the story - unless they make Egwene a man trapped in womans body, somewhat similar to Aran'gar

[Agitel]

8 minutes ago, Katherine said:

 

 

How? How? How can she be the dragon if she is a woman? That just doesn't make sense and FUNDAMENTALLY changes the magic system, lore, and history. This is SUCH an unnecessary change that change wayyyyy too much. 

 

It doesn't really change the magic system. It would make some changes to history and expectations. The DR is (according to the marketing materials) prophesied to save or destroy the world, and if souls are de-gendered such that LTT can be reborn as either a man or a woman, cultures are waiting with baited breath to see if he'll be reborn as a woman with clean magic or a man destined to go insane. And when it's confirmed a man... well that will not be good. It's a coin toss. Or maybe a dice analogy is more appropriate.

[Maximillion]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

 

It doesn't really change the magic system. It would make some changes to history and expectations. The DR is (according to the marketing materials) prophesied to save or destroy the world, and if souls are de-gendered such that LTT can be reborn as either a man or a woman, cultures are waiting with baited breath to see if he'll be reborn as a woman with clean magic or a man destined to go insane. And when it's confirmed a man... well that will not be good. It's a coin toss. Or maybe a dice analogy is more appropriate.

 

Yeah, but that is not what people in the world were waiting for at all.

It's a complete change to the story.

I won't be alone in not watching this series if this is what they are doing. I don;t need a lecture on girl power from the producer.

Reading the thousands of posts on this on Reddit, I suspect they are just about to lose 25-30% of the audience.

?

 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Maximillion

[Katherine]

59 minutes ago, Borderlander said:

And maybe worth keeping in mind that these little snippets are so poorly written, you have to wonder how much communication there was between Random Marketing Guy who whipped these up and the actual production team. Rafe may know all the subtle ins and out of the lore, the DR, saidar vs. saiden, etc., but whoever wrote these little bios may not. They are riddled with errors, bad writing, and bad grammar:

 

For example:

 

A mysterious and powerful Aes Sedai capable of channeling the One Power, her arrival brings with it concern, and threat of chaos.

 

shouldn't it be "and a/the threat of chaos"

 

Aes Sedai may never speak that which is not true, but the truth one tells you is not always the truth you may think.

 

This is so clunky it hurts my head. I doubt RJ ever worded it so poorly.

 

She’s promised to marry Rand, but others see her potential.

 

What does this even mean? (I know what it means; it's just very clumsy.)

 

The town Wisdom wishes to train her, and the arrival of an Aes Sedai who wants to take her from Two Rivers further complicates her once simple life.

 

So now it's Two Rivers, not the Two Rivers?

 

She’s quickly realizing she could be more important than anyone ever imagined.

 

Except for all those other people who saw her potential...?

 

When Moiraine arrives in Two Rivers, he pays little mind.

 

Okay, Two Rivers it is! Oh, wait a second...

 

Nynaeve is fierce and assertive, commanding respect as the youngest Wisdom the Two Rivers has ever seen.

 

?

 

I could go on! (and on and on) but the point is, maybe we should not take these dinky little write-ups like they are the gospel truth.

 

So much of this has felt like amateur hour. 

 

 

[mogi68]

9 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

Yeah, but that is not what people in the world were waiting for at all.

It's a complete change to the story.

I won't be alone in not watching this series if this is what they are doing. I don;t need a lecture on girl power from the producer.

?

 

 

 

It changes the universe a bit. It's a quirk of the cosmology that souls are seemingly tied to gender in the Wheel of Time. Honestly, it's surprising that this franchise is being adapted at all - binary gender essentialism is haram in modern western society. I wonder how the show will address Saidar and Saidin, or if they will somehow sidestep that

[Katherine]

22 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

It doesn't really change the magic system. It would make some changes to history and expectations. The DR is (according to the marketing materials) prophesied to save or destroy the world, and if souls are de-gendered such that LTT can be reborn as either a man or a woman, cultures are waiting with baited breath to see if he'll be reborn as a woman with clean magic or a man destined to go insane. And when it's confirmed a man... well that will not be good. It's a coin toss. Or maybe a dice analogy is more appropriate.

 

This is probably it. 

 

But another thing it changes is the fact that the boys stood out because they were ta'veren on top of everything. Are they going to throw that out completely? That seems the easiest path I guess but dang....... 

 

AND WHY?!!!!! If it isn't an attempt to elevate a female character (which, dammit, Egwene is a bad ass and doesn't need Amazon producers to help her at all) then whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? How does it help the story?

 

 

[Borderlander]

19 minutes ago, Katherine said:

So much of this has felt like amateur hour. 

 

Definitely some unforced errors in this particular Prime marketing release.

[Borderlander]

25 minutes ago, Agitel said:

The DR is (according to the marketing materials) prophesied to save or destroy the world, and if souls are de-gendered such that LTT can be reborn as either a man or a woman, cultures are waiting with baited breath to see if he'll be reborn as a woman with clean magic or a man destined to go insane.

 

I was always under the impression that souls were reborn as their original sex, and when the Dark One resurrected his minions as the opposite gender it was only possible because the Dark One himself got involved and made it happen. There's no evidence that Birgitta or Artur Hawkwing or any of the other Heroes of the Horn ever come back as the opposite sex, is there?

[Agitel]

6 minutes ago, Borderlander said:

 

I was always under the impression that souls were reborn as their original sex, and when the Dark One resurrected his minions as the opposite gender it was only possible because the Dark One himself got involved and made it happen. There's no evidence that Birgitta or Artur Hawkwing or any of the other Heroes of the Horn ever come back as the opposite sex, is there?

 

That was my impression. Though we only see LTT and the Heroes of the Horn as specific examples of known rebirths, which could in theory follow different rules (not that living in world characters would know). However, aside from those cases, it also seems pretty canon that access to saidin and saidar are tied to souls, suggesting that souls have gender. You could see some tweaking here. I'm less concerned with the idea that regular souls aren't spun out with the same gender every time and more with how not anticipating a male dragon affects the world lore, and admittedly also with Egwene being ta'veren. It's not show breaking for me, but meh.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Agitel

[DaddyFinn]

What if a female Dragon managed to taint saidar also? That would destroy the world for good. Honestly, I don't care at all about this change. It doesn't matter to me. I'm not as hardcore as some of you. As long as Rand is the one, I'm happy.

[king of nowhere]

29 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

Yeah - saw the same and fully confirmed that it will be Rand, Egwene, Mat and Perrin.

We kind of knew from the teasers anyway.

They are changing the entire premise of the story - unless they make Egwene a man trapped in womans body, somewhat similar to Aran'gar

I thought the same, that I could sort of maybe vaguely accept this interpretation.

But it doesn't work. Egwene has the spark for saidar, and moiraine can feel it. And if she can feel it, she'll know she can't channel saidin, and she's ruled out as DR.

28 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

It doesn't really change the magic system. It would make some changes to history and expectations. The DR is (according to the marketing materials) prophesied to save or destroy the world, and if souls are de-gendered such that LTT can be reborn as either a man or a woman, cultures are waiting with baited breath to see if he'll be reborn as a woman with clean magic or a man destined to go insane. And when it's confirmed a man... well that will not be good. It's a coin toss. Or maybe a dice analogy is more appropriate.

on the other hand, I could sort of maybe vaguely accept this

 

I wouldn't be happy about it, though. at all.

 

But look on the bright side: sanderson said there would be one big change the fans would not like. if they do that, it's definitely something the fans won't like. And it means layla aybara won't be perrin's wife and won't die on winternight.

As a more general principle, if they do that, they won't do anything else we really don't like

[Maximillion]

Also noticed in the Morraine teaser that Egwene also wakes from a bad dream, just as the 3 boys do.

 

 

 

 

[Borderlander]

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

As a more general principle, if they do that, they won't do anything else we really don't like

 

? If they do that, they will do anything!

[Maximillion]

1 hour ago, Borderlander said:

 

? If they do that, they will do anything!

 

Yeah, it might be one thing , but it is so big as to completely change the premise of the story - and why?  Because it must have been deemed politically incorrect for the Dragon to be a man. That tells me the entire series will be dripping with lectures about modern day insanity

...and just to be clear, doing this means the Dragon will likely be Egwene IMO, because there will be a backlash otherwise if it turns out she is not.

 

Anyway - rant over.

No for me so I will not be watching or following.

I'll wait till the first two seasons are done and I can check on whether they butchered the story before getting into it.

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Maximillion

[Agitel]

4 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

Yeah, it might be one thing , but it is so big as to completely change the premise of the story - and why?  Because it must have been deemed politically incorrect for the Dragon to be a man.  That tells me the entire series will be dripping with lectures about modern day insanity.

 

 

I wouldn't say that these tweaks mean the show will be patronizing in its messaging.

[Lance Mitchell]

17 minutes ago, Katherine said:

I. Hate. This. Egwene is one of my favorites and DOESN'T NEED THE PATTERN TO HELP HER ONE BIT!

Personally, with the amount of feats that Egwene accomplishes, I honestly would not mind if she is noted as being Taveren. That's a relatively minor change that actually helps you stomach so much that is connected to / with her. 

[Borderlander]

There is still a lot of wiggle room here, even with these alleged leaks and the clumsy marketing materials. 

 

Could be they really play up how remote the Two Rivers is, so that even though the villagers have all heard varying versions of the old stories about the Breaking and the Dragon Reborn, they have gotten so muddled over the years that no one in Emond's Field is really sure how it all works.

 

So when Moiraine shows up and sees there are three boys and one girl who maybe fit the other details of the prophecy, she knows right away that Egwene could not be the one, but she plays up the ambiguity and answers all their confused questions with vague half-truths in order to convince them all to leave town with her asap.

 

Hopefully, if this is the case, there would be a scene before too long (perhaps during their first night camping) where Egwene says something like, "Excuse me, Moiraine Sedai... but some of the old stories say the Dragon will be a man, because he's destined to go mad, isn't he? And he will Break the world all over again..."  To which Moiraine then explains to the E5 (and the newbie audience) that the DR will/must in fact be a man, officially ruling Egwene out while also providing some necessary exposition for the E5 and new viewers alike.

 

I don't love it, but it could still fit with all the details we have seen so far.

[SinisterDeath]

@Maximillion/ @Katherine
I hid your posts regarding the reddit possible but probably not leak from the person claiming to have watched the first season over on reddit.

Leaks, whether true or not, aren't allowed on DM. (Bring it up with Jason)
Speculation based officially released content, is allowed.

 

[DaddyFinn]

26 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

I'll wait till the first two seasons are done and I can check on whether they butchered the story before getting into it.

That is a good strategy. 

[TheDreadReader]

12 hours ago, Pandemonium said:

wonder why they are emphasizing Breen's spring out of all the possible towns

 

Using Whitebridge as an example.  It has the iconic bridge there and that limits the real locations that they would have available.   You would need a river or body of water.  You would need a big enough visual space that you can shoot film from multiple angles with good focus without catching more modern structures in the background   Or, you would need to do a lot of expensive CGI and post-production to remove modern elements.  Those locations may not be all that easy to find and the post-production costs may not be worth it early on.

 

Also, they may decide to save some of those iconic locations for later on in the series.   The thought may be we'll use this more obscure location now and later when we have people travelling we'll have some characters hit those more iconic locations if it makes sense to. 

 

 

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, Borderlander said:

 

I was always under the impression that souls were reborn as their original sex, and when the Dark One resurrected his minions as the opposite gender it was only possible because the Dark One himself got involved and made it happen. There's no evidence that Birgitta or Artur Hawkwing or any of the other Heroes of the Horn ever come back as the opposite sex, is there?

 

I am fairly certain that RJ is quoted as saying this is the case somewhere.  There is also the Amaresu "character".  If the pattern needs a female champion of the light then she is spun out.  If the pattern needs a male champion of the light then the male dragon is spun out. 

 

Obviously, that clashes with real world understandings that have developed and gained traction after RJ started writing.   

 

 

 

[DojoToad]

42 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

Obviously, that clashes with real world understandings that have developed and gained traction after RJ started writing.   

As this is a fantasy series, I'm not sure what real world has to do with it - unless you're talking 'woke' updating of the series...

[TheDreadReader]

18 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

As this is a fantasy series, I'm not sure what real world has to do with it - unless you're talking 'woke' updating of the series...

 

It is more of ... you have book lore, you have a potentially changed show lore, and then you have the large pool of fan perspectives.   All form a basic relation to the real world.  

 

Acknowledging that there is a contingent of fans that would like to see an updating of the lore based on other ways of looking at the world is just a reflection of reality.   It may not have any reflection in the show itself but it certainly has influenced the discourse about the show.   I don't see any reason not to acknowledge it.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[DojoToad]

17 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

It is more of ... you have book lore, you have a potentially changed show lore, and then you have the large pool of fan perspectives.   All form a basic relation to the real world.  

 

Acknowledging that there is a contingent of fans that would like to see an updating of the lore based on other ways of looking at the world is just a reflection of reality.   It may not have any reflection in the show itself but it certainly has influenced the discourse about the show.   I don't see any reason not to acknowledge it.

Got it.  So some folks want an updated/different version of the lore, and others will want it to remain the same.  Nice balancing act they will have to perform.

[CaddySedai]

Again the net result of this discussion seems to be the same as any other heh.

 

Some people hate the changes.

 

Some are tentatively ok with them (I daresay no one has explicitly stated they are all for them since we have yet to see how they are handled. Could be fine. Could be hot garbage.)

 

But really at the end of the day the battle lines have been drawn and this close to the series its impossible to change the show writing for season 1. Two may still have some wiggle in editing and reshoots depending on ACTUAL feedback.

 

The one thing I know for a fact they won't listen to is "I hate it. I didn't watch it but I hate it." Not watching will affect numbers but it would have to be a dramatic drop and as some have pointed out this show is being made big tent to get new fans and a good chunk of the legacy fanbase. But the legacy base was never going to be enough to support a show of this budget. So honestly the feedback they WILL listen to will come from those who watch it and provide criticism based on what was and what is. Only that can affect what will be.

 

That said I am not discounting some of your views to not watch it at all. It does send a message too! I just feel that the best chance we will have in tweaking the narrative will come from those who live the series.