Rumor from London Comic-Con

Guire · October 25, 2021

4 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

@GuireI moved your topic to this existing topic.

Sure. Just thought this thread had digressed into nit picking. Hadn't seen any mention of guy in London filming himself watching 15 minutes of show. The sound of Al Thor farm fight was intense. Just listening to key scenes and seeing guys face answered any doubts I had.

DaddyFinn · October 25, 2021

10 minutes ago, Guire said:

Sure. Just thought this thread had digressed into nit picking. Hadn't seen any mention of guy in London filming himself watching 15 minutes of show. The sound of Al Thor farm fight was intense. Just listening to key scenes and seeing guys face answered any doubts I had.

There is some discussion on this thread or some other. That reaction video was just amazing. Wheel of time theory is the channel's name. The sounds and his face said it all. It's gonna be gory and terrifying. The guy also posted a longer breakdown video on his channel and he was on WoT Up! Youtube channel. Check them out if you have not.

Edited October 25, 2021 by DaddyFinn

TheDreadReader · October 25, 2021

20 hours ago, Tim said:

I tend to think a lot of the changes from the books of which we are currently aware - making Moiraine the central character initially; placing more emphasis on Egwene from the outset - are precisely because the show will mimic the book in having a “white male saviour”. It’s a prophylactic action, a preemptive step to ward off or minimise criticism about this issue. The show can present Rand’s story within the context of a broader universe that gives considerable prominence to other types of characters. If done well, it effectively neutralises the issue rather than make it a constant talking point. If the viewers “trust” that the show is thoughtful about such issues they will be less inclined to question the central narrative arc.

Very good point.

Given that Dune is also in the news at the same time and that Dune is often criticized as a "White Savior" narrative, there's something of a cultural moment going on with that kind of question. Personally, I don't think that Dune has that problem except on the most surface level. The core question in Dune, to me, is about not trusting your heroes to have solutions that you would ultimately agree with or want to be a part of. In Dune's case, the hero launches what amounts to an interplanetary genocide because he can't find another way to solve what he sees as humanity's issues.

You can see the same dynamic at play in the Wheel of Time with Rand but it gets resolved differently when Rand reaches the mountaintop. It makes for a good contrast between the two books/series. (I like to think of two books where there are obvious influences and parallels between them as being in a friendly conversation with each other.)

I see the writers changing some of Egwene's early story beats to add a degree of balance to the series but I truly don't see any reason to think that they are going to significantly the alter the basic structure of the story in that way. At worst, I think they make her tav'veren. That wouldn't bother me much because I think of a lot the arguments over that amount to a lot of distinctions without a whole lot of difference between them but, certainly that can be a jarring change for some.

There are some potential positives to raising Egwene up a little early as it can lay the foundation for filing the rough edges off the gender relations to make them a little less jarring than some of them are on the page. Less stern glares and more well rounded relationships.

Edited October 25, 2021 by TheDreadReader

Canukistani · October 29, 2021

Okay, switch things up here.

4 people. 3 are wearing thick winter coats. 1 is not wearing a coat at all.

"One of you four is warm" Still a true statement

Edited October 29, 2021 by Canukistani

TheMountain · October 29, 2021

1 hour ago, Canukistani said:

Okay, switch things up here.

4 people. 3 are wearing thick winter coats. 1 is not wearing a coat at all.

"One of you four is warm" Still a true statement

The sky is either blue or pink. See? I can do that too lol.

Doesn't mean it makes sense to say it.

The "Aes Sedai truth" reasoning falls apart when you consider that literally everybody in Randland knows that the Dragon Reborn is male. The Creator, the Dark One, the Dragon Reborn... they are the closest thing to religion in that world. And no, the Two Rivers isn't some isolated uncontacted tribe in the middle of the Amazon rainforest. They have contact with the outside world by way of other people, albeit severely limited. They are also descended from Manetheren.

Part of the reason the Dragon is so dangerous is that he can rally tens of thousands to his name. He is also greatly feared because of the taint on Saidin only affecting male channelers. Will he save the world, or destroy it? Etc...

Removing that awareness is a massive change to the lore and has ripple effects throughout the story/worldbuilding.

Edited October 29, 2021 by TheMountain

Maximillion · October 29, 2021

6 hours ago, TheMountain said:

The sky is either blue or pink. See? I can do that too lol.

Doesn't mean it makes sense to say it.

The "Aes Sedai truth" reasoning falls apart when you consider that literally everybody in Randland knows that the Dragon Reborn is male. The Creator, the Dark One, the Dragon Reborn... they are the closest thing to religion in that world. And no, the Two Rivers isn't some isolated uncontacted tribe in the middle of the Amazon rainforest. They have contact with the outside world by way of other people, albeit severely limited. They are also descended from Manetheren.

Part of the reason the Dragon is so dangerous is that he can rally tens of thousands to his name. He is also greatly feared because of the taint on Saidin only affecting male channelers. Will he save the world, or destroy it? Etc...

Removing that awareness is a massive change to the lore and has ripple effects throughout the story/worldbuilding.

Exactly - the so called Aes Sedai trickery narrative would be like Morraine rocking up and saying, all mysteriously, '3 of you 5 are men'. The response it would illicit would be laughter or 'Yeah, no sh*t Sherlock'.

It's a ridiculous break from the entire lore of the world that the story is based upon. In fact, in the trailer, when Mat says 'Have you fully lost your mind' after Morraine says '1 of you 5', I did actually laugh. It felt like comedy to me, having read the books. I could imagine Mat thinking. wtf, why is she including Egwene and Nynaeve??? I am sure that is not what they were going for, though.

This is why I don;t think the whole '1 in 5' thing is misdirection at all - for her to even say that, the entire lore of the world in the series can NOT be based on the Dragon being male and going crazy. That's a huge change.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Maximillion

Elder_Haman · October 29, 2021

26 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

This is why I don;t think the whole '1 in 5' thing is misdirection at all - for her to even say that, the entire lore of the world in the series can NOT be based on the Dragon being male and going crazy. That's a huge change.

Let me ask you some questions...

(1) are you certain that this line about "it's one of you five (or four)" is actually in the show? [For a recent reference - in the trailer for Infinity War, Thanos says "Fun is not something one considers when balancing the universe, but this ... does put a smile on my face." That line is not in the movie.]

(2) are you certain that the line about "it's one of you five (or four)" being said in the context of identifying the Dragon Reborn and not some other context?

(3) why must the line be read to include Egwene and Nynaeve as being included as candidates for a possible Dragon Reborn? If the phrase "and it's one of you five (or four) can be interpreted two different ways - as it clearly can - why shouldn't we assume that it's an interpretation that doesn't completely break the Lore?

You - and the other folks who insist that Rafe is just trying to inject everything with politics - basically want me to assume bad faith on the part of the showrunner and people involved in the project. But I see no evidence of bad faith. Every single thing I have seen (with the clear and obvious exception of the marketing which has been baffling and feels pretty inept, IMO) leads me to believe the opposite. The commitment to making the show look and feel good is obvious. The music is great. The cinematography is great. The creatures and the CG is great. The colors are great. And even if you have a different opinion, you can't deny that this looks way better than most of the other fantasy shows on tv.

Given all that, you're going to have to give me more than a couple of Tweets announcing his feminism as evidence of this nefarious agenda to bastardize a work of fiction [that by the way was female forward when it was written in 1990] that holds up pretty well on its own.

Katherine · October 29, 2021

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Let me ask you some questions...

(1) are you certain that this line about "it's one of you five (or four)" is actually in the show? [For a recent reference - in the trailer for Infinity War, Thanos says "Fun is not something one considers when balancing the universe, but this ... does put a smile on my face." That line is not in the movie.]

(2) are you certain that the line about "it's one of you five (or four)" being said in the context of identifying the Dragon Reborn and not some other context?

(3) why must the line be read to include Egwene and Nynaeve as being included as candidates for a possible Dragon Reborn? If the phrase "and it's one of you five (or four) can be interpreted two different ways - as it clearly can - why shouldn't we assume that it's an interpretation that doesn't completely break the Lore?

You - and the other folks who insist that Rafe is just trying to inject everything with politics - basically want me to assume bad faith on the part of the showrunner and people involved in the project. But I see no evidence of bad faith. Every single thing I have seen (with the clear and obvious exception of the marketing which has been baffling and feels pretty inept, IMO) leads me to believe the opposite. The commitment to making the show look and feel good is obvious. The music is great. The cinematography is great. The creatures and the CG is great. The colors are great. And even if you have a different opinion, you can't deny that this looks way better than most of the other fantasy shows on tv.

Given all that, you're going to have to give me more than a couple of Tweets announcing his feminism as evidence of this nefarious agenda to bastardize a work of fiction [that by the way was female forward when it was written in 1990] that holds up pretty well on its own.

So I have been worried about changes...... made that pretty clear. However, this "one of you 5" line doesn't bother me as much now.

First of all, the entire quote (in the trailer) is "the dark one is rising, but there is one who can stand against him. And it is one of you."

She does not day "One of you is the dragon reborn".

In the end they all stand against the Dark One.

So could this indicate that the show is changing lore. Well, yes it does.

But I think the simpliest explaination is that the EF5 need to leave with Moraine and that is the easiest way to do it in the show.

But I get the worry. I don't think it is bad faith.... but a justified worry based on other characters being changed and ruined to fit political narrative.

I

Elder_Haman · October 29, 2021

6 minutes ago, Katherine said:

based on other characters being changed and ruined to fit political narrative.

Which characters do you feel have been changed and ruined to fit a narrative? (Other than the race of the actor. My feeling about the casting is that I will not prejudge an actor's performance based on whether or not that actor has a skin tone that matches my head canon. I also do not believe that the supposed homogeneity of the Two Rivers is matters to the overall story and do not believe that casting people of different skin tones makes a dramatic change.)

king of nowhere · October 29, 2021

by the way, "one of you can stand against the DO" is more or less what moiraine actually says to the party in the book.

she never said "one of you is the dragon". she was always very vague in "the DO fears one of you".

ok, genre savy readers could figure out rand was the dragon from the beginning.. but moiraine is being more faithful to the book than we give her credit for

Elder_Haman · October 29, 2021

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

by the way, "one of you can stand against the DO" is more or less what moiraine actually says to the party in the book.

she never said "one of you is the dragon". she was always very vague in "the DO fears one of you".

ok, genre savy readers could figure out rand was the dragon from the beginning.. but moiraine is being more faithful to the book than we give her credit for

This is a very good point.

TheDreadReader · October 29, 2021

I feel pretty confident in saying that the change from the 4 to the 5 appears only in the trailer and is a little deceptive. Deceptive in an understandable way because they are clearly highlighting 5 villagers from the two rivers in the marketing it makes more logical sense to include all 5 in the trailer dialogue whereas the show dialogue can safely remain 4. I think Lorne(?) from unraveling the pattern was making that point on the Dusty Wheel livestream the other day too.

Basic set theory would make all these statements evaluate as true (without depending on any possible changes to the source material).

The DR is in the Westlands.

The DR is in the Two Rivers.

The DR is here in the village.

The DR is here standing in front of me in a group of 4.

The DR is one of you five people highlighted in the marketing.

.

Moreover, in the trailer I am pretty sure that we have a shot of the 4 (Egwene, Mat, Perrin, and Rand) standing with Moiraine and Lan that matches up with reports from the London comic con clips for when and how the 4 line is used in context. It seems pretty clear, to me anyway, that she's just trying to herd the cats out of the village and not making a huge lore change.

Maximillion · October 29, 2021

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Let me ask you some questions...

(1) are you certain that this line about "it's one of you five (or four)" is actually in the show? [For a recent reference - in the trailer for Infinity War, Thanos says "Fun is not something one considers when balancing the universe, but this ... does put a smile on my face." That line is not in the movie.]

(2) are you certain that the line about "it's one of you five (or four)" being said in the context of identifying the Dragon Reborn and not some other context?

(3) why must the line be read to include Egwene and Nynaeve as being included as candidates for a possible Dragon Reborn? If the phrase "and it's one of you five (or four) can be interpreted two different ways - as it clearly can - why shouldn't we assume that it's an interpretation that doesn't completely break the Lore?

You - and the other folks who insist that Rafe is just trying to inject everything with politics - basically want me to assume bad faith on the part of the showrunner and people involved in the project. But I see no evidence of bad faith. Every single thing I have seen (with the clear and obvious exception of the marketing which has been baffling and feels pretty inept, IMO) leads me to believe the opposite. The commitment to making the show look and feel good is obvious. The music is great. The cinematography is great. The creatures and the CG is great. The colors are great. And even if you have a different opinion, you can't deny that this looks way better than most of the other fantasy shows on tv.

Given all that, you're going to have to give me more than a couple of Tweets announcing his feminism as evidence of this nefarious agenda to bastardize a work of fiction [that by the way was female forward when it was written in 1990] that holds up pretty well on its own.

1) No, I can't be as the first episode has not aired. We can only go on what is being shown in the trailers at this point

2) same as 1

3) Come on, it's pretty clear that 'The Dark One is waking but there will be one who can stand against him - and it's one of the five of you' is a direct reference to the DR. In the lore in the books, it would be at this point where they would all look strangely at Morraine and say ' what are you talking about, two of us are women'. Morraines line only works if the series is going to CHANGE the lore so that none of the main characters would ever conceive the DR to be a man only...and if that is the case it means the dangers of the taint on the male half of the OP is also a less important element of the story - it just becomes a 'men are bad if they wield any power' narrative, not the double edged sword of the whole DR narrative in the books.

GoT had great cinematography, music great, creatures great, CGI great... it was a high production and high quality show, but they butchered it and ended it as a complete mess - as soon as it had grabbed hold as a major vehicle for reaching the masses.

I will freely admit to being a skeptic when it comes to TV shows now - there has been too much social lecturing in most every show these days for me to assume they are just going to tell the story in the best way possible. I don't believe they will - but I am open to being surprised. That is why I will wait a while before watching any of it to get the feedback first.

I was hopeful WoT would not become just another vehicle for pushing social messaging, then I read the backstory to the show being commissioned and have seen the trailers and teasers. I am far far less hopeful now, but not without hope. I don't know whether my lack of confidence is warranted or not, I guess I will just have to wait to see like everyone else.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Maximillion

Elder_Haman · October 29, 2021

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

it's pretty clear that 'The Dark One is waking but there will be one who can stand against him - and it's one of the five of you' is a direct reference to the DR.

And there's the logical fallacy. The phrase is 'one who can stand against him'. A good number of people in Randland think that the Dragon Reborn is the Dark One or his agent. Without knowing the context, you can't tell that this phrase references the Dragon.

You're falling for Aes Sedai misdirection by thinking that because something is "pretty clear" that it is true. Again, I'll put money on the fact that it will be very clear that the Dragon Reborn is a male channeler.

Maximillion · October 29, 2021

12 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

And there's the logical fallacy. The phrase is 'one who can stand against him'. A good number of people in Randland think that the Dragon Reborn is the Dark One or his agent. Without knowing the context, you can't tell that this phrase references the Dragon.

You're falling for Aes Sedai misdirection by thinking that because something is "pretty clear" that it is true. Again, I'll put money on the fact that it will be very clear that the Dragon Reborn is a male channeler.

We'll agree to disagree.

I think it's crystal clear that the 5 are being told any one of them could be the DR.

Morraine's words make no sense at all - it's not trickery it would be stupidity - if the lore of the land, in the series, was that the DR was a male. The only way it makes sense is if the two women in the group of five actually believe they could be the DR.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Maximillion

Elder_Haman · October 29, 2021

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

I think it's crystal clear that the 5 are being told any one of them could be the DR.

Aes Sedai would eat you alive.

TheDreadReader · October 29, 2021

17 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

3) Come on, it's pretty clear that 'The Dark One is waking but there will be one who can stand against him - and it's one of the five of you' is a direct reference to the DR. In the lore in the books, it would be at this point where they would all look strangely at Morraine and say ' what are you talking about, two of us are women'. Morraines line only works if the series is going to CHANGE the lore so that none of the main characters would ever conceive the DR to be a man only...and if that is the case it means the dangers of the taint on the male half of the OP is also a less important element of the story - it just becomes a 'men are bad if they wield any power' narrative, not the double edged sword of the whole DR narrative in the books.

It is also pretty firmly established book lore that the Two Rivers was specifically targeted by the Shadow before without the Dragon being present. And, contextually that targeting is referenced pretty dramatically within the first few chapters of the first book. It is even referenced in the trailer with the "Old Blood" line of Moiraine's.

Maximillion · October 29, 2021

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Aes Sedai would eat you alive.

Not Morraine - she fails the logic test in the series - IF the DR can only be a man in the lore in the series.?

That is why I found Mat's 'response' to Morraine's line to be comical. It was like 'come again???' I imagined him putting his arm around Morraine's shoulder and taking her to one side, saying ' Now look, Morraine, you might not know this... I know you're a great Aes Sedai and all... but it's pretty common knowledge that the DR will be a man.. how about you stop winding up Egwene and Nyneave, ok?'.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Maximillion

Elder_Haman · October 29, 2021

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

Not Morraine - she fails the logic test in the series - IF the DR can only be a man in the lore in the series.?

Only she didn't say what you keep insisting she said.

Maximillion · October 29, 2021

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Only she didn't say what you keep insisting she said.

This is what she said in the trailer:

'The Dark One is waking but there will be one who can stand against him - and it's one of the five of you'

Explain how she is not talking about the DR. I don't get how?

Elder_Haman · October 29, 2021

Just now, Maximillion said:

This is what she said in the trailer:

'The Dark One is waking but there will be one who can stand against him - and it's one of the five of you'

Explain how she is not talking about the DR. I don't get how?

Is the Dragon Reborn the only person who can stand against the Dark One?

Maximillion · October 29, 2021

8 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Is the Dragon Reborn the only person who can stand against the Dark One?

I get where you are going, but still doesn't make sense.

...there will be one who can stand against him - and it's one of the five of you

Not two, or three.. 'one'.

If she is not talking about the DR then the DR is not one of the five at all.

If that line is not in the actual show, then it's a bait and switch used to avoid turning women off the show and to avoid criticism on social media.

But I think it WILL be in the show - and that means there is no lore in the show that says the DR has to be male.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Maximillion

Elder_Haman · October 29, 2021

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

If she is not talking about the DR then the DR is not one of the five at all.

Correct.

So in addressing the four/five of them, she is saying two things that are simultaneously true:

One of the five of you is the DR (assuming this is actually from the show and isn't mashed up audio of things said in some other context); AND
One of the five of you is a person who can stand up to the Dark One but isn't the Dragon Reborn.

One doesn't necessarily exclude the other. Both can be true. And yet, she can use it to manipulate all of them into doing what she wants (i.e. leaving the Two Rivers).

Maximillion · October 29, 2021

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Correct.

So in addressing the four/five of them, she is saying two things that are simultaneously true:

One of the five of you is the DR (assuming this is actually from the show and isn't mashed up audio of things said in some other context); AND

One of the five of you is a person who can stand up to the Dark One but isn't the Dragon Reborn.

One doesn't necessarily exclude the other. Both can be true. And yet, she can use it to manipulate all of them into doing what she wants (i.e. leaving the Two Rivers).

Re-read the sentence. It's not two sentences.

one person can stand against him and it's one of the five of you.

There is only one thing/person referenced in this sentence.

You are at the stage where you are reaching FAR further than anyone who simply concludes that Rafe has changed the lore to make the DR either male or female.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Maximillion

Elder_Haman · October 29, 2021

6 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Re-read the sentence. It's not two sentences.

one person can stand against him and it's one of the five of you.

There is only one thing/person referenced in this sentence.

You are at the stage where you are reaching FAR further than anyone who simply concludes that Rafe has changed the lore to make the DR either male or female.

She doesn't say "only one person can stand against him." You just don't seem to understand that a sentence can have more than one interpretation.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Elder_Haman

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