tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[CanisNoir]

21 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

If everyone will get their moment…why intentionally remove almost every great moment for all the men in season one, but not only stop there, give those moments to the women? You yourself just said they all get great moments so why do they need the men’s moments?
 

On your second point I agree completely. They did that multiple times throughout the season and it bothered me every time. 

 

this section was for the previous commenter you were talking to:  Even Aes Sedai defer to one another based on their raw powers. So, yeah, someone’s badassery is important as it reveals them to be a threat. None of the main men are threats as of yet, and I don’t really have any reason to care about the Dragon Reborn, in any age. 

 

Yes, Aes Sedi organize themselves based on Power Level instead of on who is actually the better "leader" which doesn't always work out too well for them, and honestly, isn't the wisest way to organize. I don't belive this disproves my point.  

 

Rand teleporting and taking out the Trolloc army at the Gap was kind of confusing and visually would have been pretty hard to depict in a fashion the viewing audience could follow. (Heck, it was written in such a way that much of the book audience couldn't really follow the ending) In addition, the rest of our group has absolutely nothing to do. Giving the "Power" moment in the Gap to Amalisa and group gave them something to do. Now personally I would have had them at the Gap instead of in front of the City, because that would have saved a crap ton of dudes, but miitary tactics often take a back seat to visuals when it comes to TV shows so I'll laugh about it, but roll with it. Still, there's a very valid reason to hand off that particular "power move" to someone other than Rand. 

 

Also, just because Rands "Power Move" at the eye wasn't as flashy, doesn't mean it wasn't more impactful. Rand's little blast in Episode 8 is, by far, the most world impacting piece of channeling we've seen in the show so far. Also, at this point in the books, our characters were still pretty clueless teenagers fairly reliant upon Moraine for all of their agency. It's really not until Book 3 and beyond where they start to take on lives of their own. 

 

It's almost as if people wanted Mat to start asking women if they were the Daughter of the Nine Moons and rolling the dice in Season 1. The show has just gotten started so it's a little premature, in my opinion, to be assuming where these character arcs are headed.

[TheDreadReader]

7 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

I agree, I wasn't too happy with the way they introduced his Character. It seemed to me they did it simply so that Moiraine could "put him in his place", but then again Moiraine said "I'm not here to advise you" and then went ahead and advised him, so while he came across as a little disrespectful, she came off as a little naggy. Neither were painted in a great light.  As the audience we empathize more with Moiraine though because she is our main protagonist. But like I said, in the end, Agalmar went out like a boss, his honor intact. Meanwhile Moiraine was played by Ishmael and Amalisa lost control and killed people. 

 

 

I found the reaction of some fans to this scene amusing it bordered on "how dare Agelmar disrespect Moiraine like that".    I thought it was well done.   

 

Why would the borderlanders be warm and welcoming to a random Aes Sedai after the fall of Malkier?  And, if they were warm and welcoming how much of it would just be them putting a polite face on to hide their inner-thoughts and feelings?

 

RJ liked to show the Aes Sedai being wrong a lot.  It is one of the ways that he deconstructed the power structures that he crafted in the books as the series went on.

 

 

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

I agree, I wasn't too happy with the way they introduced his Character. It seemed to me they did it simply so that Moiraine could "put him in his place", but then again Moiraine said "I'm not here to advise you" and then went ahead and advised him, so while he came across as a little disrespectful, she came off as a little naggy. Neither were painted in a great light.  As the audience we empathize more with Moiraine though because she is our main protagonist. But like I said, in the end, Agalmar went out like a boss, his honor intact. Meanwhile Moiraine was played by Ishmael and Amalisa lost control and killed people. 

 

So there are definitely some choices I'm not the biggest fan of, but I don't necessarily see the choices being the result of intentionally trying to "lessen" men. 

 

 

Agalmar’s death (if he is dead, I thought I read somewhere that he involved in the filming of the second season?) redeemed him somewhat yet, and there are obvious parallels regarding him and his sister with Manetheren’s end. 
 

The battle as a whole was questionable to me and for a great captain he didn’t cover himself in glory there but evidently COVID had quite impact there which is really unfortunate.

 

In any case I agree it has nothing do with lessening man but I feel like there’s a desire to make characters “darker” and edgier and I’m just not a big fan of it. Sometimes good people are just…good people?

 

3 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

.To be honest, I thought the Perrin \ Egween "White Cloak" scene was a bit of a Rorschach test for the audience. People seemed to have a more visceral reaction to Egwene being roughly bathed than they did for Perrin having his back flayed open.  Given a choice, yea, bathe me roughly please lol. Yet still, they would not have escaped had it not been for Perrin, overcoming the tremendous physical pain, standing up to Valda and having his wolf brothers provide cover while they got out of the camp. The only thing Egwene did is burn through Perrin and her bonds, then poorly stab Valda while mistakenly believing him dead.

 

 

Right but I would say it would have been more useful in terms of character development to have Perrin stab Valda. It does nothing for Egwene, she never meets the man again, never gets involved with Whitecloaks, doesn’t struggle with violence.

 

For Perrin it would have been more meaningful, especially contrasting with his interest in the Way of the Leaf. 

Its these kinds of small

avoidable missteps which are more frustrating to me than the bigger changes than sometimes don’t end up working all that well, but were necessary on some level due to the constraints of an adaptation (not to mention the mess with COVID and Mat’s actor among other things).

[JaimAybara]

2 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

Also, just because Rands "Power Move" at the eye wasn't as flashy, doesn't mean it wasn't more impactful. Rand's little blast in Episode 8 is, by far, the most world impacting piece of channeling we've seen in the show so far. Also, at this point in the books, our characters were still pretty clueless teenagers fairly reliant upon Moraine for all of their agency. It's really not until Book 3 and beyond where they start to take on lives of their own. 

This was his last “power move” to really have. They already cut the lighting strike earlier. And for many they keep saying “adapting for visual medium” yes, his move was impactful from a literary sense but it was just as confusing if not more so than the book, so now, he isn’t doing anything at the same level of visual importance as anyone else, he’s lost his big moment, and people are still confused. 
 

No sword training (break down sturdy door) 

No Caemlyn / standing up to whitecloaks 

No music training

No lighting strike (push guy off ledge)

He had one more move to play…Tarwin’s Gap. Which was also taken away. He’s almost done none of the things he is supposed to have accomplished at this point in the book. And the ones he has the development was rushed or extremely lackluster.
 

Yes, 100% agree they should have all been on the wall, but why not allow for Rand to come back and help save them? Especially in a situation where we are strapped for time we now need to spend even more time with Rand for us to understand who and what he is and what he is capable of. I thought we needed to use time wisely. We already saw Moiraine walk through blue light and end up somewhere else. They have already implied abilities of that nature existed with an angreal or not it wouldn’t matter, people would just say, “ohhhhh, he did what she did without a picture.” I think their decisions are specious at best. None of the men are where they should be character wise and we are already in Book 2 territory. 

[CanisNoir]

16 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Agalmar’s death (if he is dead, I thought I read somewhere that he involved in the filming of the second season?) redeemed him somewhat yet, and there are obvious parallels regarding him and his sister with Manetheren’s end. 
 

The battle as a whole was questionable to me and for a great captain he didn’t cover himself in glory there but evidently COVID had quite impact there which is really unfortunate.

 

In any case I agree it has nothing do with lessening man but I feel like there’s a desire to make characters “darker” and edgier and I’m just not a big fan of it. Sometimes good people are just…good people?

 

 

 

Right but I would say it would have been more useful in terms of character development to have Perrin stab Valda. It does nothing for Egwene, she never meets the man again, never gets involved with Whitecloaks, doesn’t struggle with violence.

 

For Perrin it would have been more meaningful, especially contrasting with his interest in the Way of the Leaf. 

Its these kinds of small

avoidable missteps which are more frustrating to me than the bigger changes than sometimes don’t end up working all that well, but were necessary on some level due to the constraints of an adaptation (not to mention the mess with COVID and Mat’s actor among other things).

 

They definitely have gone darker with the characters, and to an extent I blame Game of Thrones for that. Whether or not it's the right move, I think, we'll see in the future if it does draw in more audience. It's not as Grim Dark as GOT, but it is definitely darker than the books. Personally, I kind of like that they're leaning into some of the more darker aspects of the story. Jordan hints at some pretty horrific things being done and I think elevating these gives our antagonists some real teeth. I think soon enough the non readers will realize the E5 have invincible plot armor and this isn't GOT, so I wish the show would stop with the "death" fake outs. 

 

When I rewatch the scene in Valda's tent, it appears to me as if Perrin is lost in communication with the wolfs and only snaps out of it when Egwene stabs Valda - which is why Perrin just stood there with his mouth open while Valda delivered his worst line of the season.  I think they were subtly trying to show Perrins powers manifesting, like they did with him scratching his nose in the ways. The scene felt clunky to me, so I think they definitely could have done a better job of it. I don't necessarily think you need Perrin to do the stabbing to establish his future White Cloak Animosity. To Valda, Egwene is just another girl training to be an Aes Sedi, but Perrin, is a full blown Golden Eyed Dark Friend who can control wolves. He's definitely a bigger target of the White Cloaks than Egwene. 

[Scarloc99]

As an aside I will say, I find it hilarious that a game I played back  in the late 90’s has spawned such a common phrase. I also find it funny that Grim Dark is applied to things like GOT and even WOT when compared to the 40k universe they are positively rainbows and sunshine :). 

[CanisNoir]

16 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

This was his last “power move” to really have. They already cut the lighting strike earlier. And for many they keep saying “adapting for visual medium” yes, his move was impactful from a literary sense but it was just as confusing if not more so than the book, so now, he isn’t doing anything at the same level of visual importance as anyone else, he’s lost his big moment, and people are still confused. 
 

No sword training (break down sturdy door) 

No Caemlyn / standing up to whitecloaks 

No music training

No lighting strike (push guy off ledge)

He had one more move to play…Tarwin’s Gap. Which was also taken away. He’s almost done none of the things he is supposed to have accomplished at this point in the book. And the ones he has the development was rushed or extremely lackluster.
 

Yes, 100% agree they should have all been on the wall, but why not allow for Rand to come back and help save them? Especially in a situation where we are strapped for time we now need to spend even more time with Rand for us to understand who and what he is and what he is capable of. I thought we needed to use time wisely. We already saw Moiraine walk through blue light and end up somewhere else. They have already implied abilities of that nature existed with an angreal or not it wouldn’t matter, people would just say, “ohhhhh, he did what she did without a picture.” I think their decisions are specious at best. None of the men are where they should be character wise and we are already in Book 2 territory. 

 

The lack of sword training bothers me a little too, but I'm not sure where they could have really placed it, or why they would include it at this point. Rand hasn't needed to use his sword at all this season. I'm hoping they'll get to that in the future. 

Watching Non-Reader reaction videos (which really does help me get over my book biases lol) it seems as though many of them were confused by the angreal Moirain and Suian used so I think just having Rand Travel would have also been confusing - but I admit, it's a debatable point so we'll have to agree to disagree on it.

 

Regarding the Men being where they should be character wise, I'm also not seeing it. Rand has wandered off on his own to protect his friends and come to terms with the fact that he is The Dragon Reborn and will go insane. This is pretty much Rand book 3. 

Mat is still suffering from th Dagger and is back in Tar Valon, which strikes me as Mat book 2. Fain has the Dagger and the Horn and is traveling to parts unknown (Falme?) Perrin is about to hunt down Fain, somewhat understands his connections to wolves but isn't really ready to fully embrace it. Seems like Perrin book 2. 

 

They took different routes to get there, sure, but it seems to me as if we've ended up in the right spot for Season 1.

[JaimAybara]

14 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

They took different routes to get there, sure, but it seems to me as if we've ended up in the right spot for Season 1.

I guess just seeing a side by side for where the men should be/ what they have technically already done in the books vs. the women on screen is bothering me. Even in the incomplete list I showed you there are a bunch more for Perrin. God, he has just coasted through an entire season and his big moment was just awful. ( Mat’s development is the one I give significant wiggle room on because yeah the dagger and they had unforeseen complications with the actor dropping out but even then he’s not speaking in the old tongue which could have easily been when he was cussing at the kid, his backstory is a mess, and he really wasn’t even truly his plucky self before the dagger due to their changes), so many of the big moments are missing but this is also underscored by the fact they are all missing very important smaller moments as well. 
 

* also thank you for the back and forth. This is type of discussion I look forward to on here. So thank you. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by JaimAybara

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

The main things that should be touched on is:

 

- LTT begging LPD to end the concord and her opposition to his plan 

- LPD resolute in her refusal, pointing out the risks are too great

- LTT acknowledging the risks, but insisting there is no other choice, time is up, the shadow is on the cusp of victory and the Chodean Kal will soon be lost

- LPD insists the access keys will be recovered and she maintains her refusal to cooperate with LTT’s plan

- Once she leaves show LTT decide to put his plan in to motion regardless

 

This would have helped the scene a fair amount and set up a bunch of stuff for the future.  Thankfully Rafe has said we will be seeing more of LTT in the AoL.

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

Agreed, overall I don’t care who gets “badass” moments, there’s so many of them in the series everyone will get theirs.

 

Only thing that bothers me is when characters are changed for seemingly no reason. The change to Agalmar making him frankly disrespectful and rude to Moiraine, and then arrogant to boot just seems pointless to me. They could have had him resentful at Shienar suffering so much when the southerners barely believe in shadowspawn if they wanted to add stuff to him.

Do you remember how Agelmar was in the Last Battle.  He chastises Lan for even questioning his battle plans.  Yes he was under compulsion but I don't think that changed his core being, it just made him continually make small mistakes.

[Gary Reborn]

I didn’t really get the white cloak part until the last episode but it seems like Perrin has been full on way of the leaf since the tinkers and that was the conversation with Loial he found a non violent way to help but now Fain brought up the hammer/axe thing and it seems like Perrin has been pushed to the axe and Fain is trying to make him believe that = shadow and that some of them may fall. Seemed pretty interesting to me and they are setting up the groundwork to the whole hammer/axe dilemma.

 

The fact that Perrin was tortured and still kept to the way of the leaf is pretty impressive and then I thought him abandoning it to save/protect/avenge a friend also speaks pretty highly to his character, he values other people’s pain more than his own. It seems like he was fully willing to take to the way of the leaf, die and let Egwene be freed rather than abandon the way of the leaf and be violent again so I thought it really spoke to how seriously he took the way of the leaf but then how much more seriously he took his friends. Or I guess to put it another way if Valda had simply said he would kill them both we may have seen Perrin attack him instead.

 

Also IDK I do think it would be kind of cool to have the white cloaks hate Perrin for no good reason at all like if he never even raised a hand against them in violence but they still just absolutely hate him because they don’t understand him and just assume he’s a dark friend. I feel like they did something similar with a Bornhald that had irrational hate toward Perrin for no real reason so to just have that complete lack of justification from the beginning would be kind of cool.

[flinn]

 Another big miss about snatching away Rand's big moment is that what happened at Tarwins Gap starts rumors...

 

 "We were saved by a man who was doing what no man should do"

 

 the people have to accept the dragon reborn as well, as of now, there is nothing Rand has done to make people think he will save them.

 

but I am sure that means nothing because they will have Nynaeve tell people Rand is the DR and everyone will do as Nynaeve says.

[7th age]

1 hour ago, CanisNoir said:

Also, just because Rands "Power Move" at the eye wasn't as flashy, doesn't mean it wasn't more impactful. Rand's little blast in Episode 8 is, by far, the most world impacting piece of channeling we've seen in the show so far.

Yes it is. Only his "Power Move" consists of helping the Dark.  I have asked this twice now in this thread, perhaps you can find an answer for me. Is there ANY upside for the light in what M. and Rand did this episode?  He breaks the seal and as a book reader and knowing that from next season on we get at least Lanfear I can only conclude Rand just freed the Forsaken, now that counts for an "impactful power move" and it does mirror LTT incompetence from the cold open, it just doesnt have anything to do with what happens in EotW

 

[CanisNoir]

36 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I guess just seeing a side by side for where the men should be/ what they have technically already done in the books vs. the women on screen is bothering me. Even in the incomplete list I showed you there are a bunch more for Perrin. God, he has just coasted through an entire season and his big moment was just awful. ( Mat’s development is the one I give significant wiggle room on because yeah the dagger and they had unforeseen complications with the actor dropping out but even then he’s not speaking in the old tongue which could have easily been when he was cussing at the kid, his backstory is a mess, and he really wasn’t even truly his plucky self before the dagger due to their changes), so many of the big moments are missing but this is also underscored by the fact they are all missing very important smaller moments as well. 
 

* also thank you for the back and forth. This is type of discussion I look forward to on here. So thank you. 

 

First and foremost, you're welcome. More people these days need to understand you can disagree with someone and still see their viewpoints as being valid.  And honestly, your points aren't without merit, even though I see it differently. I thank you as well for the back and forth.

 

I think the main thing to come to terms with regarding this adaptation, or at least this Season (and possibly next) is that Moiraine is the main character, and by extension Lan. They are the top billed actors, and a consious decision was made to focus on Moiraine at first. This automatically side lines the Emmonds field five, and it showed. They used "Short Hand" to fill in some of the more important characteristics of the 5, though with Egwene and Nynaeve both being female channelers, they would have more meaningful interactions with Moiraine than the boys, so they feel even more slighted by that change of focus. Especially since the first book centered around Rand and his POV. 

 

Mat's parents are shown to be POS's so that we see that Mat takes care of his little sisters. This desire to take care of them drives him to make some questionable choices, but also drives him to over come his fear. (In Ep1 he pauses before charging into the frey to save his sisters, you can almost see him thinking "Blood and bloody ashes, what have you gotten yourself into" before he sighs and then charges in. Mat is also the first to know Rand and Egwene have had a falling out, and is the first to spot and comfort Perrin. This, to me, is very much the hart of Mat's character. 

 

Perrin, yea, they could have done Perrin differently, but here is what I think they were going for. Perrin and his wife are on the outs, they show us that he has feelings for Egwene, but truly loves his wife and his friends. Because he accidentially killed her in a fit of rage, he is more open to The Way of The Leaf setting up his struggle between The Axe and the Hammer. The momentary "love triable" showed Perrins loyalty to his friends as he expresses love for Rand and tells Egwene tht of course they are fine. This too, is pretty much the heart of his character, though I really think they could have done something other than the dead wife.

 

Rands development, in my opinion, suffered the most from "The Mystery" because most of his development is done through Episode 7's reveal recontextualizing all of his actions in Episodes 2 through 7. You really need to rewatch those episodes knowing that Rand is struggling internally, to fully get his character development, but it's there. He loves Egwene, despite knowing she doesn't love him as much, he cares about his friends to the point of sacrificing himself and lieing to them in order to protect them. He doesn't want anyone, including Moiaine, to die on what he considers "his account" which is why he tells her to stay, even though he knows he's ignorant af on what he's doing.

 

Nynaeve only got extra development because of her relationship with Lan,  and the fact that she was stuck with Moiraine and Lan in the Aes Sedi camp in Ep 4. Egwene really hasn't been developed beyond "You can channel" and her willingness to do what she thinks is right, very quickly. You catch hints of her superb memory when she recites the Tinker response verbatim after hearing it just once, but really that's about it.

 

So I, personally, think the entire E5 got very little character development this season as they focused on Moiraine, the Aes Sedi and world building, but because these are valid production reasons, I understand the choices, and have faith that the younger characters will get more screen time as the part they play in shaping the world becomes more prominant. 

 

As much as I didn't like what the "Mystery" caused, I can't argue against it, with the weekly release it certainly drumed up hype and speculation, all of which is good for a shows future.

 

We need to remember, Game of Thrones didn't really become a "thing" until the end of Season 3 and The Red Wedding. While the two shows are completely different beasts, the comparisons are natural, but we should be giving 1 to 1 comparisons and not expect The Wheel of Time Season 1 to be as captivating as GOT Season 4. 

[CanisNoir]

19 minutes ago, 7th age said:

Yes it is. Only his "Power Move" consists of helping the Dark.  I have asked this twice now in this thread, perhaps you can find an answer for me. Is there ANY upside for the light in what M. and Rand did this episode?  He breaks the seal and as a book reader and knowing that from next season on we get at least Lanfear I can only conclude Rand just freed the Forsaken, now that counts for an "impactful power move" and it does mirror LTT incompetence from the cold open, it just doesnt have anything to do with what happens in EotW

 

 

My understanding of the ending of EotW was that everyone played into Ishy's plan and released the Foresaken on the world. I saw the book ending as being an L for the Light as well, very similar to how the show played out. 

 

Also, Rand isn't incompetent one in this situation. Moiraine and Suian are.

 

Both know the power of dreams and that the Dark One can manipulate them, yet both allowed Dreams to bring an untrained, clueless shepherd to The Eye of the World, armed only with a Sa Angreal and the words "The power will come when your life depends on it" as guidance. I don't blame the good meaning but clueless shepherd for the way things went down. I blame the super powerful seemingly all knowing women who, in their arrogance, believed they were immune to the very thing Moiraine warned the Emmonds Field Five about - the power of dreams, 

[MasterAblar]

49 minutes ago, Skipp said:

This would have helped the scene a fair amount and set up a bunch of stuff for the future.  Thankfully Rafe has said we will be seeing more of LTT in the AoL.

 

I hope so, I'm just not sure how they fix this scene. In all honesty it was probably my least favorite scene in the entire series. Which is probably silly I know because it's purely from a reader's perspective, but I was so happy to see LTT and the AoL. Only thing thatI really liked that scene to me is LTT's outfit. Such a nice touch.

 

47 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Do you remember how Agelmar was in the Last Battle.  He chastises Lan for even questioning his battle plans.  Yes he was under compulsion but I don't think that changed his core being, it just made him continually make small mistakes.

 

Hmmm, I'd have to read it again. I don't recall him being particularly arrogant, just suprised at Lan questioning him, feeling like these were insignificant mistakes. It's hard to know how much is the compulsion causing him to be blind to his mistakes. Maybe you're right though.

 

I do recall him being rather dismissive of Rand, Mat and Perrin in book 1, so I can see him being a little haugty. Just not towards Moiraine, who is Lan's Aes Sedai no less! And in any case as a great captain there should simply be more competence. It does kinda feel like a need from the writers to have characters be a little darker.

Edited December 27, 2021 by MasterAblar

[EmreY]

To all the people saying that Rand was done a disservice in this series, I say: I agree.

 

To all who say that Nynaeve and Egwene got bumped up too much: I also agree.

 

However, let us cast our minds back to an earlier Age, a simpler Age when all we had were the books.  Their endings (very simplified) were:

 

Book 1

Spoiler

Rand blows up Ishy and a bunch of other folk

 

Book 2

 

Spoiler

Rand blows up Ishy and a bunch of other folk

 

Book 3

 

Spoiler

Rand blows up Ishy and a bunch of other folk

 

Book 4

 

Spoiler

Rand doesn't blow up Ishy (I was shocked, let me tell you), and there's relatively little blowing up overall.  

 

You see where I'm going with this?  The last chance for Rand to show off?  No, nowhere near.  However, if you're going to maintain any kind of interest in a character who at the end is supposed to confront a primordial Big Bad, you start slow.  As RJ did.  I'm very pleased with the continued distraction that is Nynaeve and Egwene and the focus off Rand.  Now, I like Rand as a character, but I think the second series will again understate his role.

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by EmreY

[WhiteVeils]

One of the annoying and stereotypical things from 'heroes quest' stories, IMO, and something audiences recognize, is the idea that a character can have a 5 minute training montage and suddenly be expert at something.  It can sort of make sense, I guess, with a wild and uncontrolled burst of magic, but not with becoming a  swordmaster.

In the books, Perrin and Rand and Mat all become awesome fighters extremely quick somewhere between EOTW and The Great Hunt.  Well, maybe not Mat, but he gets an excuse later, IMO, as he draws on the old blood after dagger healing.  And Rand is clearly a very good shot with a bow. The show is choosing to avoid the trope in some interesting ways.  They avoid early fights with them, and make it clear that they are not in control or really capable yet.  They are going to avoid, it looks like, training from super-warder.   

I think they're setting Perrin up to decide after the events at Fal Dara that he is going to have to fight to defend those he cares about...he can't just stand aside and hope not to screw up.  So he can go into training with Ingtar and the Sheinarans with a will (at least I hope so). I think Mat will still draw on his old memories, because that's cool, but maybe in a more surprising way.  I'm not sure who Rand will learn from...maybe the Aiel, though, at least to start.  We'll have to see.  But having them learn in their own unique ways and their own styles is pretty interesting, potentially.

[gibbons]

6 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

One of the annoying and stereotypical things from 'heroes quest' stories, IMO, and something audiences recognize, is the idea that a character can have a 5 minute training montage and suddenly be expert at something.  It can sort of make sense, I guess, with a wild and uncontrolled burst of magic, but not with becoming a  swordmaster.

In the books, Perrin and Rand and Mat all become awesome fighters extremely quick somewhere between EOTW and The Great Hunt.  Well, maybe not Mat, but he gets an excuse later, IMO, as he draws on the old blood after dagger healing.  And Rand is clearly a very good shot with a bow. The show is choosing to avoid the trope in some interesting ways.  They avoid early fights with them, and make it clear that they are not in control or really capable yet.  They are going to avoid, it looks like, training from super-warder.  

This argument would make sense with the show depiction of the characters, but kinda falls flat when you add in the missing details from the the books. Lan starts training the two rivers trio to fight near enough from the start of their journey which in itself is months but really Lan seems to mostly be adding onto existing foundations, except sword forms with Rand.
 

Rand: Flame and the void from Tam which if I recall right is a blademaster's thing, I also suspect that the mentions of the sword "belonging with him" despite being a novice ties into Lews Therin in the same way that Rand sometimes knows how to do things with the power that he shouldn't.  Archery + quarterstaff from two rivers upbringing.

Perrin: Harder to say because we only see a POV of him in combat in book 3, but I believe he was given the axe after being caught training with it, skilled archer as all two rivers men as shown to be. Perrin seems to rely on brute strength and animal instinct, any formal training, super-warder or otherwise is probably irrelevant when it's the wolf at the wheel.

 

Matt: Skilled with bow and staff, he first starts shouting in the old tongue before the dagger so seems like he has the whole ancestral memory thing going for him. Probably doesn't help that the show turns him from prankster with a heart of gold (ok, maybe silver...) into a thief with daddy issues, because reasons I guess.

 

anyway i'm rambling, but it seems that all three characters are being made less than they were. These are not supposed to be young boys with no skills, they are young men each with their own skill sets and it feels like it is glossed over, Perrin and Rand in particular.

[Ralph]

17 minutes ago, gibbons said:

This argument would make sense with the show depiction of the characters, but kinda falls flat when you add in the missing details from the the books. Lan starts training the two rivers trio to fight near enough from the start of their journey which in itself is months but really Lan seems to mostly be adding onto existing foundations, except sword forms with Rand.

9 days acc to http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl0998.htm#book1

 

17 minutes ago, gibbons said:

 

Rand: Flame and the void from Tam which if I recall right is a blademaster's thing, I also suspect that the mentions of the sword "belonging with him" despite being a novice ties into Lews Therin in the same way that Rand sometimes knows how to do things with the power that he shouldn't.  Archery + quarterstaff from two rivers upbringing.

Perrin: Harder to say because we only see a POV of him in combat in book 3, but I believe he was given the axe after being caught training with it

Don't recall this

17 minutes ago, gibbons said:

 

, skilled archer as all two rivers men as shown to be. Perrin seems to rely on brute strength and animal instinct, any formal training, super-warder or otherwise is probably irrelevant when it's the wolf at the wheel.

 

Matt: Skilled with bow and staff, he first starts shouting in the old tongue before the dagger so seems like he has the whole ancestral memory thing going for him. Probably doesn't help that the show turns him from prankster with a heart of gold (ok, maybe silver...) into a thief with daddy issues, because reasons I guess.

 

anyway i'm rambling, but it seems that all three characters are being made less than they were. These are not supposed to be young boys with no skills, they are young men each with their own skill sets and it feels like it is glossed over, Perrin and Rand in particular.

None of this explains how to show all this on the screen

Edited December 27, 2021 by Ralph

[Raal Gurniss]

16 minutes ago, gibbons said:

This argument would make sense with the show depiction of the characters, but kinda falls flat when you add in the missing details from the the books. Lan starts training the two rivers trio to fight near enough from the start of their journey which in itself is months but really Lan seems to mostly be adding onto existing foundations, except sword forms with Rand.
 

Rand: Flame and the void from Tam which if I recall right is a blademaster's thing, I also suspect that the mentions of the sword "belonging with him" despite being a novice ties into Lews Therin in the same way that Rand sometimes knows how to do things with the power that he shouldn't.  Archery + quarterstaff from two rivers upbringing.

Perrin: Harder to say because we only see a POV of him in combat in book 3, but I believe he was given the axe after being caught training with it, skilled archer as all two rivers men as shown to be. Perrin seems to rely on brute strength and animal instinct, any formal training, super-warder or otherwise is probably irrelevant when it's the wolf at the wheel.

 

Matt: Skilled with bow and staff, he first starts shouting in the old tongue before the dagger so seems like he has the whole ancestral memory thing going for him. Probably doesn't help that the show turns him from prankster with a heart of gold (ok, maybe silver...) into a thief with daddy issues, because reasons I guess.

 

anyway i'm rambling, but it seems that all three characters are being made less than they were. These are not supposed to be young boys with no skills, they are young men each with their own skill sets and it feels like it is glossed over, Perrin and Rand in particular.

They are all sub-characters, it’s really not about that half.

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Hmmm, I'd have to read it again. I don't recall him being particularly arrogant, just suprised at Lan questioning him, feeling like these were insignificant mistakes. It's hard to know how much is the compulsion causing him to be blind to his mistakes. Maybe you're right though.

 

In AMoL Agelmar is very much "Either Relieve me of command or don't question my orders" To Lan.  Wish I had the direct quotes but my books are packed away after moving.

 

But Certainly the character of Agelmar is different in the Show compared to the Agelmar we see in the first book.

[JaimAybara]

7 minutes ago, Ralph said:

9 days acc to http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl0998.htm#book1

 

Don't recall this

None of this explains how to show all this on the screen

Any of the number of Bel Tine competitions that could have built exposition for almost all the men at the same time in 30 seconds or less as a contrast to the women’s circle ceremony. Perrin holding a nice axe that he or Luhan just forged instead of his wife plot. I think there are any number of ways this could have been done. * I also would have made Abel a skilled quarterstaff warrior during the attack instead of what they did do, they still could have put his daughters in danger and had Mat go after them. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by JaimAybara

[TheDreadReader]

33 minutes ago, gibbons said:

This argument would make sense with the show depiction of the characters, but kinda falls flat when you add in the missing details from the the books. Lan starts training the two rivers trio to fight near enough from the start of their journey which in itself is months but really Lan seems to mostly be adding onto existing foundations, except sword forms with Rand.

 

There is no particular reason to assume that they do not have those same "foundations" in the show.  Rand obviously does with the bow in the show.  Moreover, if you watch how Rand moves with the sword in episode 8 there are signs of additional training. 

 

Points to the differences between "not shown", "not shown but implied", and "not shown yet but still possible" for these bookish elements.

 

Obviously, the actor playing Rand would have drilled/practiced a bit with the sword for episode 8 in their prep phase so the motion being more "natural" stems as much from that as it does anything else.   So, he would show improvement over time as a result of that regardless of if they show it on screen.  

 

 

33 minutes ago, gibbons said:

Rand: Flame and the void from Tam which if I recall right is a blademaster's thing, I also suspect that the mentions of the sword "belonging with him" despite being a novice ties into Lews Therin in the same way that Rand sometimes knows how to do things with the power that he shouldn't.  Archery + quarterstaff from two rivers upbringing.

 

We can argue about whether the flame and the void was visually represented in the archery scenes in Episode 7.  I'd say they were.

 

One under appreciated aspect of episode 8 is that the show clearly referenced Rand's need to learn the sword in his conversation with Ishy.   That may serve as the foundation to show him training with the sword in season 2.  It runs parallel to his need to learn to channel from the books.   

 

The difference here is that in the books there was more time to show small bits of training but screen time on the show is more limited.  

 

 

33 minutes ago, gibbons said:

anyway i'm rambling, but it seems that all three characters are being made less than they were. These are not supposed to be young boys with no skills, they are young men each with their own skill sets and it feels like it is glossed over, Perrin and Rand in particular.

 

By the end of the episode, two of the boys are shown to have killed a trolloc.  Rand is shown reflexively drawing his bow on the Quarry Road.  Rand is shown reflexively drawing and firing his bow at a trolloc during the farmhouse scene.   Rand recovers from being thrown across the room in the farmhouse to kill the Trolloc from behind.  Perrin is shown going mental on a Trolloc with an axe.

 

Basically, the show showed them being combat capable at a similar level just like the books did.   Mat really doesn't do much combat-wise (at least as far as I can recall) until he gets healed from the dagger and has the quarterstaff scene at the tower.  

 

Do they have room to develop additional capabilities?  I'd say yes.   But, thematically the ways things are setup for season two, they have a lot more reasons to do that following episode 8 then they did before episode 8.  So, I don't see it as them lessening the boys as much as I see them not having the need (or space) to do those things yet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[KakitaOCU]

  

4 hours ago, nsmallw said:

As opposed to the ardent defenders of everything Rafe and company do, calling those who feel differently "Whitecloaks" and "Darkfriends".  Let's be fair about both sides acting like silly children. 

Let's be very frank here.  This is not a "Both sides" thing.  While I dislike the Bookcloaks and other name calling (and you'll note I have not used such).  There's a difference between a comical name and outright accusation that disagreeing is a sign of deliberate corporate sell out or manipulation.

There's even a difference in the use:
Bookcloak: Comical reference to White Cloak because the book purists feel they're doing the right thing but are going overboard.  It's an insult, it's not really appropriate, but there's a kernel of truth in how many book purists behave.

Where as the stance of "You're not a real fan, you're a fake, you're a sell out, you can't possibly have a different opinion than me without being a failure on some level"  that's...  yeah.

Both are insulting, both are inappropriate, one is heavier than the other.

 

2 hours ago, flinn said:

 Another big miss about snatching away Rand's big moment is that what happened at Tarwins Gap starts rumors...

 

The rumors that meant nothing and did nothing in the books.  No one saw Rand as anything other than a southern Lord among the Border landers.  It's the end of TGH that actual proclaims him the Dragon and starts having people flock to him.

 

1 hour ago, CanisNoir said:

Also, Rand isn't incompetent one in this situation. Moiraine and Suian are.

 

Both know the power of dreams and that the Dark One can manipulate them, yet both allowed Dreams to bring an untrained, clueless shepherd to The Eye of the World, armed only with a Sa Angreal and the words "The power will come when your life depends on it" as guidance. I don't blame the good meaning but clueless shepherd for the way things went down. I blame the super powerful seemingly all knowing women who, in their arrogance, believed they were immune to the very thing Moiraine warned the Emmonds Field Five about - the power of dreams, 

 

But then you have to drop the pre-conceived notion that the show is trying to make men weak.   Acknowledging depth and that ultimately just because someone looks good to a casual view doesn't mean they're actually looking good on the big picture.
 

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

I do recall him being rather dismissive of Rand, Mat and Perrin in book 1, so I can see him being a little haugty. Just not towards Moiraine, who is Lan's Aes Sedai no less! And in any case as a great captain there should simply be more competence. It does kinda feel like a need from the writers to have characters be a little darker.

 

There's also a question of looking at what he actually does.  With Ituralde, Bashere and Byrne we see their skill and ability.  With Niall and Agelmar we just hear constant "They're amazing"  But we never see anything from Niall and we see Agelmar... Fail to hold the Gap, then get compulsed and fail in the last battle.  It's completely possible he was once great but has lost his edge even in the books.

Edited December 27, 2021 by KakitaOCU