tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[fra85uk]

At this point one should wonder: will they give to any male character the awesome moments that they get in the book?

After all, we spent all Season listening to "oh but in the end they will give justice to Rand" and in the end his big moment got transformed in another Marysue OP stuff.

And this after they literally spent all Season constantly downplaying every single male character of the series. 

 

[VooDooNut]

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

At this point one should wonder: will they give to any male character the awesome moments that they get in the book?

After all, we spent all Season listening to "oh but in the end they will give justice to Rand" and in the end his big moment got transformed in another Marysue OP stuff.

And this after they literally spent all Season constantly downplaying every single male character of the series. 

 

Yes.

[Guest Testeria]

On 12/24/2021 at 6:36 AM, Kelin said:

Men... actually nothing comes to mind, except the fight in the very first episode.

 

False dragon killed few Aes Sedai, no?

[Yojimbo]

59 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Show watchers and Moiraine think he was the Dark One. Exactly as the books. 

But does she really believe that?   I seem to remember her telling him he was a fool if he really thought he had killed the DO.   

[fra85uk]

30 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Yes.

Like they did it with Rand at Tarwin Gap or Perrin vs. Whitecloacks or Agelmar, one of the Great generals, transformed in an unrespectful mansplaining idiot etc etc etc

[Chivalry]

45 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

At this point one should wonder: will they give to any male character the awesome moments that they get in the book?

After all, we spent all Season listening to "oh but in the end they will give justice to Rand" and in the end his big moment got transformed in another Marysue OP stuff.

And this after they literally spent all Season constantly downplaying every single male character of the series. 

 

 

I'm trying to ignore some of the apparent evidence and not view the adaptation in this light. 

 

However, I do feel the WOT team has made plenty of strange choices, both in how they elevate some characters and how they diminish others. Moraine is a perfect example of this. She's the show's MVP, but her character is strangely diminished in this adaptation. Perhaps that fits with the goal of democratizing the story, but that's not how RJ built his mythology. First he built up, then he brought down...think of the character arcs (in the books) of Moraine, Siuan, and the White Tower in general. 

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Chivalry

[MasterAblar]

Eh Perrin with the Whitecloaks isn't really an awesome moment. I would however say that it was a key moment for the character and it's sorely missing. Killing his wife is a very different flavor. 

 

Agalmar was done dirty, 100%, and I really don't understand why they dirtied his character like that.

 

Mostly though Rand at Tarwin's gap is the only really exceptional moment in the first book, and while I'm sad not to see it, I did kinda of expect it. Having Rand do everything in the last episode would have been odd seeing as they're trying to focus on the ensemble earlier on. It worked in the book because the book was completely focused on him. On the other hand I really would have liked for him to have a moment at the Eye, giving him a chance to show his power.

[MasterAblar]

Just now, Chivalry said:

 

I'm trying to ignore some of the apparent evidence and not view the adaptation in this light. 

 

However, I do feel the WOT team has made plenty of strange choices, both in how they elevate some characters and how they diminish others. Moraine is a perfect example of this. She's the show's MVP, but her character is strangely diminished in this adaptation. Perhaps that fits with the goal of democratizing the story, but that's not how RJ built his mythology. First he built up, then he brought down...think of the character arcs of Moraine, Siuan, and the White Tower in general. 

 

 

Honestly most of the characters in the show have been made far less competent than they were in the books. Moiraine, Lan, Agelmar, LTT and LPD (however brief), Tam (somewhat). Rand is mainly a lack of opportunity. It's a puzzling choice. Nyneave is the only one going in the other direction, and honestly while I'm not overjoyed with her feat in the Ways, I do think these powerful uncontrolled outburst of power fit her character. 

[RhienneAgain]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

Amalisa scene was terrible.

Contrast it with Moiraine at the start.

Moiraine a experienced powerful Aes Sedai has trouble dealing with 50 trollocs.

Amalisa a Tower wash out coupled with 1 powerful channeler (Nyn) 1 newbie who has been channeling for a month (Egw) and 2 randoms from the city who are not Aes Sedai. And they wipe out a force of at least 10,000 trollocs.

 

Simply unbelievable.

Stupid for them to be standing outside by themselves unless they knew the level of destruction that they could perform. All for the sake of what Judkins thought would look like a cool shot of the trollocs charging 5 women alone on the battlefield.

It also goes against the whole idea that the White Tower only lets people leave when they have learned enough to use the one power safely and not hurt themselves or others.  Why would they teach Amalisa to lead a circle if they weren't going to teach her to withstand the allure of drawing too much of the one power?

[RhienneAgain]

Can someone explain to me what has happened to Lan's bond as of the end of season 1?  I think from his final scene with Moiraine that they are still bonded to each other and the bond is just (semi-?) permanently masked..?  Won't that really diminish the impact of breaking the bond later in the series..?  I'm a bit lost on this.

[VooDooNut]

3 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

It also goes against the whole idea that the White Tower only lets people leave when they have learned enough to use the one power safely and not hurt themselves or others.  Why would they teach Amalisa to lead a circle if they weren't going to teach her to withstand the allure of drawing too much of the one power?

They may not have taught her. It's possible she overheard Aes Sedai practicing the technique while she was a novice/accepted and recklessly attempted it herself.

[Chivalry]

1 minute ago, RhienneAgain said:

It also goes against the whole idea that the White Tower only lets people leave when they have learned enough to use the one power safely and not hurt themselves or others.  Why would they teach Amalisa to lead a circle if they weren't going to teach her to withstand the allure of drawing too much of the one power?

I'm thinking it's because Amalisa never could draw on much power to begin with. So she's overwhelmed and basically overdosed on the Power.

 

But I don't think the writers are quite the sticklers we are when it comes to these types of details...like calling LTT the Dragon Reborn instead of the Dragon. Or not having Lan/Moraine comment on the significance of Rand's possession of a Heron-marked blade, when that's the WOT equivalent of a homeless/unhoused person flashing a Rolex.

[Yojimbo]

2 hours ago, Cellardur said:

 

Other complaints are about just how capable Lan is. I am still not aware that Lan is the greatest swordsman and tracker of his age. I am near the end of third book and I get that Lan is exceptional, but nothing to suggest he is the best of even the Warders. I would guess that Suan and Leanne probably have better Warders. Also nothing indicates he is any better than the other swordsman who have Heron blades, let alone people who use other weapons.

 

 

 

It actually is stated flat out that Lan is the best of the Warders, which means the best of the best.  IIRC Agelmar says that exact thing when they come to Fal Dara before leaving for the Blight. 

[first when not last]

It is true that in all the old stories in our world where there is more than one accounts differ, and sometimes differ substantially. So that for me the fact that one writer approached WoT from one way, and a crew of other writers approach it from another is not automatically a turn-off. One reason I did not care a lot for the Game of Thrones series in the end is not that the writers changed some things, it's that they didn't even follow their own logic for the story in many cases. I've been hopeful and fairly satisfied through Ep 7 that the show's writers, even if they have a somewhat different vision, would stay true to it. But in Episode 8 there are some glaring signs of both sloppiness and difficulty staying true to their own premises.

 

Sloppiness first, since the two bits I have in mind are fairly obvious. First, and probably more important, in the books it was clear Moiraine knew the five young people were Ta'veren. Yet she wants to take four of them to the Eye of the World when she is certain three of them will die. All of then have a necessary role to play,not just the Dragon, and Moiraine knows, or should know this. Then of course, in the blight, Moiraine tells  Rand not to touch anything, but they are both touching and being touched by the rotten trees and shrubs the entire time. A little more deftness in the writing could have taken care of the second of these items. In the first one the writers went for suspense over story (happens a lot in TV writing). It's amazing how in these series, the writers have such a hard time getting past typical TV cliches.

 

I didn't really mind the basics of how the five inexperienced channelers were able to take out the entire shadow spawn army. After all Amalisa was just making a desperate last stand. She had no idea at all of the power Egwene and Nynaeve were packing. But to another detail. Where Nynaeve falls toward the end of the Circle, it does look like she's dead at first. This probably is ok. I caught on pretty fast to the idea she was injured and in a bad way and not dead. But, in the final pan over the throne room after Padan Fain has left, there is indication at all that Loial and Uno are still alive. I know they were doing that (once again) to amp the suspense, but the web must have blown up at them last night for the show runner to make a direct point that the two are still alive. It would have been pretty easy to show those two moving around and groaning, and the showrunner could have kept his mouth shut. Once again, suspense over story.

 

So why all the TV tropes over story things that all but ruined Game of Thrones and looks like it could possibly ruin WoT? Well, these shows cost a lot of money to make, and the showrunners and everyone else are under pressure to make it all back. They don't have the artistic luxury David Chase had with the Sopranos and David Simon had with The Wire. I think with the fantasy shows the TV tropes are how the writers show the bosses they do, really do, want the show to be successful and to have broad appeal. Any of us who want the straight story are going to just have to head back to the books and put up with all the tooth grinding and the various, sometimes extraneous, damsel in distress scenarios in which Jordan often set up his female characters.

 

Another thing, the writers are overselling the female predominance in effect in Jordan's world. Jordan kind of undersold it, but once I caught on it was, "Oh! Ok, Now I see!" and it felt completely natural. The way the show is doing this it doesn't quite feel that way.

[Guest Testeria]

My wife predicts that in the last season Rand will break a world like a dragon reborn and then Egwene and Nynaeve will save it with one power.

 

Reading the comments here I'm very glad I haven't read the books yet. Maybe I stop after the first and wait until 2-nd season with the next.

[Cellardur]

32 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

It actually is stated flat out that Lan is the best of the Warders, which means the best of the best.  IIRC Agelmar says that exact thing when they come to Fal Dara before leaving for the Blight. 

Thanks for this. I missed it. I know after Agelmar tries to get Morraine to help he then tries to get Lan to join and states how men would flock to his banner and it would be a great boost for moral.

[Elayas]

Episode 8 is an aboration of Jordan;s source material.  Rafe is a terrible showrunner as this series has been killed by the dark one.  The wolves tell me we should stay clear of episode 8 and any follow on seasons until the showrunner and writers pay respect the Jordan's masterpieces.  The pack is not happy and the vision Dapple sent was a wolf raising a back leg soiling all over the script.  They are not pleased and will be in a mood for a week or more now. 

This show really sucks,

- The writing and dialogue is sub-standard, forced with no rhythm,

- The shows pacing is frantic without centering on a key storyarc's moving the plot along, it is all over the place

- The sets look like a poor CW series

- Casting is suspect see Nynaeve, Egwene, Perrin.  No idea if Rand is up to the task as Rafe will not let him shine

- Rafe is a sexist against men, That is not inline with the books at all.  Men and women had goods, bads and others but were both were treated with respect thru trials that heroes go thru.   He has Mary sue disease = less fans, a lot less fans.  In case anyone is wondering Dapple, Hopper and Burn cannot stand this about the show.  

- The showrunner's ability tops out at the high school play level.   I could do a better job and never run a set in my life but guarantee you the story would follow the books hence I would be a star among the 2 legs delivering where the showrunner cannot.  Dapple is nodding her head 

 

This is not the Wheel of Time, this is the Wheel of Bait and Switch.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Elayas

[Spiritweaver1]

1 hour ago, Yojimbo said:

But does she really believe that?   I seem to remember her telling him he was a fool if he really thought he had killed the DO.   

You are right about that.  In the book Rand named him and got his eye for it.  She tells him that a couple of times as the books roll along

 

54 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

Can someone explain to me what has happened to Lan's bond as of the end of season 1?  I think from his final scene with Moiraine that they are still bonded to each other and the bond is just (semi-?) permanently masked..?  Won't that really diminish the impact of breaking the bond later in the series..?  I'm a bit lost on this.

Who could tell you?  There are only one or two people on this forum with access to the scripts.  There was a fine layout of this episode prior to it dropping elsewhere.  After this disaster of an episode who can tell where they are going.  I just know that right now, 20 minutes after watching  E8 I am thinking of jumping off this crazy train for the following reasons.

 

Unnecessary and way less effective departures from the story,  Loial not defending himself?  Ogier do not follow the Way of the Leaf.  Perrin not picking up the ax to fight evil when they were there fighting and Loial was killed.  I want Young Bull,  Loial getting apparently killed?  The whole plot about the bore and the seals.  Where is the Eye of the World?  Why did they feel like they had to cut that out?  Completely unnecessary.  Plot holes everywhere.  Since apparently there are no rules in Rafeland then certainly anything can happen. To say nothing of the Green Man.  Amazon owns the rights to LOTR surely they could have tweaked the Ent renderings.

 

The blight was a terrible version and wasn't scary at all. Look up the definition  of blight.  There have been numerous others pointing out the  writing fails regarding the journey into the blight.  

 

My predictions of plot holes a plenty have come true in this episode. I will say it again.  If they don't get back to the RJ's story they are going to keep making episodes like this and the story won't go beyond season 3.  

 

So apparently Rand goes off without learning to use his sword from Lan.  They are skipping Toman Head because there were no clues left and Rand doesn't even know the  Horn has been stolen so even if there were clues he is wandering around aimlessly in the blight.  

 

There are a sizable contingent in this community complaining about the treatment of the men characters in this season.  I have smiled smugly and said just wait for the season finale.  Quit thinking the show has it in for the male characters.  I fall on my knees to you now and beg your forgiveness.  You were right and I was wrong.  This show is going down a sexist path and apparently RJ's story is gonna be the victim.   The evidence:

 

 (1) The rendering of LTT in E8 as arrogant  and not desperate.   He went against mom and apparently the world got spanked for it.  

 

(2) Rand not taking the sa'angreal (if we can't afford an eye) and smashing the fade army.  He is the dragon reborn.  All he can do is screw up and break the seal. Can't kill a forsaken or even a mosquito.  Apparently there aren't 7 seals that the Aes Sedai have lost.  Can't have them losing anything wrong image.

 

(3) Untrained and unskilled women channelers defeating the Fade army.  Where as the men do nothing but die or be wounded.

 

(4) Egwene who has showed next to no skills channeling suddenly can heal somebody who is burned out if not dead.  In the books that was Nyn who figured that out.

 

In summary, you have Loial apparently killed, Rand doesn't even get to kill one Forsaken and Perrin standing around like a statue, Matt is apparently going to be a dark friend who marries Liandrin.    All the keeps 30 or so male defenders die.  

 

Anyway the pattern has revealed itself.  And it doesn't sing to me.  This was by far the worst episode for me and if I don't get over it I will not be coming back.  This story is not a good on for me.

 

To end on a positive note in a mostly negative dose of raw sheepstongue root  There were a couple of things I thought they did well. 

 

The foreshadowing of his future split personality (LTT) disorder as the madness takes him. 

 

The adaptation  story telling can't get any worse than this episode without shorting out every TV in the world. 

 

In summary, Rafe and Co seem to think you can magically make a great fantasy series without doing the work of making up a detailed world with strong characters, detailed world building, and realistic plots (consistent with the rules of the local universe).  I foretell that if they don't change their ways they will find out how wrong they are.  They need to learn to surrender to the source if they want to approach this adaptation from the female perspective as seems the case,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Spiritweaver1
Do a bit of editing not much rewrite

[WhiteVeils]

Not re-reading the whole thread but the seanchen definitely have collars and bracelets...they just look a lot different than what I imagined.

[Raezold]

  

5 hours ago, JenniferL said:

I understand. I live in Atlanta. Snow is a terrifying thing for us. 
 

Anyways, let’s get back on topic. What did everyone think about Amalisa? She clearly trained enough to make Accepted if she knew enough to make a link. But the lack of discipline that led to her losing control of the circle is clearly why she didn’t go further. 

 

I think it was poop. I have a very hard time believing Aes Sedai teach Accepted, who aren't going to make it to full Sister, how to call down lightning from the sky.

But..., if they do teach that, and how to link with others, it's somewhat believable that she loses control I guess. But then it's still poop the others are killed. There simply is no reason to poop all over the lore like that.

 

And like others have already pointed out, why, in the name of the Light, would you go stand there in the field? Totally unbelievable. Then again, her brother is a total tool as well so I guess it runs in the family.

[Mailman]

10 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Not re-reading the whole thread but the seanchen definitely have collars and bracelets...they just look a lot different than what I imagined.

The look certainly is imposing, it could have some issues later if the gold piece impedes speech as the Damane are able to speak in the books and certainly for when Egwene especially is held captive.

[Spiritweaver1]

33 minutes ago, Mailman said:

The look certainly is imposing, it could have some issues later if the gold piece impedes speech as the Damane are able to speak in the books and certainly for when Egwene especially is held captive.

The whole thing is plot foolishness.  The Seanchan aren't sending a tidal wave to a deserted beach to drown one girl.  They conquer and make people reswear their oaths.  Bah humbug

[Ralph]

To give this more of an ensemble feel, we gave pieces of what happened in that finale to each of them, and then maintained the piece that's most important for Rand and his journey for him. We gave the girls something that's very important for what their story is going to be in Season Two, book fans will know where they're headed and why, what that moment means to them moving forward. And then likewise for Perrin and where he's headed with the Horn of Valere. It felt like a really natural way to set up where all those characters were going in season two, deliver all of the pieces of the finale from the book, but spread out more evenly amongst the characters.

 

Rafe in https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/wheel-of-time-episode-8-spoilers-rafe-judkins-interview/

 

Does he mean training in the White Tower? Seanchan? 

[7th age]

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

2) Surprised people are saying Rand didn't have a major moment. He didn't have a moment that was visually impressive, but afawk in the show he defeated the DO, who had just dealt with M in two seconds flat. If we think about it that is far more impressive than any armies of Trollocs.

 

Not sure what you saw that makes you think what he did was impressive besides not going over to the dark( I kinda liek their conversation and Fares makes an excellent Ishy, on the other hand I feel this kind of discussion is too aMoL).

What I saw was Rand channeling through a Sa angreal that "increases his power a hundredfold", yet the power he wields is clearly below what Nynaeve wields on several occasions, so either the Sa angreal doesnt amplify the power that much or Rand must be pretty weak.

 

More importantly though, rewatch the sequence when he channels.( 44:20)

1. He breaks the seal/eye

2. If you watch closely you can see Ishy smiling at the last second before they cut away to Rand.

 

Once it becomes clear, that Ishy isnt dead and that now the Forsaken are loose I dont see how anyone could count this as a win.

 

I asked this earlier in the thread but didnt get a reaction,  can anyone tell me any upside of what Rand and M. did here?

He/They didnt get  Horn or Banner, he didnt save the army, he very clearly breaks the seal/eye and since no other forsaken are there (i.e. showing that the seals broke/weakened before and not as a consequence of Rands channeling) I can only presume that this is the moment where the Dragon frees them from their prison....

 

[Mailman]

4 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

The whole thing is plot foolishness.  The Seanchan aren't sending a tidal wave to a deserted beach to drown one girl.  They conquer and make people reswear their oaths.  Bah humbug

I was only taking about the look of what im assuming is the Damane with the gold object covering the mouth and possibly the shoulder as the equivalent of the leash.

 

I wholly agree that the tidal wave onto a deserted beach was ridiculous. Its not even like they where trying to destroy naval defenses it was yet another example of a scene that was inserted simply because someone thought it would look cool. Adding in the lone small girl just made it even more stupid.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Mailman