tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

3 hours ago, Agitel said:

I think before it aired he had only read the script, and his comments were based on that. Unless he repeated himself since.

 

This video is from 3 days ago. 

3 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Brandon has been very clear about this. He wasn't sure about the direction the show was taking, spent a few days doing hard thinking, and eventually decided that his job was to help Rafe make the best version of his story (not RJ's story).

 

You clearly did not watch the video I posted [because that's not at all what he says]. Sanderson talks about the scale of Tv/Movie adaptation theory. On one side you have 1-1 book to screen adaptation philosophy like the first Harry Potter or first season of GoT. On the other side you have "inspired by" like The Shining. He says that this is basically a 50/50 right in the middle of that.

And he compares it to LoTR. And he says it helped him to think of it as "A New Turning of the Wheel". 

 

Interestingly, the guy who hasn't read the books complains that Matt didn't have a personality until Ep3 & that Perrin still doesn't have a personality by Ep4. 

 

This is, for sure, the weakest part of the TV show so far for however one is thinking about it IMO... None of the male characters (that are still alive- they did the most development with Steppin?? ) have any development/depth. 

 

And we don't really have any antagonists with depth (except Liandrin but we don't know she's a DF yet). 

 

And ...as per being relevant to this thread... I posted it because I thought it was interesting that BS said episode 6 was his favorite. 

 

IMO it was the worst episode. Sooo I dunno. Guess I just don't trust Sanderson's taste - though I do like his writing. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Wolfbrother31
Relevance to this thread

[Cheetaiean]

36 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

What’s wrong with her acting? I thought she did a good job even though I’ve never seen her in anything else before. 

Her public Amyrlin Seat persona is really hard to take seriously - overbearing, loud, pretentious. There is a way to act powerful with more Aes Sedai-like dignity and authority.
In general I think the casting choice was more due to existing friendships and connections than a general desire to find someone perfect for Siuan Sanche. 

Ah well - I console myself with casting choices I like: Tam al'Thor, Rand, Egwene (Madeleine Madden), Moiraine (of course); I'm even growing more accepting of Perrin. 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

10 minutes ago, Cheetaiean said:

Ah well - I console myself with casting choices I like: Tam al'Thor, Rand, Egwene (Madeleine Madden), Moiraine (of course); I'm even growing more accepting of Perrin. 

 

I think the best change they've made so far is increasing Logain & Liandrin's roles ... And both those actors are doing really well! I like those casting choices too.

[Cheetaiean]

11 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

I think the best change they've made so far is increasing Logain & Liandrin's roles ... And both those actors are doing really well! I like those casting choices too.

Indeed - Logain was a very pleasant surprise as he is the actor from the Spanish series Money Heist, and in both (but especially in wheel of time) he manages to radiate that spiritual energy of a guru or ascetic that befits a false Dragon and powerful male channeller that shook half the world and got the king of Ghealdan himself to follow him. 

[JenniferL]

Yeah Logain pre-gentling had a really great “cult leader” vibe. You get why people followed him. 

[flinn]

58 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

This video is from 3 days ago. 

 

You clearly did not watch the video I posted [because that's not at all what he says]. Sanderson talks about the scale of Tv/Movie adaptation theory. On one side you have 1-1 book to screen adaptation philosophy like the first Harry Potter or first season of GoT. On the other side you have "inspired by" like The Shining. He says that this is basically a 50/50 right in the middle of that.

And he compares it to LoTR. And he says it helped him to think of it as "A New Turning of the Wheel". 

 

Interestingly, the guy who hasn't read the books complains that Matt didn't have a personality until Ep3 & that Perrin still doesn't have a personality by Ep4. 

 

This is, for sure, the weakest part of the TV show so far for however one is thinking about it IMO... None of the male characters (that are still alive- they did the most development with Steppin?? ) have any development/depth. 

 

And we don't really have any antagonists with depth (except Liandrin but we don't know she's a DF yet). 

 

And ...as per being relevant to this thread... I posted it because I thought it was interesting that BS said episode 6 was his favorite. 

 

IMO it was the worst episode. Sooo I dunno. Guess I just don't trust Sanderson's taste - though I do like his writing. 

 I have seen where he said 6, but I have also seen where he said it was "6 or 7". I am not hoping that he meant 7 because 6 was OK.

[Guest Cranglevoid]

9 hours ago, Sabio said:

It's not unheard of though.  Most pillow friendships end when they become full Aes Sedai, but it's not unheard of for it to continue.  Even in the book there is mention (might of been with Eladia, not sure) of wanting to start a pillow friendship again.  I could easily see people wanting a little fun after not seeing someone for two years, before getting down to the serious business.  After all not like waiting a few hours to discuss the Dragon really made a difference.

Absolutely, and if it had been an actual part of the story, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it isn't, and I really don't like them basically saying that Jordan wrote the story wrong and "here's how it was supposed to be".

[Guest Cranglevoid]

11 hours ago, The Purple Ajah said:

Again, it seems that a lot of fans that complain about 'pointless' additions or changes do not realize that a lot of them quite obviously contain very important aspects to the story, be that emotional factors, or simply communicating aspects of the plot to us.

 

The scene between Moiraine and Siuan conveys several aspects of the story:

• That the antagonism between Moiraine and Siuan is all for show, and that they truly have an extremely close and intimate relationship.
• That for all her stoicism, Moiraine does have her own interests, people who she loves, and a life she does care about on some level -- even beyond her mission to find the Dragon Reborn.
• That Siuan is an ally for Moiraine and her party, but that there is a need to tread very carefully with the politics of the Hall.
• A segue into setting up Siuan as the only person who knows the truth about Moiraine's mission other than herself and Lan, and discussions about the prophecies and how much they can be trusted, and what the group needs to do for the end of the season.

A picture paints a thousand words. Screenwriting is an art, one that is distinct from a novel, and a scene like this is a perfect example of how a different medium has different assets for telling the same story we all love and care about. What's more, with the rushed pacing at certain points being a large complaint, it is great to have a slower and more emotion and character driven scene for the story.

All of this could have been accomplished without a sex scene. I guess what irks me the most is that it feels cheap, just like the scene in the bath house in this episode. It has a "Let's draw people in with sex and nudity" feel to it.

 

The Wheel of Time had very little emphasis on sex, but the series feels like it wants to be Game of Thrones Lite, by adding extra scenes just to make people talk about it. It's the same as all the group sex hints in the earlier episodes, which were also completely pointless and just added to stir the pot and be "controversial".

 

Edit: typo

Edited December 12, 2021 by Cranglevoid

[TheSmurf]

2 hours ago, RextheDog said:

....why is the waygate closing? and if so, why doesnt she just reopen it from the inside and discuss with Mat his reasons for hesitating?

 

 

 

 

Moraine: So Mat, why don't you want to come? Is the possibility of death? The hard traveling? The Ways?

 

Mat: Nah I'm good with all that... It's just.. I can't go into detail but lets just say 'I've been recast' and leave it at that m' kay. 

 

Moraine: Recast? That's shocking! After Steppin, Logan, Nyneave, Lan and myself, you were my almost kind of favourite member!

[jh557]

6 hours ago, Katherine said:

 

But.... there is nothing in the religion of the Wheel that ANYWHERE EVER suggests that a soul can be split like that. It just makes no sense and follows no logical thought pattern whatsoever. 

 

Honestly, I think the fact that we keep going back to "the characters don't know what they are talking about" is the only reason we can come up with besides "this is bad writing'. 

 

Hear me: I want this to be good SO MUCH. I love these characters. But I really think it might be bad writing. ? 

I 100% agree about the multi headed dragon, and I feel that it is just poor writing as there is already a semi mystery as to who the dragon is so it never need to be brought up in the first place. But luckily we are getting to the reveal of the real dragon part so hopefully it disappears from the dialogue.   

 

And I think that there has been plenty of other places where the writing has been poor and even horrendous in places. There are certainly complaints to be had. I think the way the whole season has been written with Moiraine being more of the center focus that they should have just started the first couple of episodes in New Spring before jumping ~20 years to EF in like E3. I think it would have been easier to build up Moiraine/Siuan/Lan that way than what they are doing now but that would have probably led to other issues especially with only 8 episodes. I feel like Siuan's Hall scenes were more like what I would expect from Elaida. I don't like the change of women not being able to sense the ability to channel and know that it potentially has large implications. I thought having Siuan introduce The Eye was weak writing and took another scene from the EF kids and Loial. I feel that there simply has not been enough of the EF boys in particular. I don't know how I feel about the Ways and how the gate was opened yet because I don't know what the explanation is going to be for that. So I agree that there are definitely some moments that I feel have been bad writing and that is really just off the top of my head about this episode alone.

 

I think the last couple of episodes have been harder to swallow because not only did they veer from the books but because there are holes and scenes that some, myself included, felt were overly dramatic, poorly written, and even wasted precocious time (Others disagree and that is fine). There were also scenes that I felt were good or fine. I can only hope the next 2 episodes are book storyline driven since we seem to be back there by getting to the Ways. I can also hope that whoever wrote and directed E4, which I thought was good, get more episodes in the future. If certain people have hated every episode (and I can understand why because there has been major changes) then I can see them having no hope for the future. But if there have been episodes, scenes, or characters that have been good or even acceptable, I hope that people can continue to grind through with the expectation that the writers and directors do have to sort some things out and that there were always going to be mistakes and growing pains with undertaking a project this big around the amazing complex world that RJ built and so many people are so passionate about.

 

And I known that the hope to do better trope wears people thin but its really all we have right now to just maybe even reach the point of seeing some of the more iconic scenes on screen. And I'm sorry if some people are already past that point but I understand that as well. 

 

  

 

 

 

 

[Ralph]

The reason they have to introduce other non-Dragons dying at the battle BTW Dragon and "DO" is so they can't take anyone else. 

 

They then have to justify killing four out of five. It is pretty clear M&S would do that anyway, but suggesting the many heads makes it more palatable (to themselves and/or the viewers). 

 

I don't believe either will happen. Especially bc I expect it to be Baalzamon not the DO anyway. 

 

But canonically M assumed only one important individual, and was baffled to find the other two boys were significant to the Prophecies, which she had never picked up on. It is not that different prophecywise (not talking abt soul-splitting, but not so sure why that is a big deal). 

[RhienneAgain]

6 hours ago, Therese Sedai said:

What’s wrong with her acting? I thought she did a good job even though I’ve never seen her in anything else before. 

I think her acting was good, and she seemed pretty close to book-Siuan in the scene through the Ter'angreal with Moiraine.  But she was like three totally different characters in the scenes she was in.  When she was in the Hall she was fine as a generic Amyrlin but didn't have any sense of Siuan Sanche at all.  And her behaviour in the audience with Egwene and Nynaeve was quite bizarre - again totally different.  

[RextheDog]

5 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

but the series feels like it wants to be Game of Thrones Lite, by adding extra scenes just to make people talk about it. 

 

Edit: typo

nah im not seeing that....ive had a bit of a whinge about a few things about the last two episodes, but im still really happy with how they are keeping it out of the GOT gutter....

 

i understand some would prefer a platonic relationship between S and M, but in the end, Jordan made them pillow friends, i like that they never 'grew out' of their homosexuality.... to me thats a plus point.

 

Jordans world is amazing and intense, but its not perfect, some things are ripe for a change....

 

im hoping theres a lot less of the pining and pathetic idiocy in the relationship between Faile and Perrin....that really damaged the books for me...

 

i understand passion, but that was like a classic 'he leaves the toilet seat up, she leaves the toilet seat down hur hur hur' base level story telling

 

 

 

as for the bath scene...that was miles from the gutter...that was actually quite poignant...they were novices yeah? i just read that as they have to expose themselves to be humbled... it really wasnt a 'phoaarrrrr tits!!!' moment for me.

 

 

Alanas decletage on the other hand....that was worth the rewatch....

[The Purple Ajah]

6 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

All of this could have been accomplished without a sex scene. I guess what irks me the most is that it feels cheap, just like the scene in the bath house in this episode. It has a "Let's draw people in with sex and nudity" feel to it.

 

The Wheel of Time had very little emphasis on sex, but the series feels like it wants to be Game of Thrones Lite, by adding extra scenes just to make people talk about it. It's the same as all the group sex hints in the earlier episodes, which were also completely pointless and just added to stir the pot and be "controversial".

 

Edit: typo

For an adaptation of a book series with pink ribbons and the comical scene of everyone reacting to Elayne and Rand in the Royal Palace of Caemlyn, the sex in Wheel of Time is no less tasteful than what Jordan wrote. The baths were simply people having baths undressed, a cultural phenomenon described by RJ numerous times. RJ's style was basically "fade to black" but not completely nonsexual elsewhere, and if anything the show's approach to sexuality so far is extremely close to the style of the original text.

[ilovezam]

10 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Sanderson talks about the scale of Tv/Movie adaptation theory. On one side you have 1-1 book to screen adaptation philosophy like the first Harry Potter or first season of GoT. On the other side you have "inspired by" like The Shining. He says that this is basically a 50/50 right in the middle of that.

And he compares it to LoTR.

 

Is that right? I watched the video and my understanding was that he'd put LOTR right in the middle of the spectrum, and WoT between LOTR and The Shining. He even straight up said "75%" at one point.

 

I'm still mostly enjoying the show at this point, but we've gotten 3 out of 6 episodes where it doesn't follow the books for the most part. Change doesn't automatically mean bad since Ep 4 was amazing IMO, but I really struggled with 5, and even more so with 6.

 

I cannot imagine it being considered to be on the same tier as LOTR with regards to faithfulness to source material

[Ralph]

It is far more different from the book than I hoped or expected. 

 

However, I am enjoying it as a show. 

 

And, rather than stop considering it an adaptation, I am still expecting that the necessity for all the new scenes etc is based on 1) needing to build up the world much more obviously and visually and 2) as others have said, the fact that eotw is so different from the rest of the series. 

 

I hope and expect that series 2 will be closer to the books (though I would be surprised if portal stones make it in exactly the same way) and that from book 4 at least it is more or less faithful in terms of the main storylines. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Ralph

[Gothic Flame]

24 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

 

I cannot imagine it being considered to be on the same tier as LOTR with regards to faithfulness to source material

It's no longer comparable to GoT, let alone LOTR.

It is however comparable to Live-action Cowboy Bebop, with fans on both sides going pro/con. 

[NetNightmare]

On 12/10/2021 at 7:56 PM, Texas Grognard said:

The show is being written for a 21st Century audience that values identity and representation.  If it is possible to work it in earlier, they will. Is it important to the plot? Not really.  Is it important to large segements of the current audience? You'd better believe it.

may be a bit late in answering it ...anyway, the show may be written for 21s Century audience, and I concede that it may be important to a vast number of people, I do believe it, do not worry.

 

Though you misunderstood me, I was merely stating that in my opinion fan base should stop trying to compare book to show and attribute hidden meanings\reason to SR choice, like the Moraine&Siuan romance... he (or someone) decided  to insert it for the very reason you are stating.

 

That being said, "I" do not care for sex\Identity\gender in fantasy show, even if it was an hetero one... since thats not what am looking for when consuming such kind of material... do you have to agree with me ? absolutely not, though believe me or not, last time I checked I was still entitled to a divergent opinion.....

 

 

[FanofKnotai]

21 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

He was trying to leave before the battle at Cairhein before he got caught up in it, if I recall correctly. It's later in the books that he starts to accept some responsibility, even begrudgingly. I'm not hating on Mat, his character is great, and I think his reluctance makes him one of the most relatable. The way I read the scene he doesn't trust Moiraine very much at all -- she might believe this is the only way to save the world but he's not convinced.

 

It's fine for us to disagree, but it's a shame you are saying that my opinion means I've skipped the books. the lovely thing about books is people can get different things from them.

That’s exactly what I saying. In the battle at Cairhein he WAS leaving…until he saw COMPLETE STRANGERS walking into a pincer move by the Shaido and decided to step in. If he hadn’t he could’ve been on his way to dicing in an inn with a fine ankled lass on his knee. But he didn’t leave he jumped in. That Mat would NEVER have stayed behind. 

[Pandemonium]

6 hours ago, RextheDog said:

nah im not seeing that....ive had a bit of a whinge about a few things about the last two episodes, but im still really happy with how they are keeping it out of the GOT gutter....

 

i understand some would prefer a platonic relationship between S and M, but in the end, Jordan made them pillow friends, i like that they never 'grew out' of their homosexuality.... to me thats a plus point.

 

Jordans world is amazing and intense, but its not perfect, some things are ripe for a change....

 

im hoping theres a lot less of the pining and pathetic idiocy in the relationship between Faile and Perrin....that really damaged the books for me...

 

i understand passion, but that was like a classic 'he leaves the toilet seat up, she leaves the toilet seat down hur hur hur' base level story telling

 

 

 

as for the bath scene...that was miles from the gutter...that was actually quite poignant...they were novices yeah? i just read that as they have to expose themselves to be humbled... it really wasnt a 'phoaarrrrr tits!!!' moment for me.

 

 

Alanas decletage on the other hand....that was worth the rewatch....

Wait for the scenes where Shadar Haran tells Mesaana and Graendal to get naked and then takes his belt off

[FanofKnotai]

“I’m coming, Mat thought as he ran after the thief-taker. I’ll get you out or die! I promise it!”

 

This Mat would never have stayed behind. 

[NetNightmare]

Ok I did a rewatch with wife and son both of them didn't read the books (yet bought son EotW as Christmas  gift), they did enjoy the show, wife it's practically addicted, both of them though asked me

 

- Whats the purpose of Loial (and also what the heck he is)

- Who is the DR

 

So I would say the misdirection in my case did work none of them pointed toward Rand, on the bad side Loial doesn't have a "reason" to be there, though son love it heh.

 

Personally I still think that for me this is the best episode so far, even though I had time to think about some things that really have no sense to me.

 

- Tar Valon Guards, as someone pointed out, at least for now there is only women as guards and all of them are unarmed ... this is frankly odd especially if you pair it with the Amyrlin statement that Logain is armless in the Tower... well for sure he is harmless to an AS but what about to a unarmed guard ?? and why anyway guards should be unarmed and dressed like they are about to take a bath is beyond me..

 

- Ter angreal of Moraine and Siuan, is it Traveling ? is it TAR ? I don't know ... nonetheless ..isn't strange Moraine didn't bring it with her so she could keep communicating with Siuan (and do other I guess) ?? someone mentioned that maybe they cannot be moved cause part of the wall... well in that case... since nobody today knows how to make more ... are those "casually" the only rooms equipped ?? the alternative is actually worse ...

[DigificWriter]

^The X-Ray extras are pretty explicit in stating that Moiraine and Siuan's ter'angreal physically transported them somewhere other than the White Tower.

[FanofKnotai]

21 hours ago, sw0mp_d0nk3y said:

First complaint.  Not enough Rand, Mat, and Perrin.  I think Perrin had 1 line in episode 6.  If they knew at the beginning that they were going to focus most of the show on Moraine's experience and perspective, then they shouldn't have bothered aging up the book's main characters.  We spend so little time with them anyway, they might as well be naive little kids.  Could have skipped the silly Perrin kills his wife bit, and the mopey, not fun Mat bit.  Two of the best book characters wasted in order to be darker and more adult.  

 

Second complaint.  Its not that hard to make a 10 foot Ogier.  See Lord of the Rings.  Forced perspective, body doubles, and only occasionally needing actual vfx.  I did enjoy someone calling Loial the Burger King though, fair description.

 

Third complaint.  Slow down and have a few conversations in these amazing sets.  Good dialogue. Character development.  This is where Game of Thrones really sucked people in before the budgets were enormous.

 

I am enjoying the show for the most part though, just wish it could have been better.  I'm sure I'll keep watching right through to the end, or the cancellation.  For those thinking it is a doomed show though, 3rd season has already been greenlit, and a lot of people are watching it.  Ratings don't matter as much as number of viewers, and I'll bet a Tar Valon Mark that all of the people complaining and saying they won't watch anymore, will be right there with the rest of us watching every episode on release day.

 

 

Lol you are so right. I’ve never actually said (out loud) that I’m not going to watch anymore. But I’ve been so upset at points where I’ve even turned off the tv only to have to fast forward back to where I was when I turn it back on ?. It’s just so frustrating to watch such drastic (and mostly unnecessary) changes to an already amazing story. The show seems the work of the DARK ONE when he twisted, ever so slightly, reality in AMOL ?. I still can’t help but to watch even though the book reader in me is huddling in a corner reciting “The dark one and all the forsaken are bound in shayol ghul. Bound by the creator….” ??

[TheChief]

17 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

 

As book readers, we know what made the awesome WoT moments awesome. So when we see pieces being pulled out from under them, we say it like it is. This is not premature speculation. It's a realistic assessment of the setups which are an essential part of the payoff. 

Hmmm… I kind of doubt that. Writing successfully for tv is a skill that I believe very few wot readers have, which is what is needed to adapt the story to tv. Imho, the changes are being made for payoff in a tv format down the road. Heaps of lore doesn’t make for compelling tv, I’m afraid. 
 

honestly I don’t understand the devotion to “lore”. I mean, it’s not a religious text.