tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Vartija]

I think my expectations were a bit skewed because I had read that this was one of Sanderson's favourite episodes. So I went in expecting something really different and epic compared to previous episodes but it felt more like stady continuation of the previous episodes. 

 

I wasn't a big fan of the cold open or the first Hall of the Tower scene. Both felt needlessly long drawn for me. These two scenes took about 19 minutes of the runtime. There's something about the directing that seems to emphasize slow visual effects (like the "drone shot" of the Hall, long silent moments etc.) that to me just waste precious time. It has a feeling of "look at this set we made up" that feels a bit artificial and time consuming. I much prefer crisp, fast dialogue even at the expense of exceptional visuals. That was another miss with me, I felt like the bickering in front of the Amyrlin felt a bit juvenile, especially Liandrin's lines. The way they made Nynaeve such a point of contention felt a bit weird and overly dramatic. 

 

My favourite part of the episode was probably Moiraine's & Siuan's private chat and also Siuan with Egwene & Nynaeve. I was really impressed with Siuan's actress. The chemistry between Moiraine & Siuan felt natural. However, I would have skipped the "on your knees" and also "blowing smoke up our ass" lines. The latter especially is a continuation of the writer's habit of adding modern sayings into the show ("prick" being another one from previous episodes). It still feels needlessly crude and out of place for me. There are ways to be snarky and combative with "nicer" words.      

 

The Oath Rod scene was similarily a bit long drawn and melodramatic for my liking, not to mention a bit confusing with the pet names for Siuan etc. 

 

Like many others I'm a bit frustrated how little screen time the EF5 and especially the boys get currently.

 

Disappointed how little role Loial had regarding the Waygate. We weren't really explained the dangerous nature of the Ways either. I suppose this will come in the next episode, but I find it troubling Loial didn't object using the Ways even when he must know it's dangerous. Assuming they haven't skipped Machin Shin then it's kind of irrational to enter the ways without warning everyone first. In the book Loial was quite adamant about not using the Ways and had to be talked into it by Moiraine. I also hope they don't ignore the origins of the Ways, how they were made by already-going-mad male channellers as a gift for the Ogier for giving them shelter in the steddings. It's a beautiful story. 

[WheelofJuke]

8 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

It is frustrating.  More and more so with each episode.   I am getting exhausted with the whole idea of having to do so many mental gymnastics to come up with reasons for why they make seemingly unnecessary changes.  I am a realist and understood going in that there would have to be changes, but the sheer number of them for seemingly no real reason is just heartbreaking.  

 

Like others I am trying to get through the season.  I waited 25 years for someone to make this and I am going to go to the bitter end with it.  But with each episode I have less and less hope that they will ever really tell the story that I fell in love with all those many years ago.   Sure, they are hitting specific milestones of the original story, but the multitude of changes both large and small has, for me at least, taken away  much of its heart, its charm.

 

 I am happy for those who can make the mental adjustments to enjoy the show, though.   At least some of us have gotten what they wanted.

Well said, this sums up my feelings exactly. 

[IRony]

I wanted to love this series so much. I loved the books for more than half my life. I was cautiously optimistic. After six episodes, and especially after episode 6 I have to finally say that I went in with low expectations and came away disappointed. I went in fully expecting that this is a different turning of the Wheel. It is not, this is a different story altogether. 

 

They are obliterating the canon beyond recognition and redemption. My 13 years old daughter gave up after three episodes and asked me to buy the books instead (the first half of the series I have in Hungarian, a language she can understand but not read). My husband ducked out after four episodes. I will keep on watching, as someone put it because I hope against all hopes for redemption.

 

There are too many plots that I don't get why it needs to be there while not giving enough screen time to the actual main characters, while creating plot holes the size of Dragonmount:

- not able to sense the ability to channel (some vague explanation with WAFO that it can be only sensed while OP being embraced, yet M can sense it in Egwene and not in Nyn? How do they go and find novices for the WT? How do the Seanchan find the girls that the leash?

- DR can be girl or boy? WTF it is only the male half of the source that is tainted to make men go mad, so a female DR would not be a danger the break the world!

- The Waygate opening with the OP

- M swearing a personal oath to SS and nobody hearing or questioning it?

 

Also, I didn't understand the panic at the end of the episode. Can't the gate can be reopened to go and get Mat? (I understand the IRL departure, but as they were reshooting tons of scenes from S1 while filming S2 already, this would have been important enough to address).

 

Other things that seem small, but always bug me in any film/series: Egwene was stripped of all clothing and jewellery by the White Cloaks. They flee in what they have on (not much) and than she turns up in TV with most of her original clothing and ALL of her jewellery from episode 1.

 

While I might be banned for this, as moderators seem to only accept certain opinions, the show is loosing traction. I followed the topic ages ago in twitter. When the first episodes were released, my timeline had 80% WOT related posts. Now I actually have to go and look for them, and the main twitter account does not have enough traction to show up on my timeline either. 

 

I am just very sad.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, henfen said:

The book is fiction and the critiques are legit.  It's not personal.  There is some good and some bad.  We have different opinions, that hopefully we can respect.  I like reading people's perspectives that are different than mine.  It would be boring as hell if we all agreed all the time.

There are absolutely legitimate criticisms of the show. I share many of them. And I enjoy a good faith discussion about them. It's why I'm here. 

 

1 hour ago, henfen said:

I wonder why some people feel so defensive of negative criticism

It's a certain brand of negative criticism that I find objectionable. This brand tends to spout opinion as fact and attribute political motives and personalize their arguments. And I believe they are rooting for failure. 

[WheelofJuke]

If everyone's saying something, perhaps there's some truth to it? 

 

A lot of the real complaints are the same because they're objectively and technically pretty poorly done:

 

Lighting, editing, some of the set constructions, some of the cgi.

 

A lot of the good stuff such as: outstanding acting in places (e.g., Siuan, Logain, Moiraine, Teppin) is ruined by ham-fisted story-telling/editing. 

 

Pacing is a problem that is almost universally mentioned. 

 

It's NOT just nit-picking missing or changed details from the book. It's the gestalt that doesn't pass the smell test, despite some really really giving it every benefit of the doubt.

 

I'm glad a large sub-segment of the fandom is enjoying it, and I hope they continue to! ?

 

But I sure hope the (also perhaps large) sub-segment of the fandom that ISN'T enjoying it (for legitimate reasons, see above) DOESN'T gets drowned out. It's not negativity so much as calling it like we're seeing it. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by WheelofJuke
spullin' & Gremmur

[DojoToad]

33 minutes ago, IRony said:

 

Other things that seem small, but always bug me in any film/series: Egwene was stripped of all clothing and jewellery by the White Cloaks. They flee in what they have on (not much) and than she turns up in TV with most of her original clothing and ALL of her jewellery from episode 1.

 

I am just very sad.

I stopped watching after episode 4 but have been active here.  Surprised no one else has pointed out Egwene getting magically re-outfitted.

 

I'm sad too.

[WheelofJuke]

Something the dress talk reminded me of: I liked the subtle camera shot of Moiraine in the Hall....it seemed like it purposefully scoped out her dress and the sequins (?) on it...super great book-like moment, of which I wished there were more of. 

 

So much talk of dresses, gotta give one a moment to shine! ?

[Skipp]

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I stopped watching after episode 4 but have been active here.  Surprised no one else has pointed out Egwene getting magically re-outfitted.

 

I'm sad too.

I don't have the episode in front me but doesn't Perrin pick up a large bundle of clothing as they are escaping? 

[Gothic Flame]

23 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

I would appreciate a "Rant and Rave without Repercussion" like Westeros.org had, or at least a positive-leaning space to discuss something, since 90% of the comments I am seeing here almost seem to be repeated off a list

Yeah...you have a lot of people saying the same things. Book-fans are seeing their beloved books ripped apart, altered, filled in with useless time-wasting irrelevancies and many want to know why. 

[The Purple Ajah]

Clearly people must be watching better productions! Because the editing, set design, lighting, speaks to extreme high quality in many ways, and while constructive criticism is always welcome, many comments have been downright fallacious by calling it D-movie level, or display commenters' own lack of understanding of how television and visual media works in general, especially during a pandemic. Not to mention that a lot of evidence about how it is apparently disliked often falls into the realm of anecdotal evidence, because of course the generally good reviews and outstanding success it has had in viewing numbers would likely not support their argument.

 

I don't enjoy the pacing either, but for instance, many seem not to parse production problems (a lockdown, a main cast member leaving, and Amazon only ordering 8 episodes even though the production team have consistently said that they also want more screen time). And as said before with the "low quality" complaints, many seem to either be genuinely searching for complaints or are apparently great connoisseurs of acting abilities, if they are to call the acting of some of the most acclaimed actors in the industry "high school drama" level. It is rather rare to see complaints that do not end up devolving to insults to Rafe, with apparently few users realizing that e.g. there are different writers like Justine Juel Gillmer writing this episode.

 

Once more, I do see a pervasive number of people who call themselves "book purists," yet their knowledge of the books is surprisingly lacking. I have not read every comment here, but it entertains me to read people claiming that e.g. not everyone is reincarnated in the books (they are), or that differences in recognizing female channelers in the books somehow means that damane cannot be found (even though it is canonical in the books that they simply test everyone with the a'dam, for instance).

[fra85uk]

8 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I stopped watching after episode 4 but have been active here.  Surprised no one else has pointed out Egwene getting magically re-outfitted.

 

I'm sad too.

 

There are videogames with more logical continuity

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

If everyone's saying something, perhaps there's some truth to it? 

 

A lot of the real complaints are the same because they're objectively and technically pretty poorly done:

 

Lighting, editing, some of the set constructions, some of the cgi.

 

A lot of the good stuff such as: outstanding acting in places (e.g., Siuan, Logain, Moiraine, Teppin) is ruined by ham-fisted story-telling/editing. 

 

Pacing is a problem that is almost universally mentioned. 

 

It's NOT just nit-picking missing or changed details from the book. It's the gestalt that doesn't pass the smell test, despite some really really giving it every benefit of the doubt.

 

I'm glad a large sub-segment of the fandom is enjoying it, and I hope they continue to! ?

 

But I sure hope the (also perhaps large) sub-segment of the fandom that ISN'T enjoying it (for legitimate reasons, see above) gets drowned out. It's not negativity so much as calling it like we're seeing it. 

I agree with almost all of these criticisms. I will argue with "objectively and technically pretty poorly done." But yes: 

• There have been some lighting issues, some inconsistent CGI, bad edits, and uneven set design. I liked Wayne Yip better than the other two directors, for example. But compared to other shows, it's in the upper echelon of quality.
• I'm not sure what you mean by "ham fisted storytelling" - but I will agree that there have been some questionable things. Loial is just part of the group now for ... reasons as an example. The very convenient way everyone just is in Tar Valon because they need to be.
• Which leads into pacing. Which has also been uneven - to put it charitably. But I think most people who have read the books would agree with this: the best stuff is not in EotW. And while we'd all love to have the time to leisurely build out the world like EotW did, If you're going to get to the good stuff, you have to get moving.

I will get into these weeds all day. I love talking about this stuff. In good faith. With people who are interested in this stuff. Not with people who just want to jump in with personal attacks on Rafe, inserting political culture war takes, and pronounce the series 'ruined'. 

 

[The Purple Ajah]

3 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Yeah...you have a lot of people saying the same things. Book-fans are seeing their beloved books ripped apart, altered, filled in with useless time-wasting irrelevancies and many want to know why. 

Strange that Wheel of Time fans, where a fundamental aspect of the world and the universe is that stories change over time and through different storytellers, and where there is a concept of time repeating itself for the same Pattern with different variations, are apparently so rigid about the story, or cannot notice how just about every alteration serves a thematic, worldbuilding, or foreshadowing purpose related to the book series.

[Gothic Flame]

Just now, The Purple Ajah said:

Clearly people must be watching better productions! Because the editing, set design, lighting, speaks to extreme high quality in many ways, and while constructive criticism is always welcome, many comments have been downright fallacious by calling it D-movie level, or display commenters' own lack of understanding of how television and visual media works in general, especially during a pandemic. Not to mention that a lot of evidence about how it is apparently disliked often falls into the realm of anecdotal evidence, because of course the generally good reviews and outstanding success it has had in viewing numbers would likely not support their argument.

 

I don't enjoy the pacing either, but for instance, many seem not to parse production problems (a lockdown, a main cast member leaving, and Amazon only ordering 8 episodes even though the production team have consistently said that they also want more screen time). And as said before with the "low quality" complaints, many seem to either be genuinely searching for complaints or are apparently great connoisseurs of acting abilities, if they are to call the acting of some of the most acclaimed actors in the industry "high school drama" level. It is rather rare to see complaints that do not end up devolving to insults to Rafe, with apparently few users realizing that e.g. there are different writers like Justine Juel Gillmer writing this episode.

 

Once more, I do see a pervasive number of people who call themselves "book purists," yet their knowledge of the books is surprisingly lacking. I have not read every comment here, but it entertains me to read people claiming that e.g. not everyone is reincarnated in the books (they are), or that differences in recognizing female channelers in the books somehow means that damane cannot be found (even though it is canonical in the books that they simply test everyone with the a'dam, for instance).

Are these the same book purists that endorsed cutting out whole scenes? Heck, you have a few that endorse cutting out the Seachan and Sea Folk.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

6 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

Something the dress talk reminded me of: I liked the subtle camera shot of Moiraine in the Hall....it seemed like it purposefully scoped out her dress and the sequins (?) on it...super great book-like moment, of which I wished there were more of. 

 

So much talk of dresses, gotta give one a moment to shine! ?

Although those huge tooled leather shoulder pieces are like a very unpleasant flashback to the 1980's (apologies to those of you to young to remember the 80's shoulder pad - one of fashions more egregious errors which will now haunt you also if you look up some images).

 

[Skipp]

I personally love the sets and the acting as both have been phenomenal.

The pacing can be odd at times but to my nonbook reader friends they have 0 zero with the pacing. 

The editing is certainly odd at times as it often seems like they need to trim scenes 2 seconds too early to make it under a certain time. 

I have never noticed the lighting in a bad way and often notice it in good ways.

 

I am not a professional in this industry so when people are complaining about it I just don't understand what they are seeing that I am not.

[Gothic Flame]

Just now, The Purple Ajah said:

Strange that Wheel of Time fans, where a fundamental aspect of the world and the universe is that stories change over time and through different storytellers, and where there is a concept of time repeating itself for the same Pattern with different variations, are apparently so rigid about the story, or cannot notice how just about every alteration serves a thematic, worldbuilding, or foreshadowing purpose related to the book series.

Are you talking about the actual books, or is this the Rafe show and his justification for tearing them apart?

[The Purple Ajah]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

Are you talking about the actual books, or is this the Rafe show and his justification for tearing them apart?

This is an omnipresent theme in the books and the explanation of the cosmology of the world. Hell, it's always been an approach followed by Team Jordan, where Harriet encouraged Brandon to be experimental and give the last few books his own flair, because that was the most important thing, which led to scenes like Aviendha at Rhuidean. So yes, funny that fans are far more rigid than both the rights holders of the books and the theme and understanding about storytelling, time, and the nature of the universe of the Wheel of Time that are present throughout the book series.

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, The Purple Ajah said:

This is an omnipresent theme in the books and the explanation of the cosmology of the world. Hell, it's always been an approach followed by Team Jordan, where Harriet encouraged Brandon to be experimental and give the last few books his own flair, because that was the most important thing, which led to scenes like Aviendha at Rhuidean. So yes, funny that fans are far more rigid than both the rights holders of the books and the theme and understanding about storytelling, time, and the nature of the universe of the Wheel of Time that are present throughout the book series.

Had it NOT been billed as an "adaptation of the books" made by a "fan of the books" you'd have a point. 

But selling "A Different Turn of the Wheel" might have been seen as problematic if Amazon wants to lure in an already built in fanbase.

 

[WheelofJuke]

11 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I personally love the sets and the acting as both have been phenomenal.

The pacing can be odd at times but to my nonbook reader friends they have 0 zero with the pacing. 

The editing is certainly odd at times as it often seems like they need to trim scenes 2 seconds too early to make it under a certain time. 

I have never noticed the lighting in a bad way and often notice it in good ways.

 

I am not a professional in this industry so when people are complaining about it I just don't understand what they are seeing that I am not.

The two seconds too soon editing thing is noticeable to me as well. 

 

I'm by no means a lighting professional for sets/stage/movies/anything; however, I did work in industrial/commercial lighting industry and do know what stuff kinda is supposed to NOT look like.

 

Good lighting I probably won't notice; bad lighting is jarring and obvious when I see it. 

 

That said, it seems to have been less of a problem since the first three episodes, where it was bad in maybe even a majority of the scenes. 

[The Purple Ajah]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

Had it NOT been billed as an "adaptation of the books" made by a "fan of the books" you'd have a point. 

But selling "A Different Turn of the Wheel" might have been seen as problematic if Amazon wants to lure in an already built in fanbase.

 

It is an adaptation, though, and that is not mutually exclusive with being a different turning of the Wheel: a telling of the story in a different format. An adaptation is not a recreation of a book, or filming a book, and to adhere fully to the standards of certain fans is in my opinion discounting the differences inherent to practically any adaptation. The Shawshank Redemption is great despite differences to the original short novel, so is the Princess Bride even though the original author worked on the screenplay itself, and neither of those projects have the huge task of adapting a 14-book series (each novel being several times longer than average length) with extremely intricate worldbuilding. 

 

Rafe did say that people should anticipate changes, and did tell people that it is another turning in his AMA. And to me, it is very apparent that there is a genuine enthusiasm and passion for the source material from the way the actors and crew gush about Jordan's world with every opportunity they get. So yes, he is doing what would make you happy, I guess, so make up your mind with that information.

[WheelofJuke]

Also, the muddiness/unintelligibility of dialogue seems to be a common objective complaint. 

 

This is the only series/movie I've had to watch entirely with the captions on because I can't hear any of the lines clearly.

[Guest Cranglevoid]

I was actually pleasantly surprised by this episode, even if it had a ton of stuff that pissed me off to no end.

 

Logain's speech was really good and Siuan manages to pull off that sense of power in a good way, though she was way too easy-going and lighthearted compared to the books.

 

And then they had to turn Siuan and Moiraine into lovers, for absolutely no reason at all. They could easily have pulled off the episode without it. But of course, they can't help themselves. They have to turn The Wheel of Time into their personal playground and just jam whatever crap that comes to mind into it.

 

And that's what makes me most angry about this series. They're treating it as if they own The Wheel of Time and they are free to do whatever changes they want. There's zero respect for the source material – they just see it as a gateway to inject their own stories through.

[fra85uk]

Bad lighting is all over the place...there Have been different experts explaining on YT

[WheelofJuke]

27 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I agree with almost all of these criticisms. I will argue with "objectively and technically pretty poorly done." But yes: 

• There have been some lighting issues, some inconsistent CGI, bad edits, and uneven set design. I liked Wayne Yip better than the other two directors, for example. But compared to other shows, it's in the upper echelon of quality.
• I'm not sure what you mean by "ham fisted storytelling" - but I will agree that there have been some questionable things. Loial is just part of the group now for ... reasons as an example. The very convenient way everyone just is in Tar Valon because they need to be.
• Which leads into pacing. Which has also been uneven - to put it charitably. But I think most people who have read the books would agree with this: the best stuff is not in EotW. And while we'd all love to have the time to leisurely build out the world like EotW did, If you're going to get to the good stuff, you have to get moving.

I will get into these weeds all day. I love talking about this stuff. In good faith. With people who are interested in this stuff. Not with people who just want to jump in with personal attacks on Rafe, inserting political culture war takes, and pronounce the series 'ruined'. 

 

I agree Wayne Yip did a good job and he should get further cracks at it based upon the generally good results he got.