tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[Spiritweaver1]

1 hour ago, Deviations said:

My point is that with Last of the Mohicans, they got us invested in the relationship with a few looks and a helping hand up a steep climb.  They didn't need more than what Jordan wrote.  They don't need to hit us over the head with this stuff.  The audience is capable of dealing with subtlety.

1. Lan being impressed by her tracking

2. Her being impressed by him finding her horse

2. A few looks

4. Her telling him "some men are strong enough, I know one such"

I really like this post.  Human beings are a spectrum in many different dimensions.  One of which is imagination.  For me I like the subtle story telling approach both in film and other media.  I have always had a great imagination.  I have met folk who have none.  Their world is solid and concrete.  People aren't having sex unless we see sex organs in motion as the Norwegian censors used to put it.  So the story teller who is trying to tell a very long story well has to make decisions about the general audience.  Thus the team working for the Amazon overlords have to appeal to the less imaginative amongst us to maximize who gets it.  Ths is not to denigrate what you said.  I believe the same.  It is just that the writing team has a different assessment of the audience.   

[ArrylT]

13 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Didn't even think about that second point and I should have, since it's clear Rafe is treating books 1-3 as a singular story to adapt.  This fits VERY much with how he acts to Mat and Perrin in TGH.

 

 

I don't know that having important things happen to you makes you not a background character.  Look at Lan.  I think it's more the complete lack of focus on him in the first 2 books.  (Does he even have any PoV chapters?)

Also, with bringing Moraine to the big screen they are drawing in New Spring which she is the main character of (Or the deuteragonist at least) Having the advantage of knowing New Spring makes it very easy to flesh her out (And Lan).  Where as all of Mat's development and cool stuff is coming, so you can't draw on that as easily.

No harm in disagreeing, I absolutely feel other takes are valid opinions.  Just debating the point.  ?  As someone else said (And I'm bad with names, so my apologies on being vague)  us all discussing the changes and pro's con's, aspects of them is awesome.

 

 

Someone on a YT channel had a take on Lan that basically is that the show simply allows for us to see him as how Moiraine & Nynaeve see him better than the book.    We still get to see him the way Rand and others saw him, but the visual medium works better than the books to express how people he truly cared for saw him.  

Edited December 20, 2021 by ArrylT

[Yojimbo]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Here you say: (1) there was an implication the Perrin was interested in Egwene; (2) it makes Perrin look awful, because (3) he recently killed his wife; and thus (4) he shouldn't be ready to move on to someone else. Therefore (5) he looked pretty bad.

 

I don't understand how I am misinterpreting that.

Can't help you.   And, once again, I am not going to keep arguing the point.

[Gothic Flame]

Nynaeve jumping after Lan after dumping Rand...that does say something.

[KakitaOCU]

  

2 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

And yet because we did get to know him well, almost every moment he had in the last book hit hard.

  Hide contents

Him taking over the Shienarans after Easar's compromised mind becomes apparent; His "doomed charge" of 6k troops...that became a charge of 100k; his duel with the most powerful forsaken..that gives Rand a rousing cheer against Moridin; ...moments such as these comprises a good deal of the book.

If he wasn't written so well that you didn't know the character then you wouldn't care and such moments would be just wasted filler.

I personally didn't care that much, and what care I had was because of his development in those last books, not his actions in books 1-5.

All things considered I felt his sacrifice against Demandred came off as plot device, specially after Galad.  The rest?  A stupid man trying to get himself killed is a cute set up for a narrative device, but it's not compelling, not for me.  (This is my opinion, not trying to argue it as fact, just sharing a different view point.)

[dwn]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

And yet because we did get to know him well, almost every moment he had in the last book hit hard.

  Reveal hidden contents

Him taking over the Shienarans after Easar's compromised mind becomes apparent; His "doomed charge" of 6k troops...that became a charge of 100k; his duel with the most powerful forsaken..that gives Rand a rousing cheer against Moridin; ...moments such as these comprises a good deal of the book.

If he wasn't written so well that you didn't know the character then you wouldn't care and such moments would be just wasted filler.

There's still plenty of space for Lan to do all that, regardless of how they flesh out his personality in the meantime.

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

  

I personally didn't care that much, and what care I had was because of his development in those last books, not his actions in books 1-5.

All things considered I felt his sacrifice against Demandred came off as plot device, specially after Galad.  The rest?  A stupid man trying to get himself killed is a cute set up for a narrative device, but it's not compelling, not for me.  (This is my opinion, not trying to argue it as fact, just sharing a different view point.)

Apparently you've read a different book. Or did you forget about Mat's last stand or why it was a last stand? Or did you imagine that the bad guys were supposed to be stupid and not play things smart?

[Ralph]

23 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

  Look at Lan.  I think it's more the complete lack of focus on him in the first 2 books.  (Does he even have any PoV chapters?)

 

Not until AMOL I believe, and then minimal. (not counting New Spring) 

 

11 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

And yet because we did get to know him well, almost every moment he had in the last book hit hard.

  Hide contents

Him taking over the Shienarans after Easar's compromised mind becomes apparent; His "doomed charge" of 6k troops...that became a charge of 100k; his duel with the most powerful forsaken..that gives Rand a rousing cheer against Moridin; ...moments such as these comprises a good deal of the book.

If he wasn't written so well that you didn't know the character then you wouldn't care and such moments would be just wasted filler.

Of course. By the time we get to the last books. Did you care about his reaction to Moiraine's death and the transferred bond? 

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

Of course. By the time we get to the last books. Did you care about his reaction to Moiraine's death and the transferred bond? 

Do you remember any moments before that? Like when Moiraine was researching wuth another blue and deliberately pushing Lan, making him angry...because of her own annoyance towards Nynaeve, his feelings of which he openly denies. (Drak attack at that point)

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Do you remember any moments before that? Like when Moiraine was researching wuth another blue and deliberately pushing Lan, making him angry...because of her own annoyance towards Nynaeve, his feelings of which he openly denies. (Drak attack at that point)

Of course I do. I am asking if you felt an emotional attachment to him at that point and cared about him as a character. (Not just curious how the author would develop the storyline.) Would you have been upset if RJ had killed him off then? 

 

I know people who cried when Egwene died, who cried when Bela died. I am sure there are people who felt as strongly about other characters. I don't think people did towards Lan at the end of Book 5.

 

Maybe I'm wrong. I know I didn't 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Ralph

[Ralph]

22 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

 

  Hide contents

Him taking over the Shienarans after Easar's compromised mind becomes apparent; 

.

 

Not Easar. Wasn't it Agelmar? 

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

Of course I do. I am asking if you felt an emotional attachment to him at that point and cared about him as a character. (Not just curious how the author would develop the storyline.) Would you have been upset if RJ had killed him off then? 

Dude...he's a soldier even as he said Moiraine was... And I'm empathetic to a fellow soldier's passing.

Even though I felt there was a connection from that particular ter'angreal and stuff in the three-fold land. (I was skeptical of her passing)

[Gothic Flame]

5 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Not Easar. Wasn't it Agelmar? 

Yes.

I was wrong. Easar is his uncle.

[Ralph]

27 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

.Thus the team working for the Amazon overlords have to appeal to the less imaginative amongst us to maximize who gets it.  Ths is not to denigrate what you said.  I believe the same.  It is just that the writing team has a different assessment of the audience.   

I find this a little bit extreme. 

 

There are plenty of points where they have relied on subtlety. If it is true we were meant to pick up on an Eg/P connection in Ep1, the Aiel, Rand channelling, PF turning up everywhere. They don't mind that being subtle. 

 

The point is not to make it obvious to people. The point is to make people feel emotionally invested in it. 

 

The other things are not relationships, they are the mystery. 

[KakitaOCU]

41 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Apparently you've read a different book. Or did you forget about Mat's last stand or why it was a last stand? Or did you imagine that the bad guys were supposed to be stupid and not play things smart?

Mat's last stand?  Which was a big thing for Mat?  And we had Lan literally just repeat Rand's actions in book 2 as a way to kill the villain?

Also, did you just say I wanted the bad guys not to play things smart while bringing up how Lan took out Demandred?  Which worked because Demandred chose to let it be a sword fight out of hubris and stupidity?

[2RiversFan]

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

Points for the first person to name the character and movie.  (a GREAT adaptation of a book).

His name is Uncas... I'm catching up on this thread and haven't read beyond the page where you asked.  

I didn't need Google or IMDB for that bit.  I've watched that movie at least 5 times, including probably around October of this year.

[Mailman]

8 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

To do something new with the story. The books still exist. The story you care so deeply about isn't worse because someone chooses to tell it in a different way.

Everything has been changed dont call it the Wheel of Time if everything has been changed except the names.

[flinn]

 There is no doubt at all that Perrin was really into Egwene. Go rewatch the series.

 

 Perrin creepily staring at her constantly.

 Laila skips Egwenes ceremony.

 "I do love you" has to reassure her that even though she was his 2nd choice he "does love her".

 The looks of pain on her face several times during the episode.

 Perrin looking all sad and upset when Egwene slips into Rand's bedding.

 Machin Shin saying "you killed her, you wanted her dead because you love another woman"

 Perrin getting way overly defensive about Rand's "you know all about leaving someone" comment.

 Nynaeve saying what she said.

 

and those are just off the top of my head. If I go back and marathon I guarantee I can show many more subtle hints that Perrin was definitely into Egwene and the problems between Perrin and Laila were directly related to it.

[TheChief]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

There are plenty of points where they have relied on subtlety.

Yes, like showing Nyneve's gaze when Lan tells her the story about his family's death. It showed her emotional response to the similarities of their childhoods. They did a great job subtly showing how this moment deepened the connection and love between them, and why Lan might initially have been drawn to her (as she shared that story with him in episode 4). These kinds of things can be done in visual medium (face acting) but are harder in print.

 

I feel like this obvious connection was missed in the books. IMHO, it really explained to me more clearly why they are drawn to each other. I liked them as a couple in the books, but I didn't really understand how or why they were in love.

Edited December 21, 2021 by TheChief
blah

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

Also, did you just say I wanted the bad guys not to play things smart while bringing up how Lan took out Demandred?  Which worked because Demandred chose to let it be a sword fight out of hubris and stupidity?

I certainly agree on the hubris and stupidity. And that is Demandred...his whole history has always been about his ego.  Which was considerable even among the so-called "Chosen."

[expat]

I'm seeing a strong disconnect here about what constitutes a character's arc.  Some are arguing what they did while others are arguing about how their character's mental state (why they did those things) changed over the books.  Both Lan and Matt are examples of this.  One person remarks that Lan barely changed over the books while another says that he did great things so he had a strong arc.

 

Same statements with regard to Matt - little character arc over the first several books with the response of looks at all the important things he did/done to him.

 

If we can't agree on what constitutes the character arcs, we can't agree on how well the show represents them and how good were the decisions that drove the arc.  Currently the two sides are arguing past each other while thinking they are debating the same thing.  Not happening.

 

My opinion, things that the character did/had done to them are not important to their arc.  Why they did those things/why they put themselves in the position to have those things done to them constitute the arc.  I understand that others think that the character arcs include other things.  They might be right.

[expat]

On the question of the visual media and the changes required.  Shakespeare could get away with a "To be or not to be" soliloquy, but that isn't the WOT (either the book or the show).  Matt's defining character was revealed best during his many POVs where he debated being selfish or a hero.  Even Shakespeare only had one of these per play.  So the show had to generate this tension in another way so when he did something heroic, it was understood that there was this inherent inner challenge.  Was changing his parentage the best way to do it?  Maybe not, but it does provide a background allowing viewers to understand that his heroic deeds weren't natural, but a choice. 

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

Just noticed something FUN. Lord Agelmar’s costume incorporates raven feathers.

[orbops]

12 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

To do something new with the story. The books still exist. The story you care so deeply about isn't worse because someone chooses to tell it in a different way.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.   

So you think they could compress 14 books into maybe 4-6 seasons at 8 episodes per season and still stay 100% true to the novel???

[DaddyFinn]

6 hours ago, Ralph said:

Did you care about his reaction to Moiraine's death and the transferred bond? 

Was there even a reaction? I remember Lan just stating the fact that the bond was gone and transferred automatically to another AS and he wanted to send Nyn the certain message. I didn't feel anything for Lan. More towards Moiraine. The show seems to be preparing for that so much better.