full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, Joe B said:

I can't believe they didn't highlight Hu and Tad in the show. They did my boys wrong!

Who?

 

*googles*
Ah, two forgettable stable boys.

[Agitel]

6 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Who?

 

*googles*
Ah, two forgettable stable boys.

 

*sputters*

 

Forgettable? FORGETTABLE?! WOT ain't WOT without Hu and Tad.

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, Agitel said:

 

*sputters*

 

Forgettable? FORGETTABLE?! WOT ain't WOT without Hu and Tad.

Are they supposed to be WoT's Bill and Ted? Maybe they angered Bella in the last turning, so she spun them out? ? 

[AshennaSedai]

Okay so full disclosure, I know quite a bit about the books but a lot of that information was gleaned second hand from my dad because I couldn't get past Eye of the World and the world building.

 

However with that said, there was only one change thus far (and I have watched all 3 existing episodes) that bothers me..... Leila.

 

Even if they expand on her character and it does have impact down the line like many are positing, it was highly unnecessary to fridge someone to explain Perrin's broodiness.  The trolloc attack alone should have been sufficient enough to explain his pensiveness and his thoughtfulness. His trauma. There was absolutely no need to have him "accidentally" kill his wife, Darkfriend or no.

 

There are a *lot* of changes I can jive with especially since my knowledge is not as detailed as some folks here. I can jive with it not being a coming of age story as, to me, it is still very much epic fantasy. I can jive with Nynaeve getting dragged off as she was still very much self-sufficient. I still can't get past Leila.

 

Quote

The 4 Ta'Veren thing... making Egwene a potential Dragon.  First, I'll say was Egwene not a Ta'Veren,  apparently not.  But....  Throwing her into the dragon mix is troublesome...   First off, Egwene is one of if not the most bad ass character by the end.  I really dislike the idea that one needs to increase her early revelance with this potential.  

 

I thought the same thing. Egwene being Ta'Veren but my dad told me it was only the boys in the books. With this in mind and how audiences view media now as opposed to when Wheel of Time was being published, this change is something I am fine with. With a lot of the things that Egwene did, I would much rather small details like this happen and it be something that made her special instead of being all about the boys. This was very much a weakness in the original book series.

 

I highly doubt Egwene is the Dragon Reborn. I think that was a detail meant for people who don't know the books.

[AshennaSedai]

39 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

This “turning” has robbed Egwene of any of her naivety that made her charming in the early books. Mo took her out of the TR along with the boys for a very simple reason - her ability to channel. And that was more than enough. And her reaction in the books was perfect: “I’m going to be Aes Sedai!” and “Rand - you can be my warder!” For whatever reason - Rafe and the writers room robbed her of that. And all for “modern sensibilities.” Tough to understand. 

 

And yet, Moiraine is still teaching her how to channel. I don't feel like the loss of naivety really is robbing her quite to the extent you're positing. All of the characters have lost that naivety because they're  not telling a coming of age story but they're still ignorant to a lot of the happenings of the outside world. They still have a lot of learning to be doing even if they are already at adulthood.

[Windigo]

28 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

This “turning” has robbed Egwene of any of her naivety that made her charming in the early books. Mo took her out of the TR along with the boys for a very simple reason - her ability to channel. And that was more than enough. And her reaction in the books was perfect: “I’m going to be Aes Sedai!” and “Rand - you can be my warder!” For whatever reason - Rafe and the writers room robbed her of that. And all for “modern sensibilities.” Tough to understand. 

I have since episode 3 re-read the beginning of EoTW.  While I am not a fan of the change to Rand and Egwene's  relationship, the point of ageing up or whatever or for thinking there could not be the same connection, love and loss from a non-sexual childhood love is demeaning IMO. The went from one trope of bring along the girl because she is important later,  to another type of trope the girl is important because she is involved sexually with one of the male characters. 
I do like the change from kind of a bossy silly "little girl" to a determined female, though I think they could have done better to have combined her naivety and  increase her importance early on.
 
Re-reading the part in the stable where she insists on joining them to be in on the adventure, and refused to even listen to them on the reasons was a good reminder of how I had forgotten some of the earlier character portrayals in the first book. 

[WheelofJuke]

9 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

*sputters*

 

Forgettable? FORGETTABLE?! WOT ain't WOT without Hu and Tad.

 

8 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Are they supposed to be WoT's Bill and Ted? Maybe they angered Bella in the last turning, so she spun them out? ? 

They are obviously saving the introduction of these central fan-faves for the inevitable spin-off The Adventures of Hu & Tad.

 

 

[AshennaSedai]

Quote

The went from one trope of bring along the girl because she is important later,  to another type of trope the girl is important because she is involved sexually with one of the male characters. 

 

Except that's not why she was brought along at all? If she is a Ta'Veren, that subverts that incredibly well.

[DaddyFinn]

22 minutes ago, AshennaSedai said:

 

Except that's not why she was brought along at all? If she is a Ta'Veren, that subverts that incredibly well.

Or if she's the Dragon. Has nothing to do with banging Rand

[Gothic Flame]

49 minutes ago, AshennaSedai said:

And yet, Moiraine is still teaching her how to channel. I don't feel like the loss of naivety really is robbing her quite to the extent you're positing.

Seeing her go from a naif and  progress to the powerful woman she becomes..(at least that's how it is in the books) should be something that most should want.

[DojoToad]

30 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Seeing her go from a naif and  progress to the powerful woman she becomes..(at least that's how it is in the books) should be something that most should want.

Absolutely.  I think Moiraine brought her along because she knew her strength in the power.  The strong person was already in place and developed during her travels and trials.

[AshennaSedai]

39 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Seeing her go from a naif and  progress to the powerful woman she becomes..(at least that's how it is in the books) should be something that most should want.

 

She doesn't need to be entirely naive to go through that journey. Emond's Field is still very much separated from the happenings of the world. They hear rumors but they haven't actually *seen* or *experienced* any of that. The reasoning behind her going along doesn't change any of that.

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, Beidomon said:

This “turning” has robbed Egwene of any of her naivety that made her charming in the early books. Mo took her out of the TR along with the boys for a very simple reason - her ability to channel. And that was more than enough. And her reaction in the books was perfect: “I’m going to be Aes Sedai!” and “Rand - you can be my warder!” For whatever reason - Rafe and the writers room robbed her of that.

Have they though? Where do you see Egwene having been 'robbed' of her naivety? She's only learned that she can channel just before having been separated from Rand. She clearly likes that and idolizes Moiraine. And there's every reason to think that they will be reunited. Why can't they still have the "I'm going to be Aes Sedai and you can be my warder!" moment? 

 

I understand how the degendering thing and the ta'veren thing mess with the lore. I don't think it's a necessary change. But at the end of the day, neither of them does anything to change the characters or their arcs.

[Joe B]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Have they though? Where do you see Egwene having been 'robbed' of her naivety? She's only learned that she can channel just before having been separated from Rand. She clearly likes that and idolizes Moiraine. And there's every reason to think that they will be reunited. Why can't they still have the "I'm going to be Aes Sedai and you can be my warder!" moment? 

 

I understand how the degendering thing and the ta'veren thing mess with the lore. I don't think it's a necessary change. But at the end of the day, neither of them does anything to change the characters or their arcs.

We also lose Egwene ditching the braid. It doesn't change the lore or the story, but to ME, it is a part of her development in the books. It further underlines her break from the Two Rivers. The scene is not needed for the show, and perhaps she will let her hair loose down the line.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Joe B said:

We also lose Egwene ditching the braid.

Yeah, but this is something that would have felt rushed from a character standpoint. I fully see this happening elsewhere.

[Agitel]

42 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yeah, but this is something that would have felt rushed from a character standpoint. I fully see this happening elsewhere.

 

If not at some other point mid-season, I could see it when she finally joins the WT.

[DaddyFinn]

Give the show some time before complaining about the stuff that's missing at this point

[AshennaSedai]

On 11/19/2021 at 1:44 AM, CaddySedai said:

I do want to point something out

 

If anything the series has already successfully opened up discussion about NEW WoT content - something we have not had on DM in years. 

 

New members are joining to talk about it with us. 

 

I already view it as a success. Now to see if it has legs. 

Hi! New member here and I agree!

 

I have been so happy we've been able to have some amazing nuanced discussions surrounding the changes from book to show.

 

I hope it has legs as well because I think if they're given time, it will grow into something wonderful. It won't be perfect but I think it can be something positive.

Edited November 23, 2021 by AshennaSedai
Grammar/Spelling

[Harad the White]

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

That wasn’t me who said that!

Sorry, it was Liberty Dog in a response to you. Unfortunately, the results of the search function don't allow quoting.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

Sorry, it was Liberty Dog in a response to you. Unfortunately, the results of the search function don't allow quoting.

No worries!

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, Windigo said:

I have since episode 3 re-read the beginning of EoTW.  While I am not a fan of the change to Rand and Egwene's  relationship, the point of ageing up or whatever or for thinking there could not be the same connection, love and loss from a non-sexual childhood love is demeaning IMO. The went from one trope of bring along the girl because she is important later,  to another type of trope the girl is important because she is involved sexually with one of the male characters. 
I do like the change from kind of a bossy silly "little girl" to a determined female, though I think they could have done better to have combined her naivety and  increase her importance early on.
 
Re-reading the part in the stable where she insists on joining them to be in on the adventure, and refused to even listen to them on the reasons was a good reminder of how I had forgotten some of the earlier character portrayals in the first book. 

Ok this idea that the characters have been “aged up” is nonsensical. In the books the 3 boys are nearly 20 and Egwene is 17, I imagine they should all know quite a lot more about the birds and the bees then they are portrayed in the books, talk to most people who grow up around farms and in small villages and they where very aware of sex by the time they where teenagers. 
 

I always felt Robert Jordan wrote them far to naieve for there age, especially given I was 16 when I read the books and had a sexual relationship with my girlfriend at the time (age of consent in uk is 16). 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Sir_Charrid

[swollymammoth]

8 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I always felt Robert Jordan wrote them far to naieve for there age, especially given I was 16 when I read the books and had a sexual relationship with my girlfriend at the time (age of consent in uk is 16). 

Round of applause for this guy haha 

 

Anyway, Rafe has come out and said that he aged of the characters, but honestly that shouldn't even matter. As you say, the Emond's Fielders are extremely naive, and I think most of that comes from the fact that they're from a backwater small town in the middle of freaking nowhere. However, I do with the show leaned into their naivety a little more. They just kind of seem like normal 20 somethings rather than woolheaded sheepherders. 

[MasterAblar]

6 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Ok this idea that the characters have been “aged up” is nonsensical. In the books the 3 boys are nearly 20 and Egwene is 17, I imagine they should all know quite a lot more about the birds and the bees then they are portrayed in the books, talk to most people who grow up around farms and in small villages and they where very aware of sex by the time they where teenagers. 
 

I always felt Robert Jordan wrote them far to naieve for there age, especially given I was 16 when I read the books and had a sexual relationship with my girlfriend at the time (age of consent in uk is 16). 

 

I think they were mature in some ways, but in a lot of ways they kind of overgrown kids. That said their isolation from the world and therefore naievety about it played a big role in that. Also the Two Rivers was a rather conservative place.

[Agitel]

I don't think there's anything to show they don't know about the birds and the bees. They seem quite aware of it. They all come from a region with very traditional values, and while it might boggle the minds of people today, people actually did largely live by them at one point relatively successfully. There's a few references that some unmarried Two Rivers young uns get caught together doing the whole birds and the bees thing, but the ones who are caught get sorted out by the Women's Circle.

[Windigo]

15 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Ok this idea that the characters have been “aged up” is nonsensical. In the books the 3 boys are nearly 20 and Egwene is 17, I imagine they should all know quite a lot more about the birds and the bees then they are portrayed in the books, talk to most people who grow up around farms and in small villages and they where very aware of sex by the time they where teenagers. 
 

I always felt Robert Jordan wrote them far to naieve for there age, especially given I was 16 when I read the books and had a sexual relationship with my girlfriend at the time (age of consent in uk is 16). 

I have mentioned this silly aged up thing multiple times. 
Though the naivety of them at 17-20   does match more to my generation, (and probably R.J's) and my  life at that age in a remote backwater town.  Consider if there are 20-30 people in your age group that you have always known, and then almost 1/2 are related, not much opportunity for romance until you leave town.