tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

Pretty interesting to see the very mixed feelings here on DM about the episode ... wonder how it's playing in the wider world?

I'm watching with a couple fans & a couple people who had never heard of WoT. 

 

Um. None of my people liked this episode.

 

Because unless you are a superfan ... it's just not good TV. My wife has humored me so far, but gave up on this one. I think I've lost her on WoT.

 

Maybe on a rewatch I will think better of it. But ... these next two episodes better be awesome or I have serious concerns that we won't get a S3. Because, it seems to me, that the last two episodes were a lot of set up for what is to come. 

 

I'll rewatch and try to be more positive ... but on my initial watch I thought: 

-the CGI looked terrible (they're trying to blend an actual set with CGI stuff and it just looks cheesy)...Hall of the Tower, Waygate, Shadar Logoth healing.

 

-I want to love Loial like I do in the books, but in the show the scenes are rushed, he looks wonky, and he's basically not needed/necessary. Especially if you don't actually need him for the ways. 

 

-We haven't had enough time or development with our main characters to care about them (this is the main issue and the negative critique of a Rolling Stone article on the show).

 

-The playing up the "Who is the Dragon?" was a huge mistake that they're not doing well (all of my non book fans know without even looking it up) and as fans we're hard core rolling our eyes at "I'm not sure." "5 headed dragon." " "Boy or girl"

 

-Theyre cutting a bunch of stuff in order to add stuff that...the majority of the audience just doesn't care about (though I see it's very mixed on here). 

 

But ... In an effort to be positive: 

I did like the hint that we'll get Seanchan. 

 

I'm sticking with it and hope the next two episodes and next season rock. They got to be better than episode 4 (which I think is pretty generally agreed upon as the best episode) or I really think this ship is going down. ?

 

 

 

 

 

[TheDreadReader]

20 minutes ago, Jearom Gaidin said:

I definitely agree it has to be a Ter'Angreal to Tel'aran'rhiod with them going to Siuan childhood burned down shack in Tear. Loved the opening scene too with young Siuan on the river fishing....only RJ describes Tear as super flat ground and muddy in the Maule... but I think the show is going with a mountainous backdrop so I'm ok with the change there, it was aesthetically pleasing opposed to see her dragging lines in New Orleans?

 

Did you see what might be the Stone in the background when they were on the river?

 

[Jaysen Gore]

1 minute ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Yes.

 

Although, I briefly toyed with the idea that the forsaken were already free but having them still bound would work much better... so Ishy doing Ishy things is my bet.

 

Not that they're sticking to all the fine points but I'm clinging to the hope that the first seal is not yet broken, so we're still in the Ishy's the only one free phase.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

4 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Not that they're sticking to all the fine points but I'm clinging to the hope that the first seal is not yet broken, so we're still in the Ishy's the only one free phase.

 

Hm. I do think we'll probably be lead to think as the audience that Ishy is the DO and it's he who they actually fight at the Eye.

 

Does anybody think we'll get the Forsaken of the books at the Eye? 

Do you think we'll get the Green Man?

[Blackbyrd]

Thought it was a very good episode. The spectacle and the drama played into each other nicely. At least there was some sort of exposition before just deciding to go into the Ways but it was still pretty quick. Still there was a smoothness to this one that is reminiscent to ep 4 and they both stand out to me. Overall though it feels like there are 15-30 minutes of television that went missing that could have really set up a lot of stuff in a lot cleaner manner. The 8 episode limit is really straining a book that would have been hard to make in 10 episodes

 

 

Edit:

 

Sophie Okonedo also killed it as Siuan. Even if you are show skeptical it might be worth watching just her moments. Totally nails it

Edited December 10, 2021 by Blackbyrd

[Sabio]

This episode reinforces my frustration with the pacing.  Look at Moiraine. 

One moment she is in the chamber getting yelled at, then she is outside Rand and Mat inn, then she is in a bath, then she is with Egwene and Perrin, then she is back in the tower.

 

It reminds me of a killer movie where one moment the killer is in a barn, then the killer is in a closet, then suddenly the killer is behind a tree with zero attempt to show this person jumping from place to place.

[flinn]

Just now, Sabio said:

This episode reinforces my frustration with the pacing.  Look at Moiraine. 

One moment she is in the chamber getting yelled at, then she is outside Rand and Mat inn, then she is in a bath, then she is with Egwene and Perrin, then she is back in the tower.

 

It reminds me of a killer movie where one moment the killer is in a barn, then the killer is in a closet, then suddenly the killer is behind a tree with zero attempt to show this person jumping from place to place.

 Did you really want to watch her travel from place to place? I for one would not enjoy an episode with all that traveling.

[Skipp]

I really enjoyed this episode.  Loved to see the Moiraine/Suian romance get the attention it deserves.  Seeing all the Aes Sedai politics is just a treat. 

 

Interesting that they made Suian a dreamer and I certainly do mind her giving the warning about the Eye Of the World.  I always believed that Ishammael planted the idea of the Eye to lure Rand there to ulitmately break a seal anyways.  So I continue to thing this is Ishy planning a trap for everyone.

 

As much as I want to see more Matt in the next couple of episodes, it would be really cool if they had him interact with Fain.  The way the scene was cut I am almost certain it was because of Barney leaving the show.  I hope to be proven wrong.

 

While this was a heavy Moiraince centric episode I do believe we will get heavier focus on the EF5 for the last couple of episodes.

 

Just excited to see the Ways.

[Skipp]

And just as an aside, my Wife is really enjoying the show.  This was her favourite episode along with 4 and 5.  Of course my excitement for the show might be rubbing off on her.

[Sabio]

No but it never makes sense when the person is just suddenly at each spot when a scene ago they were in a bath now she is suddenly being led into Egwene's room.  Or suddenly she is just across from Rand's inn.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Sabio

[Vambram]

I liked this episode. But this episode would have been MUCH BETTER if there was more screen time for Rand, Mat, Perrin. Please don't misunderstand me because I do like  all the scenes with Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Siuan, Liandrin, Allanna, and Logain. I truly do. 

 

However, I don't like that there has not been enough character development for Mat, Perrin, and Rand. To me, it doesn't feel like non-readers of the series have been given enough of an opportunity to really care about 3 of the MOST important characters of the books. 

 

I do like the 6 episodes but I feel like that they could have been better. 

[WheelofJuke]

I'll be super honest. At this point, I'm chalking up this series/adaptation as a complete loss. 

 

Only reason I'll continue watching is covid downtime, winter, and my wife has a prime subscription. 

 

Sure glad I didn't shell out for this; I would've been even more disappointed, which is saying something. ?

 

Sorry to be a bummer, just really sad. 

[jh557]

59 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Basically have to accept that this season is from Moraines perspective at this point so don’t expect to focus much on the book protagonists until next season if ever.

 

I have came to the same conclusion and that we are just going to have to wait for the story to shift to the EF5 and that season 1 is really a season from Moiraine's viewpoint until the dragon is revealed at The Eye. With that being said, I wish that we were starting each episode with a flashback from chapters from NS which would help people to understand Moiraine and Siuan (non-readers still have no idea how they ended up in a relationship from their Novice and Accepted days or what the reference to Gitara's vision is since they have not seen it- and I always thought this would be an amazing scene), Moiraine and Lan (a scene from their bonding would have helped eliminate the confusion surrounding the warder bond and some issues with E5 for non-readers), and the Moiraine/Liandrin possible Elaida combo (Accepted days/preparing for the Test during the War- Alanna and Leane could have also been involved as well). I don't hate what the show is doing, but there are still a bunch of holes in the storyline that they are currently developing even when accepting that it is not a page by page adaption of The Eye of the World that could be plugged with scenes from NS. 

 

Or even better in my opinion would have been just starting with NS in the first couple of episodes. To me, there was no logical reason to jump to EF in episode 1 other than that is how the book started since they are not super focusing on the EF5 at this time. If season 1 was going to focus on Moiraine, the Aes Sedai, and their warders this much and skipping so much time in Andor with the EF5 than starting with NS would have made the storyline easier to flush out by actually showing the end of their time as Accepted and showing how Moiraine becomes who she is. Just a couple of episodes that could have ended with Siuan and Moiraine realizing the BA knew and that it was them against the entire word. Then you jump 20ish years to where we started this season. Just a thought that I have had while watching the adaption that I think would make this storyline easier to accept for book readers that this season's focus was not on the EF5 but on Moiraine.     

 

I also hated the many headed dragon comment and have hated it since it was first stated in the show. I get that it is the show writers trying to create misdirection or at least I hope that is all, but I hate that the focus has shifted to its more than one of them. I don't care about whether they leave it open ended for whether the Dragon is male or female. More power to them from this regard. There should be some confusion for watchers as to which EF5 it is but possibly all of them is just nonsense and poor writing in my opinion (Again disagreement with me is fine). I am praying that The Eye episode will end this. Also unless Ishy has been much more successful in corrupting things on this continent in this turning there should still be a definite Karaethon Cycle that Moiraine and Siuan would be using as guidance and regarded as the best possible prophecy right? 

 

A few of other things that bothered me. Suian is now possibly a Dreamer even if poorly trained? Why did we need to change this to Suian's dream rather than keep it with the EF kids/Dream Ishy and Loial's cool Aiel story about blinging the eye. They literally moved the inn to TV, so this could have just happened in the inn in TV rather than the weak Siuan storyline. Also the comment of the Eye being the prison of the DO really bothered me. Just how poorly have the Aes Sedai been at keeping any knowledge that they do not even known where the DO is trapped unless they are completely eliminating Shayol Ghul in the show? Women can no longer sense how strong another woman is in the power or their potential power? Moiraine knew that Egwene could channel but sensed nothing from Nynaeve? Or was she just not able to sense how strong she was which her wording left as a possibility?  Liandrin made certain to point out Nynaeve is stronger than Siuan but did not say Moiraine's name as well which could mean nothing. Is there a chance that Moiraine is weaker than Siuan now? Alanna talked about Moiraine being powerful enough to stand up to Siuan so I have to assume that they are pretty equal but could Siuan be more on a Cadsuane level in the show?     

 

I just want to say that I am throwing out these thoughts not in "hating" on the show. I have liked the show, but I have not loved it so far. It is still early and I will continue to watch.       

[Arthellion]

Honestly the fact we’re getting so much Moraine/Egwene/Nynaeve concerns me.

 

The lack of character development on Rand/Mat/Perrin needs to change in Season 2.

 

Rafe has said Egwene is his favorite character. This is troublesome to me because I don’t think you he understands the nuance of the character.

 

At the end of the day Egwene is a powerful and strong woman…but ultimately a very flawed individual who believes her way is the best way.

 

I don’t really know where I’m going with this other than to say that anecdotally I’ve found people who loved Egwene really didn’t read WoT the way I did and don’t remember major points the way I do.

 

Anyways, we will see how these next two episodes go and I’m giving it until season two, but they have got to focus on Rand/Mat/Perrin.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Arthellion

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, Sarlic said:

Hi all.  Long time reader, long time lurker.

 

This episode had me scratching my head a bit, and while I like the series so far and will continue, my biggest frustration with it has been the extraordinary amount of "new" storyline added at the expense of necessary background/exposition.  I've read the books more times than I can count, but my wife never has, and she's watching the show to humor me and trying to get into it.  She has tons of - in my view - legitimate questions about things happening in the show that don't have an appropriate amount of background.  Everything tying directly back to the books is very, very rushed, and yet we can spend an entire episode on Stepin.  (And case an point, my wife had no idea the bond between Aes Sedai and Warders was Power-created.  It wasn't sufficiently explained in the show.)

 

I knew going in that 8 episodes a season was going to result in cuts -- but I think they're really whiffing on some major stuff at the expense of unnecessary additions.  The introduction of the Eye of the World, seemly out of nowhere, was just sloppy.  In the books, it was fast, but at least had some foundation in the dreams of Ishamael (which haven't been given their necessary focus, IMHO, and should have just been left out entirely at this point.)  Why is Loial there at all?  No introduction or background on Ogier, and certainly not even a whiff of explanation about his/Ogier connection to the Ways.  Moiraine concealing from Egwene/Perrin that Rand/Mat were in the city, and vice versa....?  Why?  I'm starting to get really frustrated.  Holding out hope tho because there are some really great moments.

 

And we'll see about Mat being left behind, maybe he jumps through at the last minute.

 

Anyway, I'm sticking with it -- but for whatever reason, this episode really irked me - as an avid reader of the books.  I imagine non-book readers would have been far less bothered.

Welcome to the resistance…

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, Agitel said:

 

I've been a big apologist of the show, but I really think this is unfair. Book purists whined about LotR. Book purists whined about GOT. But not all things are equal. As an apologist for this show I can still admit they are taking quite a broad license with the adaptation, much more than either LotR or GOT, imho. I can certainly imagine something closer that's still far from a page-for-page transcription.

No longer an adaptation, but rather ‘based on’…

[dorotea]

So just to sum up what seems to be general consensus of the N&N-ers, to whom I proudly subscribe the series, so far after the 2/3-rds episode  has three major problems aside from the myriad of minor irritating things that can be tolerated or/and accepted.

 

1. No levity - meaning there is barely a really funny moment that lightens the mood and makes dramatic moment stand out in contrast. The writers collectively have a lot of cheese to dispense, but no sense of humor, like somebody went scorched earth policy on all the funny moments. In other words  imagine GoT without Tyrion banter.

 

2. Much of the main male characters have been truncated and moved to the sidelines, to let the ladies shine. When a male character is in the spotlight it is usually to cry a river or display their extraordinary sense and sensitivity. Now imagine Geralt of Rivia spending his time crying over fallen comrades when he is not showing his softer, more feminine side. Mmm... right.

 

3. Plot has been revamped and streamlined, but somehow a lot of  plot-irrelevant  content has been inserted just to serve this or that writer's idea of what a cool new culturally enriching moment they can write in,  instead of what would explain the plot holes.

[Guire]

20 minutes ago, dorotea said:

So just to sum up what seems to be general consensus of the N&N-ers, to whom I proudly subscribe the series, so far after the 2/3-rds episode  has three major problems aside from the myriad of minor irritating things that can be tolerated or/and accepted.

 

1. No levity - meaning there is barely a really funny moment that lightens the mood and makes dramatic moment stand out in contrast. The writers collectively have a lot of cheese to dispense, but no sense of humor, like somebody went scorched earth policy on all the funny moments. In other words  imagine GoT without Tyrion banter.

 

2. Much of the main male characters have been truncated and moved to the sidelines, to let the ladies shine. When a male character is in the spotlight it is usually to cry a river or display their extraordinary sense and sensitivity. Now imagine Geralt of Rivia spending his time crying over fallen comrades when he is not showing his softer, more feminine side. Mmm... right.

 

3. Plot has been revamped and streamlined, but somehow a lot of  plot-irrelevant  content has been inserted just to serve this or that writer's idea of what a cool new culturally enriching moment they can write in,  instead of what would explain the plot holes.

You are not wrong.  Also in tribute to my heritage I make the and a y.  So it is the order of NyN. We will not ride alone to Tarwin's Gap.

[Pandemonium]

36 minutes ago, jh557 said:

 

I have came to the same conclusion and that we are just going to have to wait for the story to shift to the EF5 and that season 1 is really a season from Moiraine's viewpoint until the dragon is revealed at The Eye. With that being said, I wish that we were starting each episode with a flashback from chapters from NS which would help people to understand Moiraine and Siuan (non-readers still have no idea how they ended up in a relationship from their Novice and Accepted days or what the reference to Gitara's vision is since they have not seen it- and I always thought this would be an amazing scene), Moiraine and Lan (a scene from their bonding would have helped eliminate the confusion surrounding the warder bond and some issues with E5 for non-readers), and the Moiraine/Liandrin possible Elaida combo (Accepted days/preparing for the Test during the War- Alanna and Leane could have also been involved as well). I don't hate what the show is doing, but there are still a bunch of holes in the storyline that they are currently developing even when accepting that it is not a page by page adaption of The Eye of the World that could be plugged with scenes from NS. 

 

Or even better in my opinion would have been just starting with NS in the first couple of episodes. To me, there was no logical reason to jump to EF in episode 1 other than that is how the book started since they are not super focusing on the EF5 at this time. If season 1 was going to focus on Moiraine, the Aes Sedai, and their warders this much and skipping so much time in Andor with the EF5 than starting with NS would have made the storyline easier to flush out by actually showing the end of their time as Accepted and showing how Moiraine becomes who she is. Just a couple of episodes that could have ended with Siuan and Moiraine realizing the BA knew and that it was them against the entire word. Then you jump 20ish years to where we started this season. Just a thought that I have had while watching the adaption that I think would make this storyline easier to accept for book readers that this season's focus was not on the EF5 but on Moiraine.     

 

I also hated the many headed dragon comment and have hated it since it was first stated in the show. I get that it is the show writers trying to create misdirection or at least I hope that is all, but I hate that the focus has shifted to its more than one of them. I don't care about whether they leave it open ended for whether the Dragon is male or female. More power to them from this regard. There should be some confusion for watchers as to which EF5 it is but possibly all of them is just nonsense and poor writing in my opinion (Again disagreement with me is fine). I am praying that The Eye episode will end this. Also unless Ishy has been much more successful in corrupting things on this continent in this turning there should still be a definite Karaethon Cycle that Moiraine and Siuan would be using as guidance and regarded as the best possible prophecy right? 

 

A few of other things that bothered me. Suian is now possibly a Dreamer even if poorly trained? Why did we need to change this to Suian's dream rather than keep it with the EF kids/Dream Ishy and Loial's cool Aiel story about blinging the eye. They literally moved the inn to TV, so this could have just happened in the inn in TV rather than the weak Siuan storyline. Also the comment of the Eye being the prison of the DO really bothered me. Just how poorly have the Aes Sedai been at keeping any knowledge that they do not even known where the DO is trapped unless they are completely eliminating Shayol Ghul in the show? Women can no longer sense how strong another woman is in the power or their potential power? Moiraine knew that Egwene could channel but sensed nothing from Nynaeve? Or was she just not able to sense how strong she was which her wording left as a possibility?  Liandrin made certain to point out Nynaeve is stronger than Siuan but did not say Moiraine's name as well which could mean nothing. Is there a chance that Moiraine is weaker than Siuan now? Alanna talked about Moiraine being powerful enough to stand up to Siuan so I have to assume that they are pretty equal but could Siuan be more on a Cadsuane level in the show?     

 

I just want to say that I am throwing out these thoughts not in "hating" on the show. I have liked the show, but I have not loved it so far. It is still early and I will continue to watch.       

My impression is that Siuan is not a dreamer.  I could be wrong.  In her office she had the same ter'angreal that Moiraine has.  I think they are both just using ter'angreL.

[Guire]

7 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

My impression is that Siuan is not a dreamer.  I could be wrong.  In her office she had the same ter'angreal that Moiraine has.  I think they are both just using ter'angreL.

So should we refer to this as the Kennedy sidepiece Ter'angreal.  I am sure they had as much use for a love bubble in Age of Legends as any other time.

[Jearom Gaidin]

1 hour ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

Hm. I do think we'll probably be lead to think as the audience that Ishy is the DO and it's he who they actually fight at the Eye.

 

Does anybody think we'll get the Forsaken of the books at the Eye? 

Do you think we'll get the Green Man?

Those are some great questions!! The books led us to believe Ishamael was the DO many times and confused Rand and others for three straight books so looks like show is going in a similar vein there. In the books Moraine was only one who saw through Ishamael as not dark one so twist she thinks its the DO in the show! Green man would be fun but difficult to pull off so probably ok if that's cut out.

 

I hope we see Balthamel and Aginor and some good special effects in the eye, would be a great into into the forsaken and their extreme channeling so hope that hooks some new fans of the show can do it well...

[flinn]

 Going by the forsaken figurines Stepin was doing the ritual to, Balthamel and Aginor were not included.

[Jearom Gaidin]

15 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

My impression is that Siuan is not a dreamer.  I could be wrong.  In her office she had the same ter'angreal that Moiraine has.  I think they are both just using ter'angreL.

Definitely using the Ter'angreal as conduit for Tel'aran'rhiod. Great way for writers to introduce TAR and have Moraine and Siuan be able to explain if need be to the girls later on

[jh557]

11 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

My impression is that Siuan is not a dreamer.  I could be wrong.  In her office she had the same ter'angreal that Moiraine has.  I think they are both just using ter'angreL.

 

I agree with that part that it is some kind of Ter'angrel. My Dreamer thought came from her saying she had the same dream over and over again for weeks about the DO and the Eye of the World while she and Moiraine were wherever the Ter-angrel led to. They used this to introduce the need to go to the Eye, but I feel that the original introduction in the books of Ishy telling the EF kids that the Eye would not serve them while in their dreams and then Loial recalling an Aiel saying Sightblinder intended to bling the eye as a stronger way to introduce this than through Siuan's dreams or at least Siaun's dreams alone. 

[EnvoyPV]

4 hours ago, Sarlic said:

 

This episode had me scratching my head a bit [a lot] my biggest frustration with it has been the extraordinary amount of "new" storyline added at the expense of necessary background/exposition.  I've read the books more times than I can count, but my wife never has, and she's watching the show to humor me...

Anyway, I'm sticking with it -- but for whatever reason, this episode really irked me - as an avid reader of the books.  I imagine non-book readers would have been far less bothered.

I'm so disgusted/disappointed. So many unnecessary departures from the books for no good reason. Trollocs and fades must have channelers with them to use the ways, now? Horses couldn't survive? Good grief.

Acting is great, but this is barely an homage to the source material. So sad.