tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[fra85uk]

46 minutes ago, TheSmurf said:

I'm wondering what character development show Lan went through... Skills-wise, he seemed to go backwards, and he fell in love. 

 

Amazing.

Don't forget he Twisted his nipple, it's quintessential for his character arc

[TheSmurf]

The sheer weight and volume of Character Development clearly overwhelmed me and I missed that part.

[WoTwasThat]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

[Re the DR being man or woman] this has been shown to be an in world thing, not an actual changing to the lore.

 

It being “an in world thing” doesn’t make it any better. Whether the prophesy has changed or the Aes Sedai (and the world) have misunderstood the prophesy, it still presents all kinds of problems. Primarily diminishing the conflict between “we have to gentle all men” and “one of these men is gonna be the DR.” 

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

[Re Power Ranger Nyn] Nyn saved the day once, then she was part of a circle at tarpons gap.

 

Um, what about in the cave with Logain? And in the Ways against Machin Shin? Or her special “better than the best warder of all time” tracking skillz?

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

[Re no Saidar / Saidin] There is saidar and saidin both words have been used now and it has been made clear both are different.

 

No it hasn’t. Like, not at all. And an extra bonus feature doesn’t count. Remember we’re taking “in world” again. The dichotomy has not at all been explained in the show. And they gave Mo plenty of monologues - where instead she did of “unreliable narrator”ing. What we know from the show, during the entire first season, is that there is a one power that men can’t channel without going mad. Oh - but they’ll just explain it later? That’s playing things more than a little fast and loose with the audience. This dichotomy is at the CORE of the story. Er, at least in the books. 

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

[Re Emoti Lan] This is a good character development, as he that matches the Lan of later in the books, book Lan in EOTW is dull, one dimensional and really would not track well on TV. This Lan can now have a duty vs desire internal struggle. If he hadn’t spent the night with Nyn then Morraine would not have escaped and would not now be shielded.

 

So you’re saying it was necessary to the plot? Trust me, we’ve seen that these writers can pull a rabbit out of the hat any way they want to go wherever they want to go. 

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

[Re sex] Lol RJ’s books where full of sex, have you read them? Not just normal sex, but kinky BDSM sex, orgies, casual sex, paid for sex, yes you faded to black and didn’t get the details generally but enough was there to let you know everyone was at it.

 

This isn’t about sex in general. It’s about who is having sex in this show, and when. The lesbian relationship between Moraine and Siuan is more than a little problematic for a certain other character. Oh maybe she’s bi! (Thrills running up leg). But the Nyn and Lan hookup is just the worst. That was a relationship that was supposed to build over time. A long time. And it completely changes Nyn’s character.

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

[Re the Eye and the Dumbest Plan in History] The eye is not the dark ones prison, again, just because a character thinks a thing does not make it fact in world. Morraine thought this was the last battle, she has built up

to this, allowed Rand to leave thinking it was done. Now realistation hits, she really had no idea and why should she.

 

Or maybe “the Eye” they went to wasn’t the Eye at all?! Yes there’s a million “well

maybe” justifications, but the unreliable narrator excuse is wearing thin. You are bending over backwards to try to justify the changes. But the bottom line is, this wasn’t even CLOSE to the Eye depicted in the books, or the story built around it. No Eden, no GM, no horn, no banner, no pool of Saidin, no Rand reveal. That was all GREAT in the book but somehow Rafe thought they could do better. And my god, it wasn’t even close to as good. 
 

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

[Re Rand’s reveal] No Rand always knew he just tried to avoid it, or ignore it. Which is how it is in the books for a long time before he embraces his destiny and yes we saw him knock on her door, I imagine there was a conversation but, really does the viewer need to see that not really. 

Was impacted by Covid restrictions hence you see the soldiers all handily stood 2 m apart, and cgi Trollocs so don’t see a proper fight. As for the Chanelling, ok yes as book readers we can pick all sorts of holes in that scene but really, for the non book reader, the scene works, my wife loved it. When I told her how the book ends, and Rands saves everyone, she told me she would have liked that less because it makes the other characters bit part players. Rand has plenty of time to have his big public reveal. 

 

The reveal simply wasn’t anywhere near as good as the book, and there was no reason to make the change. The reveal in the book was GREAT, and this is why I kept holding out hope for the show “ok, their really playing up this dumb “mystery” but I know it will all be cleaned up at the Eye. Just be patient….” And then we got this. For no good reason at all. 
 

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Now this I agree with, Rafe has sat down and planned out an entire 8 season story arc, this is very different to how books are created, yes RJ had plans in his head but, with each book, many things changed, stories got added, threads and journeys changed. I imagine there where many many alternatives to the way the story could have gone. 

Finally something we agree on. Rafe took an amazing set of books (I’m speaking specifically of Books 1-6) and decided to make massive changes, and those changes really don’t have anything to do with time constraints. 8 episodes was perfectly sufficient to give a faithful treatment to EOTW, especially when cutting Caemlyn (a change that made perfect sense if you were looking to save time). 

[nsmallw]

I enjoyed the Rand/Moraine arc most although I wasn't enthralled by how little action happened in a supposedly dangerous and deadly Blight.  The Man was superb and I enjoyed how they worked out a different arc than in Eye of the World book. 

 

I didn't like that Lan and Perrin literally did nothing but mope(Perrin) and walk casually(Lan) through a a a Blight that again,  is surprisingly peaceful for a reputed deadly place.  If l remember correctly, Lan hasn't fought a single trolloc or fade since episode 1 ! Please please someone tell me I'm wrong.

 

I didn't like the whole battle sequence. Better would have been to send reinforcements to the wall and have the 5 semi-sister ladies on top of the wall throwing fireballs/lightning.  Then a planned retreat to the horses being held on the "safe" side of the fortress and have a magnificent charge to defeat the remaining trollocs/fades. 

 

The wholesale changes to how Aes Sedai work was weird to me. As others have pointed out, 1 semi Accepted who couldn't pass the final Aes Sedai tests, 2 wilders and Nyneave/Egwene,  were able to crush all those T/F but 7 fully fledged sisters could barely defeat a raggly bunch of  Logain's scraggly soldiers. Just makes no sense to me. 

 

Why was the Horn sitting under Algemars chair ? Surely there are safer locations that are better guarded. 

Why seemingly kill Uno, a great character from the books, kill Ingtar and thus his amazing redemption arc in book 2 , and most infuriating seemingly killing Loial ! Yes, I know Judkins says he's alive but why even show it. Have Loial and Perrin actually do something heroic for a change!

 

The writing this season has been lackluster in my opinion and you can't blame that entirely on Covid. Far too many attempts to super-power the ladies, and too long with the Steppin arc. They need to have 10 episodes in future seasons with the premiere and finale eps at least 1 hr 30 min. 

 

There I'm done. Sorry if there were more negatives but I had such high hopes for ep 8 and I felt let down. I need to temper my expectations. 

[NetNightmare]

Well with Christmas and family I hadn't the time to comment on the Episode 8 ... most of what I wanted to say has already been said, so I ll try to make ti short :

 

1. LAN & Nynaeve ....  "I will hate the man you choose" speech, doesn't make sense NOW ... after the deed... I mean is just like saying... "I ll call you tomorrow...." just more romantic...(if you can be romantic dumping someone) I am baffled ...

 

2. The battle is , heck I don't know what it is ..., Tactically is all wrong I mean you don't have to be a general  or a genius to know is completely wrong...

 

3. PF Killing\Wounding Loial just like he is a cow at the slaughterhouse ....  but again Loial who ?

 

4. The Burnout\resurrection .... trying to obliterate it from my mind ...

 

5. Moraine Shielded\Stilled (I don't know why people care so much on the difference we are resurrecting people here ... healing stilling should be of no concern) threaten to slit Rand throat .... ha ha ha, really ??? girl he just neutralized you in 2 sec ... what is a knife ...when he can just make it crumble or maybe kill u on the spot....bah

 

6. the DO\Ishy saying "ooohh you got the Heron marked sword of your father\non father"... what is a heron marked sword ? nobody still cared to explained what it is ...or what it means (and god knows if someone will)

 

7. The Fades & PF came to party as soon as Perrin is done unearthing the Horn... (poor boy tried to help but failed again)

 

In the end a really bad ending for a Season that really never did shine..... I am starting to think that some details like The heron, Loial etc. has been thrown to appease the fan but serve no really purpose in the show...

 

And before someone start about the Budget\Covid\Time constraint\MAT departure ... that made this show subpar... I beg to differ ...IF they realized the show had suffered such a bad hit by those problems they could have postponed or whatever, I call it to laziness instead

 

anyway see ya on Season 2

Edited December 27, 2021 by NetNightmare

[CivBrit]

We're now at the end of an adaptation of book 1.

 

Nynaeve al'meara (with no training):

 

- heals an entire room full of people who were fatally injured by Logain

- holds back Mashin Shin with the power

- as part of a circle, destroys the army at Tarwin's gap

- tells Lan (a warder who has been traveling with Moiraine for over a decade) how to track Moiraine

 

Rand al'thor 

 

- knocks open a door

- knocks over a Trolloc

- whines a lot

- shoots a beam of light out of his hand (but only with the help of a sa'angreal

 

Ugh.

 

Then we have Lews Therin. Described by Jordan as the greatest man of his age, first among the servants, a master tactician, respected author and great leader. And what do we see of him? He gets dressed down by a woman who  apparently is the leader of the Aes Sedai. He is made to look reckless and unwise and he is warned that his plan will taint the male power (because somehow she is wise enough to forsee this). And since they're chatting on a balcony in a beautiful city with no signs of conflict or desperation around them, it just makes him look like an impetuous idiot going against the advice of his wiser superior.

 

Ugh.

 

That scene should have been Lews and Latra, both in military attire, looking war-weary but determined, addressing a council of Aes Sedai. "This is our desperate hour. We must strike now before all is lost. Our spies tell us the Forsaken are all gathered together near the bore. If we hit them hard and fast we can imprison them and their master forever". "No, a direct assault on the Dark One is too risky. Even you, strongest among us, cannot dare face him. We should rally our forces and retake the Choedan Kal. With such a powerful Sa'Angreal we can turn the tides".

 

And then they vote. The men side with Lews, the women with Latra. Latra looks at Lews gravely and says "Old friend, this is too bold, too risky. You will doom us all, Lews Therin Telamon".

 

[Elayas]

10 minutes ago, CivBrit said:

We're now at the end of an adaptation of book 1.

 

Nynaeve al'meara (with no training):

 

- heals an entire room full of people who were fatally injured by Logain

- holds back Mashin Shin with the power

- as part of a circle, destroys the army at Tarwin's gap

- tells Lan (a warder who has been traveling with Moiraine for over a decade) how to track Moiraine

 

Rand al'thor 

 

- knocks open a door

- knocks over a Trolloc

- whines a lot

- shoots a beam of light out of his hand (but only with the help of a sa'angreal

 

Ugh.

 

Then we have Lews Therin. Described by Jordan as the greatest man of his age, first among the servants, a master tactician, respected author and great leader. And what do we see of him? He gets dressed down by a woman who  apparently is the leader of the Aes Sedai. He is made to look reckless and unwise and he is warned that his plan will taint the male power (because somehow she is wise enough to forsee this). And since they're chatting on a balcony in a beautiful city with no signs of conflict or desperation around them, it just makes him look like an impetuous idiot going against the advice of his wiser superior.

 

Ugh.

 

That scene should have been Lews and Latra, both in military attire, looking war-weary but determined, addressing a council of Aes Sedai. "This is our desperate hour. We must strike now before all is lost. Our spies tell us the Forsaken are all gathered together near the bore. If we hit them hard and fast we can imprison them and their master forever". "No, a direct assault on the Dark One is too risky. Even you, strongest among us, cannot dare face him. We should rally our forces and retake the Choedan Kal. With such a powerful Sa'Angreal we can turn the tides".

 

And then they vote. The men side with Lews, the women with Latra. Latra looks at Lews gravely and says "Old friend, this is too bold, too risky. You will doom us all, Lews Therin Telamon".

 

Rafe dislikes men with a unhealthy passion and this is what we get served, a dish of mary sue BS vice a well balanced, intelligent show like the books.

[Sabio]

4 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

The eye is not the dark ones prison, again, just because a character thinks a thing does not make it fact in world. Morraine thought this was the last battle, she has built up

to this, allowed Rand to leave thinking it was done. Now realistation hits, she really had no idea and why should she. 

Seems to be the prison, Rand even mentioned when they arrived there that it seemed familiar.  Suggesting LTT went there when he tried to seal away the DO.

[flinn]

 The one thing this series has taught me, they could have an hour long episode of Siuan taking a dump on Perrin's head anda few people would rush here to tell us how great of an episode it was and wait until the payoff to judge.

 

 Then when the supposed pay-off never happens they will explain how it was great as a stand alone episode.

 

 There was some good in the tv show but there was a LOT of bad. Hopefully they can correct the bad in next season, but honestly I think season 3 will be the last season.

 

[Ralph]

20 minutes ago, Elayas said:

Rafe dislikes men with a unhealthy passion 

Hmmm

[Yojimbo]

54 minutes ago, NetNightmare said:

 

1. LAN & Nynaeve ....  "I will hate the man you choose" speech, doesn't make sense NOW ... after the deed... I mean is just like saying... "I ll call you tomorrow...." just more romantic...(if you can be romantic dumping someone) I am baffled ...

 

 

Yeah, doesn't quite have the same impact, does it?   Some might even see it as Lan being a bit of a jerk.  Gee, what a shock, this show showing men in a bad light.  Shocking I say!

Edited December 27, 2021 by Yojimbo

[Scarloc99]

29 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

 

It being “an in world thing” doesn’t make it any better. Whether the prophesy has changed or the Aes Sedai (and the world) have misunderstood the prophesy, it still presents all kinds of problems. Primarily diminishing the conflict between “we have to gentle all men” and “one of these men is gonna be the DR.” 

 

 

Um, what about in the cave with Logain? And in the Ways against Machin Shin? Or her special “better than the best warder of all time” tracking skillz?

 

 

No it hasn’t. Like, not at all. And an extra bonus feature doesn’t count. Remember we’re taking “in world” again. The dichotomy has not at all been explained in the show. And they gave Mo plenty of monologues - where instead she did of “unreliable narrator”ing. What we know from the show, during the entire first season, is that there is a one power that men can’t channel without going mad. Oh - but they’ll just explain it later? That’s playing things more than a little fast and loose with the audience. This dichotomy is at the CORE of the story. Er, at least in the books. 

 

 

So you’re saying it was necessary to the plot? Trust me, we’ve seen that these writers can pull a rabbit out of the hat any way they want to go wherever they want to go. 

 

 

This isn’t about sex in general. It’s about who is having sex in this show, and when. The lesbian relationship between Moraine and Siuan is more than a little problematic for a certain other character. Oh maybe she’s bi! (Thrills running up leg). But the Nyn and Lan hookup is just the worst. That was a relationship that was supposed to build over time. A long time. And it completely changes Nyn’s character.

 

 

Or maybe “the Eye” they went to wasn’t the Eye at all?! Yes there’s a million “well

maybe” justifications, but the unreliable narrator excuse is wearing thin. You are bending over backwards to try to justify the changes. But the bottom line is, this wasn’t even CLOSE to the Eye depicted in the books, or the story built around it. No Eden, no GM, no horn, no banner, no pool of Saidin, no Rand reveal. That was all GREAT in the book but somehow Rafe thought they could do better. And my god, it wasn’t even close to as good. 
 

 

The reveal simply wasn’t anywhere near as good as the book, and there was no reason to make the change. The reveal in the book was GREAT, and this is why I kept holding out hope for the show “ok, their really playing up this dumb “mystery” but I know it will all be cleaned up at the Eye. Just be patient….” And then we got this. For no good reason at all. 
 

Finally something we agree on. Rafe took an amazing set of books (I’m speaking specifically of Books 1-6) and decided to make massive changes, and those changes really don’t have anything to do with time constraints. 8 episodes was perfectly sufficient to give a faithful treatment to EOTW, especially when cutting Caemlyn (a change that made perfect sense if you were looking to save time). 

I will just say Robert Jordan himself stated that Aes Sedai are generally bi, he said that given they live so long then they are more likely to form long lasting romantic relationships with each other and Morraine and siuan being pillow friends was more then just sex 

[Scarloc99]

52 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Hmmm

I mean given he is himself an out gay man that can’t actually be true. 

[Scarloc99]

59 minutes ago, flinn said:

 The one thing this series has taught me, they could have an hour long episode of Siuan taking a dump on Perrin's head anda few people would rush here to tell us how great of an episode it was and wait until the payoff to judge.

 

 Then when the supposed pay-off never happens they will explain how it was great as a stand alone episode.

 

 There was some good in the tv show but there was a LOT of bad. Hopefully they can correct the bad in next season, but honestly I think season 3 will be the last season.

 

Don’t get me wrong there is a lot that confused me, to my mind it is a good fantasy series but at the end of season 1 is middle of the road for me. But I know a lot of non book readers who absolutely loved it. 
 

It might be that the payoffs don’t come off, I am a cup half full kind of person. I will say the nit picky arguments about some

things make no sense to complain about and I challenge those, for me, the production values and some of the dialogue and acting fell short and in this day and age with these limited series we as an audience are used to far better quality. I am forgiving alot in season 1 because of Covid, last min re writes due to an actor leaving, and hopefully actors finding there place in the show. I am giving it the benefit and also, acknowledging that, as Rafe has stated. This show was never made for the hardcore fans. The series is too high fantasy for the casual viewer so it needed to be changed ti make it consumable enough for a casual, don’t usually watch fantasy, viewer. With enough high fantasy there for those that like that and have never read the books. The WOT fan base was never going to be broad or large enough to warrant money being spent on a tv adaptation. 

[CanisNoir]

I really don't understand the complain that "They nerfed the men and buffed the women". It's as though a demonstration of raw power is the only signal of someone's "greatness" to people, which is just silly in my opinion. 

Yes Nynaeve is getting what I call the "Tyrion" treatment and the show has put more of a focus on her character than the first book did. But she is still overly prideful, set in her ways even when she's wrong, and let's her temper get the better of her causing her to make some poor choices. 

Egwene thinks too highly of herself, is a bit self centered and professes to love a man she obviously doesn't truly understand. 

Rand occasionally sniped at Egwene for leaving him but honestly, held it all together fairly well considering his entire life was ripped away from him mid Episode 1. While struggling with his own internal demons, he still manages to try his best to protect his friends. Every decision he makes in Episode 7 and 8 revolve around him trying to protect people, including Moiraine whom isn't a friend of his. At the end of Episode 8, he is the only person of the group who treats Moiraine as an equal, and is treated by her as one. Rand knows the woman he loves, he knew she would go  to the White Tower and he knew the Egwene of Ishy's vision wasn't the Egwene he was in love with. Rand appears to be the most emotionally mature of the E5 at the end of Episode 8. 

Heck, in Episode 3 we see that Perrin knows Rand better than Egwene does and in Episode 8 Perrin shows the depth of his loyalty to both Rand and Egwene when he says he loves Rand and that he and Egwene would always be okay. 

Yes, his character was done a little dirty due to the Mat sized hole in the episode, but he never came across as "weak" to me. All of our male characters have been given some pretty nasty emotional stuff to work out, while Nynaeve and Egwene are just dealing with the adventure. 

 

The same could be said for Algalmar and Amalisa. Yes, they made him slightly arrogant and ignoring Amalisa's early warnings, but in the end, Algalmar sacrificed himself in order to give the world time, while Amalisa became drunk on the power and killed herself, two other women and almost Nynaeve. I'd say Agalmar is the sibling that came out of that one looking the best. 

 

Raw, untrained, demonstrations of power is not what makes a character "great", it's the characters actions that make them noble and personally, I'd say this show has *not* pushed down men in order to make women seem stronger. The women are strong in their own right, as are the men. They may display that strength in different ways, but it's strength all the same.

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, CivBrit said:

We're now at the end of an adaptation of book 1.

 

Nynaeve al'meara (with no training):

 

- heals an entire room full of people who were fatally injured by Logain

- holds back Mashin Shin with the power

- as part of a circle, destroys the army at Tarwin's gap

- tells Lan (a warder who has been traveling with Moiraine for over a decade) how to track Moiraine

 

Rand al'thor 

 

- knocks open a door

- knocks over a Trolloc

- whines a lot

- shoots a beam of light out of his hand (but only with the help of a sa'angreal

 

Ugh.

 

Then we have Lews Therin. Described by Jordan as the greatest man of his age, first among the servants, a master tactician, respected author and great leader. And what do we see of him? He gets dressed down by a woman who  apparently is the leader of the Aes Sedai. He is made to look reckless and unwise and he is warned that his plan will taint the male power (because somehow she is wise enough to forsee this). And since they're chatting on a balcony in a beautiful city with no signs of conflict or desperation around them, it just makes him look like an impetuous idiot going against the advice of his wiser superior.

 

Ugh.

 

That scene should have been Lews and Latra, both in military attire, looking war-weary but determined, addressing a council of Aes Sedai. "This is our desperate hour. We must strike now before all is lost. Our spies tell us the Forsaken are all gathered together near the bore. If we hit them hard and fast we can imprison them and their master forever". "No, a direct assault on the Dark One is too risky. Even you, strongest among us, cannot dare face him. We should rally our forces and retake the Choedan Kal. With such a powerful Sa'Angreal we can turn the tides".

 

And then they vote. The men side with Lews, the women with Latra. Latra looks at Lews gravely and says "Old friend, this is too bold, too risky. You will doom us all, Lews Therin Telamon".

 

Personally I’d rather keep the scene purely between LTT and LPD instead of losing focus by including a bunch of nobodies. The one thing I’d prefer and maybe it’s stupid but I wish they were simply walking. Movement alone would give the impression of urgency, maybe have some extras in a hurry to show this is not a calm tea time break but an end of the world period. 
 

The main things that should be touched on is:

 

- LTT begging LPD to end the concord and her opposition to his plan 

- LPD resolute in her refusal, pointing out the risks are too great

- LTT acknowledging the risks, but insisting there is no other choice, time is up, the shadow is on the cusp of victory and the Chodean Kal will soon be lost

- LPD insists the access keys will be recovered and she maintains her refusal to cooperate with LTT’s plan

- Once she leaves show LTT decide to put his plan in to motion regardless

 

Maybe name drop a couple forsaken, show a touch of LTT being too certain of himself, perhaps show LTT as leader of the Light (and tie that in to him being too certain).

 

But especially show the urgency, the desperation, the Light’s being on the brink of destruction, and the fact that both sides are right in a way. The whole tragedy of the tainting of Saidin is that it was actually the best case scenario at that point. Had either LTT or LPD not acted as they did the result would have been even worse. And it’s very much hinted that the wheel intended for this to happen, what with the shadow accidentally taking then facilities where the access keys were made.

 

Or you know maybe just read the Strike at Shayol Ghul!

Edited December 27, 2021 by MasterAblar

[WoTwasThat]

23 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean given he is himself an out gay man that can’t actually be true. 

Yeah, I don’t think Rafe hates men. Or masculinity. But this does bring to mind an interview I read where Rafe said that reading WOT with his mom while growing up gay in Utah was a formative experience for him, and this is why the strong female characters in WOT have such appeal to him - the connection to his mom. I think it might have been this one. 
 

https://www.creativescreenwriting.com/writing-the-emotional-storyline-rafe-judkins-on-the-wheel-of-time/

 

And when I read that, I was like “uh oh… that’s concerning.” And then I chastised myself for thinking that, because it was stereotypical and didn’t actually mean he would make wholesale changes to the plot to fit his lens. But then he did exactly what I was worried about. I think “misandry” is too strong a word, but it’s close to what we’re seeing so far. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by WoTwasThat

[CivBrit]

6 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Personally I’d rather keep the scene purely between LTT and LPD instead of losing focus by including a bunch of nobodies. The one I’d prefer and maybe it’s stupid but I wish they were simply walking. Movement alone would give the impression of urgency, maybe have some extras in a hurry to show this is not a calm tea time break but and end of the world period. 
 

The main things that should be touched on is:

 

- LTT begging LPD to end the concord and her opposition to his plan 

- LPD resolute in her refusal, pointing out the risks are too great

- LTT acknowledging the risks, but insisting there is no other choice, time is up, the shadow is on the cusp of victory and the Chodean Kal will soon be lost

- LPD insists the access keys will be recovered and she maintains her refusal to cooperate with LTT’s plan

- Once she leaves show LTT decide to put his plan in to motion regardless

 

Maybe name drop a couple forsaken, show a touch of LTT being too certain of himself, perhaps show LTT as leader of the Light (and tie that in to him being too certain).

 

But especially show the urgency, the desperation, the Light’s being on the brink of destruction, and the fact that both sides are right in way. The whole tragedy of the tainting of Saidin is that it was actually the best case scenario at that point. Had either LTT or LPD not acted as they did the result would have been even worse. And it’s very much hinted that the wheel intended for this to happen, what with the shadow accidentally taking then facilities where the access keys were made.

 

Or you know maybe just read the Strike at Shayol Ghul!

 

Agreed on all counts, I like your version better. But either way, you get the point. What we actually got in the show didn't sell the urgency, and didn't paint LTT in a good light at all.

[MasterAblar]

8 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

I really don't understand the complain that "They nerfed the men and buffed the women". It's as though a demonstration of raw power is the only signal of someone's "greatness" to people, which is just silly in my opinion. 

Yes Nynaeve is getting what I call the "Tyrion" treatment and the show has put more of a focus on her character than the first book did. But she is still overly prideful, set in her ways even when she's wrong, and let's her temper get the better of her causing her to make some poor choices. 

Egwene thinks too highly of herself, is a bit self centered and professes to love a man she obviously doesn't truly understand. 

Rand occasionally sniped at Egwene for leaving him but honestly, held it all together fairly well considering his entire life was ripped away from him mid Episode 1. While struggling with his own internal demons, he still manages to try his best to protect his friends. Every decision he makes in Episode 7 and 8 revolve around him trying to protect people, including Moiraine whom isn't a friend of his. At the end of Episode 8, he is the only person of the group who treats Moiraine as an equal, and is treated by her as one. Rand knows the woman he loves, he knew she would go  to the White Tower and he knew the Egwene of Ishy's vision wasn't the Egwene he was in love with. Rand appears to be the most emotionally mature of the E5 at the end of Episode 8. 

Heck, in Episode 3 we see that Perrin knows Rand better than Egwene does and in Episode 8 Perrin shows the depth of his loyalty to both Rand and Egwene when he says he loves Rand and that he and Egwene would always be okay. 

Yes, his character was done a little dirty due to the Mat sized hole in the episode, but he never came across as "weak" to me. All of our male characters have been given some pretty nasty emotional stuff to work out, while Nynaeve and Egwene are just dealing with the adventure. 

 

The same could be said for Algalmar and Amalisa. Yes, they made him slightly arrogant and ignoring Amalisa's early warnings, but in the end, Algalmar sacrificed himself in order to give the world time, while Amalisa became drunk on the power and killed herself, two other women and almost Nynaeve. I'd say Agalmar is the sibling that came out of that one looking the best. 

 

Raw, untrained, demonstrations of power is not what makes a character "great", it's the characters actions that make them noble and personally, I'd say this show has *not* pushed down men in order to make women seem stronger. The women are strong in their own right, as are the men. They may display that strength in different ways, but it's strength all the same.

Agreed, overall I don’t care who gets “badass” moments, there’s so many of them in the series everyone will get theirs.

 

Only thing that bothers me is when characters are changed for seemingly no reason. The change to Agalmar making him frankly disrespectful and rude to Moiraine, and then arrogant to boot just seems pointless to me. They could have had him resentful at Shienar suffering so much when the southerners barely believe in shadowspawn if they wanted to add stuff to him.

[nsmallw]

On 12/24/2021 at 9:45 AM, DigificWriter said:

Even though I find the vehemence of this negativity amusing, it also says some really unflattering things about the people engaging in it, especially when said people start to imply that anyone who doesn't share the negativity - even amongst hardcore book readers - is 'the other' and that people can't possibly genuinely enjoy the series without being 'shills'.

As opposed to the ardent defenders of everything Rafe and company do, calling those who feel differently "Whitecloaks" and "Darkfriends".  Let's be fair about both sides acting like silly children. 

[Scarloc99]

13 minutes ago, CivBrit said:

 

Agreed on all counts, I like your version better. But either way, you get the point. What we actually got in the show didn't sell the urgency, and didn't paint LTT in a good light at all.

I felt really meh about this reveal, in the books I remember being blown away by the fact that the breaking had been so complete, taking a world that is so advanced back to the dark ages. In the tv series the reveal felt like it fell much flatter. 

[JaimAybara]

12 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Agreed, overall I don’t care who gets “badass” moments, there’s so many of them in the series everyone will get theirs.

 

Only thing that bothers me is when characters are changed for seemingly no reason. The change to Agalmar making him frankly disrespectful and rude to Moiraine, and then arrogant to boot just seems pointless to me. They could have had him resentful at Shienar suffering so much when the southerners barely believe in shadowspawn if they wanted to add stuff to him.

If everyone will get their moment…why intentionally remove almost every great moment for all the men in season one, but not only stop there, give those moments to the women? You yourself just said they all get great moments so why do they need the men’s moments?
 

On your second point I agree completely. They did that multiple times throughout the season and it bothered me every time. 

 

this section was for the previous commenter you were talking to:  Even Aes Sedai defer to one another based on their raw powers. So, yeah, someone’s badassery is important as it reveals them to be a threat. None of the main men are threats as of yet, and I don’t really have any reason to care about the Dragon Reborn, in any age. 

[TheDreadReader]

21 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

And when I read that, I was like “uh oh… that’s concerning.” And then I chastised myself for thinking that, because it was stereotypical and didn’t actually mean he would make wholesale changes to the plot to fit his lens. But then he did exactly what I was worried about. I think “misandry” is too strong a word, but it’s close to what we’re seeing so far. 

 

Or, it is just the most logical set of decisions based on RJ's basic assumptions in building out his world. 

 

This touches on a frustration I have with some negative commentary on RJ's writing of women in the books.   He was writing women in the context of a different social construction of reality so they would naturally be written different from our social construction of reality.    

 

I see the show similarly.  Women within the show's reality have "privilege" because they are less apt to go insane from channeling and that has primary, secondary, and tertiary effects on how societies develop.

 

So, many of the choices that Rafe and Co have made are perfectly in line with the books.  They are just the parts that a lot of readers can skip or gloss over as they read through them.

 

The real question becomes less a point about our society but about Rafe's willingness to deconstruct those speculative ideas in the same way that RJ did.      They've put some of Rand's challenging authority in the show already but will they continue to build on it?  That's still an open one.

 

 

 

[Chadouken]

8 hours ago, Raezold said:

Non of my friends are still watching. And they certainly aren't going to read the books now, no matter how much I jump up and down screaming the books aren't so shite as the show.

I didn't even consider this. I wonder how many people Rafe is completely ruining Wheel of Time for?  I have to wonder if my introduction to Jordan's world was through Rafe's lense, would that make me not want to read the books? That's an unfortunate outcome.

[CanisNoir]

27 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Agreed, overall I don’t care who gets “badass” moments, there’s so many of them in the series everyone will get theirs.

 

Only thing that bothers me is when characters are changed for seemingly no reason. The change to Agalmar making him frankly disrespectful and rude to Moiraine, and then arrogant to boot just seems pointless to me. They could have had him resentful at Shienar suffering so much when the southerners barely believe in shadowspawn if they wanted to add stuff to him.

 

I agree, I wasn't too happy with the way they introduced his Character. It seemed to me they did it simply so that Moiraine could "put him in his place", but then again Moiraine said "I'm not here to advise you" and then went ahead and advised him, so while he came across as a little disrespectful, she came off as a little naggy. Neither were painted in a great light.  As the audience we empathize more with Moiraine though because she is our main protagonist. But like I said, in the end, Agalmar went out like a boss, his honor intact. Meanwhile Moiraine was played by Ishmael and Amalisa lost control and killed people. 

 

So there are definitely some choices I'm not the biggest fan of, but I don't necessarily see the choices being the result of intentionally trying to "lessen" men. 

 

To be honest, I thought the Perrin \ Egween "White Cloak" scene was a bit of a Rorschach test for the audience. People seemed to have a more visceral reaction to Egwene being roughly bathed than they did for Perrin having his back flayed open.  Given a choice, yea, bathe me roughly please lol. Yet still, they would not have escaped had it not been for Perrin, overcoming the tremendous physical pain, standing up to Valda and having his wolf brothers provide cover while they got out of the camp. The only thing Egwene did is burn through Perrin and her bonds, then poorly stab Valda while mistakenly believing him dead.

 

I really do believe a lot of what I feel were short comings of the show could have been fixed with two more episodes giving the characters some time to really interact with each other. Getting through the Eye so quickly, though, gives me hope that we'll get to see some of that in future seasons.