tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[The Purple Ajah]

8 minutes ago, Zarathustra said:

I think I'm missing that one.  Si and Mo only interact briefly in the main sequence and I only ever had the impression that they were two close friends that were very driven and had a singular goal--driven to the point that thoughts of relationships never even entered their minds.  There's certainly nothing (that I recall anyway) in the main sequence that would make anyone think that they were sexually interested in one another (or women for that matter).  If anything, statements about hypothetical lives as wives or mothers support arguments about how they preferred men.

 

I think Jordan wrote New Spring and included that as a nod to his fans that wanted Si-Mo while providing a prologue for established fans and a bit of bait for potential new fans.  I preferred the short about the 100 companions, but, that's the magic of art.

 

 

And yet they are able to make the show with the knowledge of all books in mind. New Spring is no less important just because it takes place in history. And there is still a basis for it -- just as there would be a basis for Siuan and Moiraine being married to a man if they took a different path. The Companion explicitly says outright that they had 'relations' and an established relationship. You may not be able to recall something, or perhaps you have not looked thoroughly at the ancillary information, but that does not mean it is not there.

[Guest Cranglevoid]

1 hour ago, The Purple Ajah said:

I can't believe Robert Jordan disrespected Robert Jordan's material when he made Siuan kiss Moiraine in New Spring and wrote notes that were published in the Companion about them being pillow-friends. Clearly Robert Jordan has no respect for Robert Jordan, and wanted to make the Wheel of Time into his own personal playground.

Jesus <nope> Christ, I'm talking about a drawn-out love scene that doesn't happen in the books. The fact that they shared a bed when they were training to be Aes Sedai is hardly the same as them having a secret relationship at present time, where they convene in a secret hut with portals leading to it.

 

The point is that the Amyrlin Seat and Moiraine isn't having soirees – it's a completely pointless addition.

Edited December 11, 2021 by CaddySedai
just because you use stars * or try to spell out the letter F does not mean you didn't use the word.

[DaddyFinn]

10 minutes ago, Zarathustra said:

very driven and had a singular goal--driven to the point that thoughts of relationships never even entered their minds. 

That seems to be the case still, at least mostly. Moiraine has been out of WT for two years and when she meets Siuan they briefly enjoy each other's company and talk business and off she goes again. That's not too bad.

[The Purple Ajah]

25 minutes ago, Cranglevoid said:

Jesus Christ, I'm talking about a drawn-out love scene that doesn't happen in the books. The fact that they shared a bed when they were training to be Aes Sedai is hardly the same as them having a secret relationship at present time, where they convene in a secret hut with portals leading to it.

 

The point is that the Amyrlin Seat and Moiraine isn't having soirees – it's a completely pointless addition.

Again, it seems that a lot of fans that complain about 'pointless' additions or changes do not realize that a lot of them quite obviously contain very important aspects to the story, be that emotional factors, or simply communicating aspects of the plot to us.

 

The scene between Moiraine and Siuan conveys several aspects of the story:

• That the antagonism between Moiraine and Siuan is all for show, and that they truly have an extremely close and intimate relationship.
• That for all her stoicism, Moiraine does have her own interests, people who she loves, and a life she does care about on some level -- even beyond her mission to find the Dragon Reborn.
• That Siuan is an ally for Moiraine and her party, but that there is a need to tread very carefully with the politics of the Hall.
• A segue into setting up Siuan as the only person who knows the truth about Moiraine's mission other than herself and Lan, and discussions about the prophecies and how much they can be trusted, and what the group needs to do for the end of the season.

A picture paints a thousand words. Screenwriting is an art, one that is distinct from a novel, and a scene like this is a perfect example of how a different medium has different assets for telling the same story we all love and care about. What's more, with the rushed pacing at certain points being a large complaint, it is great to have a slower and more emotion and character driven scene for the story.

Edited December 11, 2021 by CaddySedai
removed the word that was removed from the quoted post

[CaddySedai]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

The only reason I'm still following the forums is because I love the books so much that I want the show to improve.  So I'm channeling my inner Nynaeve and scouting for signs...

One of the many reasons I appreciate ya DojoToad 

[FanofKnotai]

On 12/9/2021 at 8:19 PM, MasterAblar said:

So Mat remains in Tar Valon... I can only imagine the reason has something to do with Padan Fain and the dagger. Something tells me he's not healed entirely.

 

They mystery of the Dragon goes on. At this point you might as well point at Rand because of how much they're trying to hide it. Many Dragons suuuuuuuuuuure.

 

Siuan all but says Egwene and Nyneave are ta'veren. If you're gonna hint that strongly why not just say it especially since she has the Talent? Or is their strength alone making her think they are key to what is to come.

 

A ter'angeal linking Moiraine and Siuan's rooms. Cool.

 

When Moiraine was speaking her oath to never return to the White Tower until Siuan called her back, I couldn't help thinking "And she never will".

 

Really wish they had Moiraine pull out a leaf when opening the Waygate, even if it's with the One Power. Seems like it would have been an easy thing to do but oh well.

 

WOULD YOU PLEASE LET LAN LEAD THE WAY INTO THE WAYS! IT'S LITERALLY HIS JOB DESCRIPTION!

I know I'm nitpicking but come on. 

 

Quote

Weakest thing is the justification for going to the Eye. Incredibly abrupt and out of nowhere. It was quite sudden in the books too I suppose but still.

In the books it was hardly sudden. It was mention several times in the journey leading to Camelyn. The boys just didn’t know what it meant. Then when Loial mentioned what he heard from other Ogier about what Jain Farstider said they remembered all the times it was said. And also Perrin remembered the Tinker story. The entire book was leading to the Eye. 

 

Overall an episode wholy focusing on Moiraine, Siuan, and the Aes Sedai. Was really good overall. Now lets get back our favorites please.

 

[Zarathustra]

51 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

And yet they are able to make the show with the knowledge of all books in mind. New Spring is no less important just because it takes place in history. And there is still a basis for it -- just as there would be a basis for Siuan and Moiraine being married to a man if they took a different path. The Companion explicitly says outright that they had 'relations' and an established relationship. You may not be able to recall something, or perhaps you have not looked thoroughly at the ancillary information, but that does not mean it is not there.

I simply don't care and did not when I read the books--it's not in the main sequence and that scene served no purpose other than tapping into a potential praise well and further alienating fans of the books (perhaps you should review the books, because they present a completely different narrative of the two after the death of Gitarra).  It's not good simply because you wanted something that was not in the books.  Of course, the casting choice and the sea folk tats are equally strange.

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Zarathustra

[FanofKnotai]

On 12/9/2021 at 8:26 PM, ForsakenPotato said:

Like I know it was another episode of stuff mainly not from the books and mainly Moiraine focused and changed lots of lore (many headed dragon??? Aes Sedai can't tell a channelers potential? Magic portal pictures??) so people are gonna be super pissed and that's their prerogative. But damn if I don't care right now because I loved every single minute!

 

Siuan was imposing and amazing. Moiraine continues to be a boss (and called Loial "builder"!). Rand drew his sword and was immediately owned by Lan. The ways look nice and spooooky. Egwene's face when she finds out Nyneave is a stronger channeler. And Matt staying behind?? He would totally do that, he spends half the books trying to run away from things only to end up wherever he needs to be. AND THE FISH SAYINGS! Heck yes.

Mat from the books would never had stayed behind. He was always “saying” he wanted to run but never did. Think about how he jumped in to save the Cairhein army from the Shaido when they were about to be pinned. He didn’t have to do that he was almost away. Think about him jumping in save Aludra from Tammuz. Think about how he jumped in to save The three girls from Gaebril’s assassin. Now you think he would save a bunch of strangers but not try to save the world (including his loved sisters) from the Dark One?! You must have skipped through the books if you think that. 

[FanofKnotai]

On 12/9/2021 at 8:31 PM, phoenixtrinity said:

This episode felt the most book-like so far, and I loved everything. My husband, who is not a book-reader, also says its one of his favorite episodes. He was excited about the dagger, the ter'angreal (portal), and wants to know what's going on with Perrin.

 

Sadly, at this point I can only imagine the folks who hate the show (not just dislike it) would accept nothing less than a page-for-page transcription from book to screen.

See that’s where the people like you are wrong. I don’t think any of us wanted a “page-for-page transcription”. I just think most of us would rather the story not be obliterated like this. 

[The Purple Ajah]

11 minutes ago, Zarathustra said:

I simply don't care and did not when I read the books--it's not in the main sequence and that scene served no purpose other than tapping into a potential praise well and further alienating fans of the books (perhaps you should review the books, because they present a completely different narrative of the two after the death of Gitarra).  It's not good simply because you wanted something that was not in the books.  Of course, the casting choice and the sea folk tats are equally strange.

 

I have read the books, and can enjoy the differences, as the many people have. It isn't good because "I wanted something different" -- it's good on its own merits at presenting a compelling dynamic, and that's what makes it enjoyable at the end of the day.

 

What's strange about the casting choices? Do you mean the excellent choice to cast two of the most acclaimed actresses out there in the show? And there is nothing Sea Folk about their tattoos, they are fisher folk tattoos (as is very common in cultures across the world) to represent the waterways of the Fingers of the Dragon.

[Sabio]

On 12/10/2021 at 6:28 AM, RextheDog said:

not really sure what the issue is here?....can you explain further?

 

its like you want her to be in one room for the episode?....surely shes allowed to move around?

In a movie if say the police are talking in the station, they might say lets go interview so and so, then it cuts to them showing up and the person's home.  You don't need to see the entire drive but you have an explanation why they are outside of this house.  

 

In the episode it's one moment Moiraine is in the tower then suddenly she is sitting outside an inn and knows Mat is ill.  There is zero explanation why she is just sipping tea outside the inn or anything.  Then poof she is in a bath.  Nothing is ever explained, just feels clunky to me.  You don't need to see her walking everywhere, but there could be something like lets go see if my eyes and ears are right or somehting to explain why she is suddenly there.   As I said before it's more like in a horror movie where one moment the killer attacks in a bedroom, then next moment he is attacking someone in a barn.  

 

 

[Elgee]

On 12/10/2021 at 2:20 AM, CaddySedai said:

@Elgee Is it strange, Mother…that you and the throne are both the Amrylin Seat?

 

Luckily I have that Split Personality thing going for me. Sometimes I numb my own arse.

[CaddySedai]

Hey hey all, just a friendly pulse check.

 

Nothing that rises to the level of needing warnings or such - but I can hear the tone shifting in a few of these posts calling out book-purists, show apologists, people like you, etc.

 

Of all the episodes so far this one has some of the most interesting posts to read about so I want it to keep going swimmingly.

 

Carry on then ?

[Sabio]

1 hour ago, Cranglevoid said:

Jesus <nope> Christ, I'm talking about a drawn-out love scene that doesn't happen in the books. The fact that they shared a bed when they were training to be Aes Sedai is hardly the same as them having a secret relationship at present time, where they convene in a secret hut with portals leading to it.

 

The point is that the Amyrlin Seat and Moiraine isn't having soirees – it's a completely pointless addition.

It's not unheard of though.  Most pillow friendships end when they become full Aes Sedai, but it's not unheard of for it to continue.  Even in the book there is mention (might of been with Eladia, not sure) of wanting to start a pillow friendship again.  I could easily see people wanting a little fun after not seeing someone for two years, before getting down to the serious business.  After all not like waiting a few hours to discuss the Dragon really made a difference.

[ForsakenPotato]

11 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

Mat from the books would never had stayed behind. He was always “saying” he wanted to run but never did. Think about how he jumped in to save the Cairhein army from the Shaido when they were about to be pinned. He didn’t have to do that he was almost away. Think about him jumping in save Aludra from Tammuz. Think about how he jumped in to save The three girls from Gaebril’s assassin. Now you think he would save a bunch of strangers but not try to save the world (including his loved sisters) from the Dark One?! You must have skipped through the books if you think that. 

He was trying to leave before the battle at Cairhein before he got caught up in it, if I recall correctly. It's later in the books that he starts to accept some responsibility, even begrudgingly. I'm not hating on Mat, his character is great, and I think his reluctance makes him one of the most relatable. The way I read the scene he doesn't trust Moiraine very much at all -- she might believe this is the only way to save the world but he's not convinced.

 

It's fine for us to disagree, but it's a shame you are saying that my opinion means I've skipped the books. the lovely thing about books is people can get different things from them.

[Zarathustra]

8 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

I have read the books, and can enjoy the differences, as the many people have. It isn't good because "I wanted something different" -- it's good on its own merits at presenting a compelling dynamic, and that's what makes it enjoyable at the end of the day.

 

What's strange about the casting choices? Do you mean the excellent choice to cast two of the most acclaimed actresses out there in the show? And there is nothing Sea Folk about their tattoos, they are fisher folk tattoos (as is very common in cultures across the world) to represent the waterways of the Fingers of the Dragon.

That's just it:  it's not good because it's meritless.  

 

Regarding the tats:  They totally blended Tear, if she's even from Tear in Rafe's train wreck, with the SF.  

 

The casting choice is absurd because, again, they ignored the source material.  

[Skipp]

14 minutes ago, Zarathustra said:

That's just it:  it's not good because it's meritless.  

 

Regarding the tats:  They totally blended Tear, if she's even from Tear in Rafe's train wreck, with the SF.  

 

The casting choice is absurd because, again, they ignored the source material.  

 

Her father specifically says that she has to go the the Whitetower because it isn't safe for her in Tear.  What more do you want.

 

Sophie Okonedo is a fantastic actress and displayed Suian's gravitas superbly. And being able to see 3 different fascets of her character on display, The Amyrlin, her vulnerable side with Moiraine and her teacher mode with Egwene/Nynaeve. I don't understand how you can be up be upset with her in the role.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Skipp
spelling

[The Purple Ajah]

4 minutes ago, Zarathustra said:

That's just it:  it's not good because it's meritless.  

 

Regarding the tats:  They totally blended Tear, if she's even from Tear in Rafe's train wreck, with the SF.  

 

The casting choice is absurd because, again, they ignored the source material.  

To you, perhaps! I have spoken about how the scene represents their intimacy, and that I find it well scripted, well active, and very emotionally resonant. It is profound and extremely compelling, and speaks to the high quality of storytelling, where their own additions can be just as interesting as the material from the original text. 

 

They have not blended Tear and the Sea Folk. A constant theme I am finding is people getting mad about stuff that is only speculation, even when that speculation is proven true. In the concept art of Tairen fashion, there is a woman with no tattoos, and a separate Sea Folk fashion can be seen with some passersby in Tar Valon. The idea comes from the real world tendency for fishermen and men in the navy to be much more likely to get tattoos, even in a time when tattoos were taboo in the rest of society.

 

What casting choice are you talking about? Do you mean Sophie Okonedo being a dark-skinned woman, even though 1) Tairens are described as having skin tones that ranges to "as dark" as the Sea Folk in the original text, and 2) they are making an artistic choice that most nations have no distinct look due to the world-government that existed before the Breaking of the World, and you have had 2 years to accept this since the castings of the Emond's Field Five were revealed?

[DaddyFinn]

10 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Even in the book there is mention (might of been with Eladia, not sure) of wanting to start a pillow friendship again

I think it was Elaida. As you said, it's not too far fetched for some pillow friends to actually keep the relationship as they grow older. People don't simply just grow out of being Lesbian/bi. At least that's how I understand it, someone correct me if you know better.

[Zarathustra]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

 

Her father specifically says that she has to go the the Whitetower because it isn't safe for her in Tear.  What more do you want.

 

Sophie Okinado is a fantastic actress and displayed Suian's gravitas superbly. And being able to see 3 different fascets of her character on display, The Amyrlin, her vulnerable side with Moiraine and her teacher mode with Egwene/Nynaeve. I don't understand how you can be up be upset with her in the role.

I've written this elsewhere, but the the casting choices ignore Jordan's purposefully crafted world in which races and cultures are geographically separated.  They could have handled this differently simply by introducing the Seanchan without ignoring the source material.  That would have been a more acceptable shuffling of text--the S pov of the return or arrival in Falme 

[Zarathustra]

11 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

To you, perhaps! I have spoken about how the scene represents their intimacy, and that I find it well scripted, well active, and very emotionally resonant. It is profound and extremely compelling, and speaks to the high quality of storytelling, where their own additions can be just as interesting as the material from the original text. 

 

They have not blended Tear and the Sea Folk. A constant theme I am finding is people getting mad about stuff that is only speculation, even when that speculation is proven true. In the concept art of Tairen fashion, there is a woman with no tattoos, and a separate Sea Folk fashion can be seen with some passersby in Tar Valon. The idea comes from the real world tendency for fishermen and men in the navy to be much more likely to get tattoos, even in a time when tattoos were taboo in the rest of society.

 

What casting choice are you talking about? Do you mean Sophie Okonedo being a dark-skinned woman, even though 1) Tairens are described as having skin tones that ranges to "as dark" as the Sea Folk in the original text, and 2) they are making an artistic choice that most nations have no distinct look due to the world-government that existed before the Breaking of the World, and you have had 2 years to accept this since the castings of the Emond's Field Five were revealed?

1)  Back at you.  It's irrelevant to me and a useless change.  However, you like it.  I still see it as ignoring the source material.  It's,  introducing Traveling, even worse because it completely negates the reason why the used the Way gate.

 

2)  Your view is equally speculative.  However, evidence presently supports an argument about the SF being absorbed into another culture.

 

3)  Dark as in med-tanned.  Siuan had "fair skin" and blue eyes.

 

4)  Jordan made an artistic choice too and he geographically separated races and cultures.  There's a reason why Semirhage was playing in Seanchan instead of W-Randland.

 

I didn't know about the show until we saw its banner on Amazon.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Zarathustra

[Skipp]

Just now, Zarathustra said:

I've written this elsewhere, but the the casting choices ignore Jordan's purposefully crafted world in which races and cultures are geographically separated.  They could have handled this differently simply by introducing the Seanchan without ignoring the source material.  That would have been a more acceptable shuffling of text--the S pov of the return or arrival in Falme 

Jordan's world has culture's geographically divided, rarely races.  The 2 exceptions being the Seafolk and the Aiel.  Everywhere else Jordan uses terms like "They were darker than Tariens" or "They were lighter than Domani". 

 

But in cases where he went more specific in skin colour we have examples like Old Cenn Buie is described as being as dark as an old Root.  Go dig up a root, they are fairly dark and that is directly in the Two Rivers.  The first Queen of Andor is described as being very dark, akin to the seafolk.  Elaida says Rand can't be from the Two Rivers because his untanned skin is to pale. 

 

This all shows that while the countries of the Westlands have general physical attributes, Jordan mostly cared about hair/eye colours and then relegated the rest of the differences to dress.  But when it came to skin colour, except for the two exceptions I mentioned above,  everywhere had a fairly large range of skin colours.

 

On Siuan specifically while she is described as pale as snow the general peasant populace is described as fairly dark almost to the point of the Seafolk.  But by casting Sophie in the roll it hasn't changed anything with her character in the slightest.  Same is casting a taller actor as Moiraine or casting a slightly shorter Rand.

 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

22 minutes ago, ForsakenPotato said:

The way I read the scene he doesn't trust Moiraine very much at all -- she might believe this is the only way to save the world but he's not convinced.

I prefer to see it as Mat does not trust himself - following from his comment immediately before being healed that "the world does not need a dragon like me" (roughly that).

 

[ArrylT]

59 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

One of the many reasons I appreciate ya DojoToad 

He and a few others I consider Jenn Aiel, and that is meant as a compliment and not mockery.  The events Rand experiences at Rhuidean are some of my favorite WOT moments and without the Jenn Aiel there is no Rhuidean and no He Who Comes With The Dawn. 

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, Zarathustra said:

However, evidence presently supports an argument about the SF being absorbed into another culture.

In episode 5, @09:15    there's a person that has a chain between their ear and nose.