tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[Mirefox]

43 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

This is what Marvel used to call a no-prize; explaining why one of their screw ups wasn't actually a screw up. Good job.

The white knighting that some of them do for Rafe freaking Judkins is unreal.  Rafe could kill off Rand in the next season and some people here will be explaining why it was the right move and how Rafe has some mater plan.  They think he is Poirot, weaving together every tiny detail into some exquisitely-crafted narrative.  Remember, Rafe is the guy who has, in interviews, said things like Rand doesn’t have the most chapters or words in the books (demonstrably false) or that he had to have so many fake deaths this season so there will be a bigger impact in the future when he kills a character who doesn’t die in the books (What?!?).  That’s right, he wants to cry wolf a dozen times so when he “really means it” we feel the impact.  And some people say every tiny detail is part of his master plan.  He’s not Poirot, he’s Clouseau, bumbling his way around something he has no right to be involved in.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Mirefox

[flinn]

21 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

I do believe this was an intentional change and not a subtitling error as they have used the term The Dragon Reborn like this in interviews.  But in the grand scheme of things this seems to be on the nitpicky side of things.

 

 The Creator makes the world, seals the DO into his prison where is influence is next to nothing, just enough to give the people free will and make choices. Thousands of years of peace and tranquility, learning and growing. War is not even a thing. Someone looking for more knowledge/power discovers the prison, drills into it and opens it so the DO is touching the world. They have to learn war, they have to learn how to fight and survive. One person stands above the rest, leads their armies, fights the shadow, they call him the Dragon (a name a honorific). He leads an attack against the DO at the bore, he manages to force the DO back into his prison and places and patch upon the seal. The DO counterstrokes by tainting saidin. The men go mad and destroy the world. While this is taking place, people begin to have foretellings. They tell of the time when the patch weakens and the DO once again is touching the world and when that happens the Dragon will be reborn to save or destroy the world.

 

 Thousands of years pass by, scraps of knowledge and legends are all that remain, the prophecies survive and the Dragon being reborn is known. When the time comes the Dragon is reborn and once again leads the armies and people of the world against the fight against the DO. Using the knowledge he has gained from his current life AND his past life, he learns how to create the perfect seal and seals off the DO.

 

Peace comes once again to the world. War is forgotten, tranquility, learning, arts, and growth over the next few thousand years. There are no prophecies or legends that remain from the time before, the DO is forgotten. After five thousand years.. someone finds the seal to the DOs prison, in pursuit of knowledge and power they drill into the hole and release the DO to touch the world. They have to learn war, they have to learn how to fight and survive, and during this, one person stands out, leading the armies of the worlds, leading the fight against the shadow, and they call him the Dragon...

 

 

rinse wash and repeat... rinse wash and repeat.

 

 now, you say "its nitpicky" or blow it off like its not really a big deal, but there is a reason the Wheel of Time was one of the greatest series ever written and it isnt just because "its a good story". The details, the physics, the rules, the worldbuilding so on and so forth....

 

Walking Dead was an entertaining story, had a good premise, but the writing was lazy and mostly stupid and 17 million viewers watched it.

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, flinn said:

 

 The Creator makes the world, seals the DO into his prison where is influence is next to nothing, just enough to give the people free will and make choices. Thousands of years of peace and tranquility, learning and growing. War is not even a thing. Someone looking for more knowledge/power discovers the prison, drills into it and opens it so the DO is touching the world. They have to learn war, they have to learn how to fight and survive. One person stands above the rest, leads their armies, fights the shadow, they call him the Dragon (a name a honorific). He leads an attack against the DO at the bore, he manages to force the DO back into his prison and places and patch upon the seal. The DO counterstrokes by tainting saidin. The men go mad and destroy the world. While this is taking place, people begin to have foretellings. They tell of the time when the patch weakens and the DO once again is touching the world and when that happens the Dragon will be reborn to save or destroy the world.

 

 Thousands of years pass by, scraps of knowledge and legends are all that remain, the prophecies survive and the Dragon being reborn is known. When the time comes the Dragon is reborn and once again leads the armies and people of the world against the fight against the DO. Using the knowledge he has gained from his current life AND his past life, he learns how to create the perfect seal and seals off the DO.

 

Peace comes once again to the world. War is forgotten, tranquility, learning, arts, and growth over the next few thousand years. There are no prophecies or legends that remain from the time before, the DO is forgotten. After five thousand years.. someone finds the seal to the DOs prison, in pursuit of knowledge and power they drill into the hole and release the DO to touch the world. They have to learn war, they have to learn how to fight and survive, and during this, one person stands out, leading the armies of the worlds, leading the fight against the shadow, and they call him the Dragon...

 

 

rinse wash and repeat... rinse wash and repeat.

 

 now, you say "its nitpicky" or blow it off like its not really a big deal, but there is a reason the Wheel of Time was one of the greatest series ever written and it isnt just because "its a good story". The details, the physics, the rules, the worldbuilding so on and so forth....

 

Walking Dead was an entertaining story, had a good premise, but the writing was lazy and mostly stupid and 17 million viewers watched it.

How does naming LTT "Dragon Reborn" rather than "Dragon" change any of that?  It is certainly possible that the Dragon's soul is only spun out in the 2nd and 3rd ages and is completely forgotten for every other age but I don't believe that is confirmed one way or another. 

[Skipp]

11 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

The white knighting that some of them do for Rafe freaking Judkins is unreal.  Rafe could kill off Rand in the next season and some people here will be explaining why it was the right move and how Rafe has some mater plan.  They think he is Poirot, weaving together every tiny detail into some exquisitely-crafted narrative.  Remember, Rafe is the guy who has, in interviews, said things like Rand doesn’t have the most chapters or words in the books (demonstrably false) or that he had to have so many fake deaths this season so there will be a bigger impact in the future when he kills a character who doesn’t die in the books (What?!?).  That’s right, he wants to cry wolf a dozen times so when he “really means it” we feel the impact.  And some people say every tiny detail is part of his master plan.  He’s not Poirot, he’s Clouseau, bumbling his way around something he has no right to be involved in.

 

Well this is just dismissive.  RJ2 is not a perfect showrunner and I have voiced plenty of complaints that I hope they address and improve going forward.  But I do certainly tend to prefer to focus on the things that I enjoy rather than the things I don't.  Hate just exhausts me.

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, flinn said:

roll my eyes. Nevermind, I see you are one of the "defend anything the show does no matter what" people.

 

are you a writer for the show or getting paid?

Just a massive fan of The Wheel of Time.  I picked it up in the late 90's and read it just about every year or two.

 

As I said above I just prefer to focus on the things that I enjoy rather than not. While I am extremely excited about the show and really enjoyed the first season I do think there is a lot they can improve on.  Hopefully Covid won't affect production nearly as much this time around.

 

But if the quality of the show stay about where it was before episode 8 I would still continue to be enjoy it.

[WoTwasThat]

I do think the irrational sunshine pumping is greater on this board than the irrational negativity. But I’m probably biased because I’m more on the negative side. ?

 

A few people on the sunshine team do seem to almost make a game of it: “how can we justify this latest change?”

[Arie]

Let's remain on topic. ? Thanks!

[VooDooNut]

17 minutes ago, flinn said:

 

 The Creator makes the world, seals the DO into his prison where is influence is next to nothing, just enough to give the people free will and make choices. Thousands of years of peace and tranquility, learning and growing. War is not even a thing. Someone looking for more knowledge/power discovers the prison, drills into it and opens it so the DO is touching the world. They have to learn war, they have to learn how to fight and survive. One person stands above the rest, leads their armies, fights the shadow, they call him the Dragon (a name a honorific). He leads an attack against the DO at the bore, he manages to force the DO back into his prison and places and patch upon the seal. The DO counterstrokes by tainting saidin. The men go mad and destroy the world. While this is taking place, people begin to have foretellings. They tell of the time when the patch weakens and the DO once again is touching the world and when that happens the Dragon will be reborn to save or destroy the world.

 

 Thousands of years pass by, scraps of knowledge and legends are all that remain, the prophecies survive and the Dragon being reborn is known. When the time comes the Dragon is reborn and once again leads the armies and people of the world against the fight against the DO. Using the knowledge he has gained from his current life AND his past life, he learns how to create the perfect seal and seals off the DO.

 

Peace comes once again to the world. War is forgotten, tranquility, learning, arts, and growth over the next few thousand years. There are no prophecies or legends that remain from the time before, the DO is forgotten. After five thousand years.. someone finds the seal to the DOs prison, in pursuit of knowledge and power they drill into the hole and release the DO to touch the world. They have to learn war, they have to learn how to fight and survive, and during this, one person stands out, leading the armies of the worlds, leading the fight against the shadow, and they call him the Dragon...

 

 

rinse wash and repeat... rinse wash and repeat.

 

 now, you say "its nitpicky" or blow it off like its not really a big deal, but there is a reason the Wheel of Time was one of the greatest series ever written and it isnt just because "its a good story". The details, the physics, the rules, the worldbuilding so on and so forth....

 

Walking Dead was an entertaining story, had a good premise, but the writing was lazy and mostly stupid and 17 million viewers watched it.

For what it's worth, I really enjoyed reading your description of the cyclical nature of the WOT. I disagree with the conclusion, but I also don't think calling LTT the "Dragon Reborn" conflicts with anything you said here. It's just another way of recognizing the role the dragon plays in the world of Randland ad infinitum.

Edited December 29, 2021 by VooDooNut
my Latin is a little rusty

[Skipp]

5 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

A few people on the sunshine team do seem to almost make a game of it: “how can we justify this latest change?”

I personally see it as approaching the change with an open mind.  Trying to figure out why a change was made and what implications it could mean later on in the series.  After looking at the change from this angle I can then decide whether I liked it or not but also with the caveat of changing my mind later depending on how the payoff lands.

 

An example of this is having Nynaeve and Egwene being part of the force to to destroy the trolloc army rather than Rand. Initially I thought it was a good idea to give Egwene/Nynaeve something to do in the climax.  In execution I loved that the changed allowed Rand to have mirror to a fight late in the series but left the Nynaeve and Egwene scenes were lacking. 

 

While I appreciated the effect of burning out I don't believe they highlighted the idea that the power is addictive and that is why Amalisa didn't release the power.  Ultimately while Egwene and Nynaeve contributed it didn't really amount for much aside from a second fakeout death for Nynaeve.  Perhaps they will play this out with a better landing in season 2.  Maybe something to do with Nynaeve's block.

 

 

[VooDooNut]

56 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I personally see it as approaching the change with an open mind.  Trying to figure out why a change was made and what implications it could mean later on in the series.  After looking at the change from this angle I can then decide whether I liked it or not but also with the caveat of changing my mind later depending on how the payoff lands.

 

An example of this is having Nynaeve and Egwene being part of the force to to destroy the trolloc army rather than Rand. Initially I thought it was a good idea to give Egwene/Nynaeve something to do in the climax.  In execution I loved that the changed allowed Rand to have mirror to a fight late in the series but left the Nynaeve and Egwene scenes were lacking. 

 

While I appreciated the effect of burning out I don't believe they highlighted the idea that the power is addictive and that is why Amalisa didn't release the power.  Ultimately while Egwene and Nynaeve contributed it didn't really amount for much aside from a second fakeout death for Nynaeve.  Perhaps they will play this out with a better landing in season 2.  Maybe something to do with Nynaeve's block.

 

 

That's funny because I thought they conveyed the addictive nature of the power really well with Amalisa in this scene, but simultaneously showed why it was so addictive. The POWER. It was one of my favorite moments of the episode. But yes, while I found the burning-out effects to be awesome/disturbing, I do agree they pushed it too far for my liking with the injuries Nynaeve sustained. I hope they incorporate this into her block next season(s) as well.

Edited December 29, 2021 by VooDooNut
typo

[Mirefox]

25 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I personally see it as approaching the change with an open mind.  Trying to figure out why a change was made and what implications it could mean later on in the series.  After looking at the change from this angle I can then decide whether I liked it or not but also with the caveat of changing my mind later depending on how the payoff lands.

 

An example of this is having Nynaeve and Egwene being part of the force to to destroy the trolloc army rather than Rand. Initially I thought it was a good idea to give Egwene/Nynaeve something to do in the climax.  In execution I loved that the changed allowed Rand to have mirror to a fight late in the series but left the Nynaeve and Egwene scenes were lacking. 

 

While I appreciated the effect of burning out I don't believe they highlighted the idea that the power is addictive and that is why Amalisa didn't release the power.  Ultimately while Egwene and Nynaeve contributed it didn't really amount for much aside from a second fakeout death for Nynaeve.  Perhaps they will play this out with a better landing in season 2.  Maybe something to do with Nynaeve's block.

 

 

Trying to figure out why a change is made is fine and I enjoy the speculative nature of the discussions sometimes but you also have to be willing to admit that sometimes the answers will lie outside of the show and sometimes the answers will be that the writers screwed up. 
 

Why did Rand wander off on his own?  There’s something to wonder about.

 

Why has every scene of heroism and display of power been given only to the women, even when one big one was for Rand?  Now we’re looking outside the story at the values Rafe has explicitly said he wants to convey using the snow.

 

Why was LTT called the Dragon Reborn?  Someone screwed up or doesn’t know what they are talking about.

 

And therein lies the problem.  The show doesn’t exist in a vacuum.

[Yojimbo]

1 hour ago, VooDooNut said:

For what it's worth, I really enjoyed reading your description of the cyclical nature of the WOT. I disagree with the conclusion, but I also don't think calling LTT the "Dragon Reborn" conflicts with anything you said here. It's just another way of recognizing the role the dragon plays in the world of Randland ad infinitum.

Calling LTT the Dragon Reborn is so far down on the list of things that annoy me about the show that I can't haven't given it a second thought. 

[Mirefox]

7 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Calling LTT the Dragon Reborn is so far down on the list of things that annoy me about the show that I can't haven't given it a second thought. 

But it is pretty emblematic of what you don’t like.

 

It is obvious that one of two things is going on.  Either the writers don’t know the story or they don’t like the story.  Rage claims to love it but you don’t fundamentally change something you love.

 

LTT is a case in point.  Being called the Dragon Reborn is pretty bad and seems a clear error by the writers.  Making him act out of arrogance is more than an error; it is a fundamental change to his character.  

[Jackdaw_Fool]

2 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

Yet, they mentioned saidin and that it may be tainted by LTT's action.  Hence, my post.

I don't understand... Are you referring to the prologue of episode 8 still? If so, they didn't mention saidin. It was referred to only as the "one power." I think I read someone mention that an astute listener would hear that the word saidin was spoken somewhere in the dialogue in the old tongue, but it's easily arguable that only what was translated in the subtitles should matter. And there they told the viewers "one power"...

[Yojimbo]

2 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

But it is pretty emblematic of what you don’t like.

 

It is obvious that one of two things is going on.  Either the writers don’t know the story or they don’t like the story.  Rage claims to love it but you don’t fundamentally change something you love.

 

LTT is a case in point.  Being called the Dragon Reborn is pretty bad and seems a clear error by the writers.  Making him act out of arrogance is more than an error; it is a fundamental change to his character.  

It could very well be some incredibly sloppy writing.   And sloppy writing IS one of the things that annoys me about the show.  How he acts is much worse though.  The whole scene was cringeworthy IMO.   

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

It could very well be some incredibly sloppy writing.   And sloppy writing IS one of the things that annoys me about the show.  How he acts is much worse though.  The whole scene was cringeworthy IMO.   

Straight up character assassination.  It was written as a desperate last stand with a tragic ending for the hero.  It was adapted as an arrogant man destroying the world through hubris.  Not an insignificant change.

[Yojimbo]

2 minutes ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

I don't understand... Are you referring to the prologue of episode 8 still? If so, they didn't mention saidin. It was referred to only as the "one power." I think I read someone mention that an astute listener would hear that the word saidin was spoken somewhere in the dialogue in the old tongue, but it's easily arguable that only what was translated in the subtitles should matter. And there they told the viewers "one power"...

If the word Saidin was used it could be either really sloppy translation (more amateur hour stuff from the show), or even just something akin to a male pronoun for the One Power and not a word distinguishing a totally different thing from Saidin.   

[Jackdaw_Fool]

1 minute ago, Yojimbo said:

just something akin to a male pronoun for the One Power

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking too. I believe Latra says "your power" at one point and I was thinking in the show "saidin" might be something akin to a male possessive form of "the power."

[Mirefox]

Since these writers seemingly have a master plan for everything, I wish the cold opens featured LTT more.  There could have been a running theme where they kept the book prologue for the first episode and slowly moved back in time to the LTT prologue In episode 8.  Or they could have done the reverse and done the episode 8 prologue in episode 1 and worked forward to having the boom prologue in episode 8.

 

I would have to go back and watch but if I remember it all, the episode 1 cold open was by far the weakest of them all.

[WhiteVeils]

5 hours ago, flinn said:

 In the big picture.. tainting Saidin is a major part. It is the taint that drives men insane and more importantly breaks down the barriers so that Rand can remember his past life. Without the ability to remember his past life, Rand would not succeed. Also, to repair the seal perfectly it requires the use of saidin/saidar/true power. That is also a major plot point that is necessary for the physics and logics to make sense. The main point of the Wheel of Time is balance, that is why the yin/yang symbol is so important.

Balance, I will agree, is a main theme of the story, absolutely.  The taint on Saidin is an important worldbuilding function. Rand remembering his past life is a helpful mechanic.  Those things I agree with.  Neither of those things require that Saidin and Saidir be entirely alien to each other.  They could both be seized the exact same way, but with different consequences, and all of that plot point will be the same. The show has made absolutely clear that Saidin is tainted, so that hasn't changed. It has made clear that Rand has memories of his past life, so that is there.  We don't know what will happen at the last battle, but nothing done precludes anything you've said.  

The /theme/ is balance.  Saidin and Saidir are elements of the story used to demonstrate Balance, but they do not have to be 100% exactly the same in every respect in order to express the theme of balance. There are other ways.

[Yojimbo]

7 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

The show has made absolutely clear that Saidin is tainted, so that hasn't changed. 

Actually, they haven't.  In the cold opening for Ep 1 Liandrin tells that unnamed man that it was his touching of the one power that fouled it.   And you can't use the unreliable narrator for that.  If an Aes Sedai says something like that she must believe that Saidin and Saidar are the same.  If they are so stupid as to believe that then it means that Aes Sedai are all just blithering idiots.   So the choices are (a) Aes Sedai are all complete morons, (b) there is no difference between Saidin and Saidar, or (c) the writers are blithering idiots.  And guess who wrote that episode?   

[Jackdaw_Fool]

14 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

The show has made absolutely clear that Saidin is tainted, so that hasn't changed.

I've always thought I was pretty good at seeing things that were absolutely clear, and I haven't seen anything in the show about saidin. In fact, I don't think saidin and saidar are even things in this show based on what the show has told me... Did I miss something? I know about the bonus content where it is mentioned, but I don't think that counts. Thought Moiraine would mention it as the reason she couldn't teach Rand, but no. Thought it would be mentioned in the conversation between arrogant LTT and wise and all knowing Latra, but no. They've totally gone out of their way to not mention it... Or it just doesn't exist in the show. It's been an entire season, so I'm forced to go with the latter.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Jackdaw_Fool
To add "not"

[Mirefox]

12 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Balance, I will agree, is a main theme of the story, absolutely.  The taint on Saidin is an important worldbuilding function. Rand remembering his past life is a helpful mechanic.  Those things I agree with.  Neither of those things require that Saidin and Saidir be entirely alien to each other.  They could both be seized the exact same way, but with different consequences, and all of that plot point will be the same. The show has made absolutely clear that Saidin is tainted, so that hasn't changed. It has made clear that Rand has memories of his past life, so that is there.  We don't know what will happen at the last battle, but nothing done precludes anything you've said.  

The /theme/ is balance.  Saidin and Saidir are elements of the story used to demonstrate Balance, but they do not have to be 100% exactly the same in every respect in order to express the theme of balance. There are other ways.

If Saidin and Saidir are separate, then it is the taint that is the cause of the problems.  If they are the same thing, then men are the problem.  Seems a big difference.

[Mirefox]

4 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Actually, they haven't.  In the cold opening for Ep 1 Liandrin tells that unnamed man that it was his touching of the one power that fouled it.   And you can't use the unreliable narrator for that.  If an Aes Sedai says something like that she must believe that Saidin and Saidar are the same.  If they are so stupid as to believe that then it means that Aes Sedai are all just blithering idiots.   So the choices are (a) Aes Sedai are all complete morons, (b) there is no difference between Saidin and Saidar, or (c) the writers are blithering idiots.  And guess who wrote that episode?   

Oh my, in the cesspool of episode 8 I forgot all about that gem from Liandrin.
 

I genuinely don’t think the writers know what they are talking about but now I also have an alternate theory thanks to you: maybe they are intentionally making the Aes Sedai blithering idiots as you suggest because they are going to make the Saidin/Saidar dichotomy some big “reveal” later in the series.  Something like Rand telling Moiraine “you were wrong all along, our powers are separate and I can fix us…”. Or something like that.  Horrific idea  I can vaguely see it happening.

[Jackdaw_Fool]

2 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

some big “reveal” later in the series.  Something like Rand telling Moiraine “you were wrong all along, our powers are separate and I can fix us…”.

Interesting idea, though after being beaten over the head by the themes of the first season I'd think it more likely Nynaeve would make this discovery and ultimately be responsible for cleansing saidin.