tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Joe B]

43 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

1 hour ago, Ryan al'Thor said:

Sorry to see Mat go. Apparently he won't be in 7 and 8. Not sure what this means for his spar with the G boys.

I think we get this in S2.

 

[Wassup]

I watched this episode once, so far.  It was as a fan of the books.  So, I may have been distracted by the things that are different and overlooked something.

 

There were a couple mentions of someone "taking the shawl" or when they "took the shawl".  I have not seen anyone wearing a shawl.  Was there some explanation for non-readers to understand what that meant?

 

I do not understand the buildup of Mat not going into the waygate and being left out. 

1. I did not see the gate closed completely with Mat still standing outside.  If they did not show that, the next episode could show him jumping through Indiana Jones style.
2. They did not explain how the waygate works.  It should not close on its own.  Moiraine would be able to open it again if Mat did not make it.  If she cannot open it from inside the ways, how do they plan on getting out?

 

If Moiraine and Siuan are meeting in the world of dreams in the flesh, that is considered evil.  Only evil characters in the books do this of their own volition, with the exception of Rand chasing a forsaken there.  (I could be forgetting another.)

 

Siuan being a dreamer would potentially take away Eg's reason for seeking the Wise Ones.  The Aes Sedai could guard their dreams to keep others out.  The warders had similar protection from the bond.

 

Siuan shouldn't have had to run away.  In Tear, they bundle up girls who can channel as soon as they are discovered and ship them to Tar Valon.  From The Dragon Reborn:

"When they find a Tairin girl who can channel, they bundle her on a ship for Tar Valon

before the day is done, with hardly time to speak goodbyes to her family."

The Amyrlin's murmur was bitter with memory.

 

 

 

[Yojimbo]

13 minutes ago, jh557 said:

I mean from this aspect it only helps them to build the story of why there are so few novices. I know that probably does not make you feel better about it though. I really think that the Moiraine was not lying could be explained away by hedging words and her feeling it was the truth the Nynaeve would not be able to "channel" as in with conscious intent to channel due to her block and no training.  

 

And I know that we did not get it in the show and in the books I believe that it was Rand that healed Bela to make her keep up with the other horse if I am recalling correctly, but maybe in the show Egwene heals Bela during the running scene and Moiraine sensed it then. Or Egwene embraced the source when the Trolloc attacked her in town. Just speculation as it was not actually seen on screen which I know is frustrating as I had the same thoughts as you but maybe semi reasonable scenarios that might help it sit better  

It is frustrating.  More and more so with each episode.   I am getting exhausted with the whole idea of having to do so many mental gymnastics to come up with reasons for why they make seemingly unnecessary changes.  I am a realist and understood going in that there would have to be changes, but the sheer number of them for seemingly no real reason is just heartbreaking.  

 

Like others I am trying to get through the season.  I waited 25 years for someone to make this and I am going to go to the bitter end with it.  But with each episode I have less and less hope that they will ever really tell the story that I fell in love with all those many years ago.   Sure, they are hitting specific milestones of the original story, but the multitude of changes both large and small has, for me at least, taken away  much of its heart, its charm.

 

 I am happy for those who can make the mental adjustments to enjoy the show, though.   At least some of us have gotten what they wanted.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

13 minutes ago, Wassup said:

If Moiraine and Siuan are meeting in the world of dreams in the flesh, that is considered evil.  Only evil characters in the books do this of their own volition, with the exception of Rand chasing a forsaken there.  (I could be forgetting another.)

You are forgetting another - a certain dreamwalker apprentice works out how to do this and later extends this to re-learn travelling.

[DaddyFinn]

Does this forum have an ignore-button somewhere? My finger is itching to put some people in the list. Mob mentality at it's best.

 

Re: Moiraine not knowing Nyn can channel.. Moiraine knows that "listening to the wind" means channeling so there's something going on as others have pointed out. She knew that Egwene and Nynaeve could listen to it.

[chri5]

5 hours ago, JenniferL said:

Alright, let’s try this again. Please recall that bickering is super annoying for the rest of us to watch. 

May the Light shine upon you! ? 

[chri5]

I oddly got a little emotional in the opening scene. 
 

even though it wasn’t the same as the books #thehorror!

 

The healing of the dagger was done well. 
 

Waygates being powered by the Power was weird. Obviously they need loial to navigate them, that’s why she’s bringing him along. 
 

I never thought of that mirror going to TAR until someone here said it. 
 

logain being a jerk trying to get killed worked perfectly with the story thom told.
 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by chri5
Spelling

[chri5]

I saw someone post somewhere in this thread that WOT isn’t a mystery series. 
 

wtf?

 

“Who killed Asmodean” and “Where is Demandred” kept the fan base intrigued for at least ten years!

Edited December 11, 2021 by chri5

[fra85uk]

3 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

EotW was a paint by numbers homage to Tolkien meant to appease what was expected at the time and hopefully allow the door open for RJ to write the rest of his series.

It reads nothing like the rest of the series, it works nothing like the rest of the series, the characters are largely wooden and show very little actual progression or development.

I'll be honest, before I read Wheel of Time I had been reading the Saga of Recluce by Modesitt.  If I had read EotW when it first came out, I'd have never picked up TGH.  But when I got around to reading it TDR had come out and I could push through all three before I had to make a decision.

I know it can be considered derivative but I still find a very enjoyable read and i think the first time i was so compelled that I read all night to finish it. Honestly, for me was the opposite...a friend of mine gave me EoTW as a present and then I bought the rest of the books.

 

I am sure that an action-packed fantasy with lots of adventure and tension would have been well received by the audience but we will never know because showrunners have decided differently. Only time will tell if they made the right choice.

 

[DaddyFinn]

 

 

 

 

 

I guess this explains the Hall scene?

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, Wassup said:

 

 

I do not understand the buildup of Mat not going into the waygate and being left out. 

1. I did not see the gate closed completely with Mat still standing outside.  If they did not show that, the next episode could show him jumping through Indiana Jones style.

That is a cheap cliffhanger trick.  So, yes, this is probably what will happen.

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, Wassup said:

If Moiraine and Siuan are meeting in the world of dreams in the flesh, that is considered evil.  Only evil characters in the books do this of their own volition, with the exception of Rand chasing a forsaken there.  (I could be forgetting another.)

I think only the Wise Ones consider this evil.

[fra85uk]

To add on what Mailman said, I started watching with Great Hope (capital letters intended), not with the mindset "let's see what i can criticize" also because the casting of main characters seemed very good and when you can get Alvaro Morte to play a side-character like Logain...

I really wanted this to be good for me and I was prepared for cuts of all kinds.

But 6 episodes so far, I don't like the narrative direction, i don't like the choice for overarching theme of "who the Dragon is", the lighting and filming are objectively bad (as pointed out by experts of the sector) and, on top of that, I don't like the changes in plot/characters.

But I am far from being someone Hating the show just because of the changes 

 

[AusLeviathan]

The leak of those few seconds long clips from episode 8 has me thinking that the EOTW climax is actually going to be something I'd be happy to see.

 

Spoiler

I'm guessing it's going to be Ishy tricking Rand into taking control of a circle with Egwene, Nyaneve and Moiraine (due to the threat of the Trolloc army) and channeling so much One Power that he doesn't just destroy the Trolloc army but also the seal at the EOTW. Cue the rest of the Forsaken being released and a whole "what have we done" thing with the heroes.

 

Also 50/50 for me at the moment of whether Moiraine makes it past the EOTW.

 

If they're going to change things around, may as well have fun with it.

Edited December 11, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[LoRd PyrO]

On 12/9/2021 at 8:20 PM, Maximillion said:

The show keeps getting worse.

 

 That was supposed to be the best episode?

 

 Incredibly rushed at the end. It was almost comedy at the end. Oh we’re off to see the Dark One. … ok then, let’s go. Cool.

 

 Now possibly 5 dragons??

 

Why is Loial even in the show?

 

 Mat left behind??? 
 

The ‘political drama’ was so badly acted… more like children squealing on each other in front of teacher.

 

 This is so bad it is shocking.

 

The dark one lives at the eye of the world now??????

 

 Rafe has taken a flamethrower to Jordan’s work and the story he is telling is childlike and utterly shallow, without cohesion.

 

I agree. Maybe if I hadn't read the entire series like 8 times, I may enjoy it. But, there are sooo many alterations it makes me cringe

[Vartija]

I'm getting a little worried about Rand. I've been on the fence about wether I like the acting or not, but I can't help feeling the actor is a bit wooden on many scenes. Granted, he has not had much to work with so far, but the line delivering just feels kind of flat and emotionless. Also the "breathy" voice keeps grating me a bit. I'm not sure if that's just the way he talks all the time or if he's trying to add something to it. 

 

Not sure if others have this problem, but I struggle at times to understand the words. I'm usually just fine with watching English shows without subtitles but with this show I've had to rewind a bunch of times just to figure out what's being said. 

[thewalrus777]

On 12/9/2021 at 8:00 PM, Sarlic said:

Hi all.  Long time reader, long time lurker.

 

This episode had me scratching my head a bit, and while I like the series so far and will continue, my biggest frustration with it has been the extraordinary amount of "new" storyline added at the expense of necessary background/exposition.  I've read the books more times than I can count, but my wife never has, and she's watching the show to humor me and trying to get into it.  She has tons of - in my view - legitimate questions about things happening in the show that don't have an appropriate amount of background.  Everything tying directly back to the books is very, very rushed, and yet we can spend an entire episode on Stepin.  (And case an point, my wife had no idea the bond between Aes Sedai and Warders was Power-created.  It wasn't sufficiently explained in the show.)

 

I knew going in that 8 episodes a season was going to result in cuts -- but I think they're really whiffing on some major stuff at the expense of unnecessary additions.  The introduction of the Eye of the World, seemly out of nowhere, was just sloppy.  In the books, it was fast, but at least had some foundation in the dreams of Ishamael (which haven't been given their necessary focus, IMHO, and should have just been left out entirely at this point.)  Why is Loial there at all?  No introduction or background on Ogier, and certainly not even a whiff of explanation about his/Ogier connection to the Ways.  Moiraine concealing from Egwene/Perrin that Rand/Mat were in the city, and vice versa....?  Why?  I'm starting to get really frustrated.  Holding out hope tho because there are some really great moments.

 

And we'll see about Mat being left behind, maybe he jumps through at the last minute.

 

Anyway, I'm sticking with it -- but for whatever reason, this episode really irked me - as an avid reader of the books.  I imagine non-book readers would have been far less bothered.

I'm really dispising how they've made Perrin to be just this big dumb idiot. And that everyone in the Tower sleeps with each other all the time. That's not how any of this works. Perrin isn't a big dumb idiot of a human being and only not everyone is banging each other. Yes there are Aes Sedai who are pillow friends but those who are also, find people they love separately and I just don't see them pursuing those relationships in the show that are vital in the books. This show is just becoming one giant miss for me. I've been reading the books since I was in the 6th grade and I'm 40 so....yeah. This isn't the show I asked for AT ALL.

 

I too am watching the show with my friend Nikki and she's confused half the time and has questions constantly. She's also a fantasy writer and she wonders if they just got a bunch of teens to write the scripts at this point due to how all over the place this show has been with no real continuity at all. As someone who has written in their spare time since high school I have to agree.

[thewalrus777]

On 12/9/2021 at 8:11 PM, Agitel said:

 

I've been a big apologist of the show, but I really think this is unfair. Book purists whined about LotR. Book purists whined about GOT. But not all things are equal. As an apologist for this show I can still admit they are taking quite a broad license with the adaptation, much more than either LotR or GOT, imho. I can certainly imagine something closer that's still far from a page-for-page transcription.

I've been waiting for this since i saw that Red Eagle pilot with Billy Zane. They should've just let Billy Zane redo the pilot and produce the whole show instead of Rafe. This show is so far off from the books that I'm probably not gonna watch them butcher my baby beyond the first season. Stepin was useless melodromatic drivel that served nothing because they didn't tell anyone the bond was done through the one power causing folks to have real questions about all of that. There aren't multiple DR's at the same time. That's absolute utter nonsense. Rafe really doesn't care for the fans even though he swears that he is a die hard fan. He's adding extra stuff into this show when it already exists in the ACTUAL story. That and skipping Caemlyn is a GIANT FREAKING NO-NO for me altogether. A vital part of the story was massively altered and skipped altogether and that doesn't sit well for me because it was a fantastice part of book one.

[Agitel]

I can accept skipping Caemlyn as a concession for adapting, developing sets (Caemlyn won't be seen again for awhile, Tar Valon is coming right back). I am missing some more screen time and development for our EF5, though, and at the cost of time spent elsewhere, even if I know it sets things up down the road, not sure it's worth losing focus on the others.

 

The show hasn't hit its stride yet for me, and late in the season that's concerning. That's not to say it hasn't done anything right. I'm still going to keep watching. It may hit its stride in season two.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Agitel

[DojoToad]

47 minutes ago, thewalrus777 said:

I'm really dispising how they've made Perrin to be just this big dumb idiot. And that everyone in the Tower sleeps with each other all the time. That's not how any of this works. Perrin isn't a big dumb idiot of a human being and only not everyone is banging each other. Yes there are Aes Sedai who are pillow friends but those who are also, find people they love separately and I just don't see them pursuing those relationships in the show that are vital in the books. This show is just becoming one giant miss for me. I've been reading the books since I was in the 6th grade and I'm 40 so....yeah. This isn't the show I asked for AT ALL.

 

I too am watching the show with my friend Nikki and she's confused half the time and has questions constantly. She's also a fantasy writer and she wonders if they just got a bunch of teens to write the scripts at this point due to how all over the place this show has been with no real continuity at all. As someone who has written in their spare time since high school I have to agree.

Agree with many of your issues, but in the end he didn't make the show for you - he made it for Amazon.

[WOTReader2]

A massive problem I have had with these last two episodes is how much time has been wasted with made-up material or making small parts in the books into bigger things. 

 

In this one we have the prologue of Siuan Sanche, which was a complete waste of time. You do not need a backdrop to every character, especially when you have such limited time. It could have just been mentioned in a few seconds if you wanted to do it, but it was never a big thing in the book. It could have even been mentioned in a later season in relation to Tear. 

 

A lot of scenes take too long. The oath scene for Moiraine. I don't even remember this happening in the book, and it really wasn't needed. Just banish her and have it done. Also, the conversation between Siuan and Moiraine was poorly placed. It would have been better the Amyrlin Seat was seen by watcher as legitimately angry with her. 

 

The acting was also terrible around the oath swearing. The Amyrlin Seat is crying and Moiraine is saying different things. I thought they were supposed to be politically experienced? They seem like morons here that have given away their plotting. Looks amateurish. 

 

Another issue is the changes to the story are already creating issues with the storyline, and are leading to some very bad and forced periods. It is pretty concerning for later seasons if they keep on making new material and deviating from the books so much as it is becoming unrecognisable. 

 

In the book, I am pretty sure they are trying to escape Trollocs when they go to the waygate, but are still trying to make their way to Tar Valon. It is only when they find the path broken that they change direction and, eventually, head for the Eye of the World. They also know about the forsaken/dark one wanting the Eye of the World before going there, so it makes sense. 

 

In this episode, it is a quick discussion with no evidence: 'The Dark One is at the Eye of the World; you think one of the five are the Dragon; let's send them there with no training or experience.' It is so bad and there was no reason to do this. 

 

Not enough time has actually been spent on Mat, Rand, and Perrin. Perrin and Rand have barely said anything in the last two episodes. Loial has also been completely destroyed; where is his opposition to entering the Ways?

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by WOTReader2

[MasterAblar]

16 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

 

In the book, I am pretty sure they are trying to escape Trollocs when they go to the waygate, but are still trying to make their way to Tar Valon. It is only when they find the path broken that they change direction and, eventually, head for the Eye of the World. They also know about the forsaken/dark one wanting the Eye of the World before going there, so it makes sense. 

 

In this episode, it is a quick discussion with no evidence: 'The Dark One is at the Eye of the World; you think one of the five are the Dragon; let's send them there with no training or experience.' It is so bad and there was no reason to do this. 

 

 

 

No, in the books Moiraine hears 3 different mentions of the Eye of the World: Jain’s message to the Ogier, the maiden’s warning to the tinkers, and Baalzamon’s statements to the boys in their dreams.

 

From this she decides in Caemlyn to go directly to the Eye instead of heading to Tar Valon.

 

Her justification for taking everyone to  the Eye in the books is quite similar to the show. She realizes she has 3 ta’veren, with Nyneave and Egwene also mentioned as being important, and basically decides to take all of them to the Eye because the pattern will weave around them where they are needed most or some such thing. Pretty damn similar to taking all the possible Dragons if you ask me.

[henfen]

15 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Episode 6 gets a solid 8 stars on IMDB. Your hope that the show will be a dismal failure is simply not materializing.

 

I don't think this is fair at all.  Just because some of express disappointment with choices made for each episode does NOT indicate we hope it will fail.  In fact, I think the opposite is true.  I, for one, hope it will get better.  I want to see this series adapted into a well thought out tv series.  I very much want the whole book series to be adapted.  I wonder why some people feel so defensive of negative criticism for the show.  The book is fiction and the critiques are legit.  It's not personal.  There is some good and some bad.  We have different opinions, that hopefully we can respect.  I like reading people's perspectives that are different than mine.  It would be boring as hell if we all agreed all the time.

[Wraith235]

1 hour ago, thewalrus777 said:

I've been waiting for this since i saw that Red Eagle pilot with Billy Zane. They should've just let Billy Zane redo the pilot and produce the whole show instead of Rafe. This show is so far off from the books that I'm probably not gonna watch them butcher my baby beyond the first season. Stepin was useless melodromatic drivel that served nothing because they didn't tell anyone the bond was done through the one power causing folks to have real questions about all of that. There aren't multiple DR's at the same time. That's absolute utter nonsense. Rafe really doesn't care for the fans even though he swears that he is a die hard fan. He's adding extra stuff into this show when it already exists in the ACTUAL story. That and skipping Caemlyn is a GIANT FREAKING NO-NO for me altogether. A vital part of the story was massively altered and skipped altogether and that doesn't sit well for me because it was a fantastice part of book one.

the Director James Seda was in a (IIRC) Car accident 3 days after filming completed and died ... that and the leagal issues that stemmed from it 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Wraith235

[DojoToad]

5 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

 

No, in the books Moiraine hears 3 different mentions of the Eye of the World: Jain’s message to the Ogier, the maiden’s warning to the tinkers, and Baalzamon’s statements to the boys in their dreams.

 

From this she decides in Caemlyn to go directly to the Eye instead of heading to Tar Valon.

 

Her justification for taking everyone to  the Eye in the books is quite similar to the show. She realizes she has 3 ta’veren, with Nyneave and Egwene also mentioned as being important, and basically decides to take all of them to the Eye because the pattern will weave around them where they are needed most or some such thing. Pretty damn similar to taking all the possible Dragons if you ask me.

Similar, but not the same.

 

In the books, Moiraine is pretty much on her own and makes an executive decision based on the information she was given, her interpretation of that information, and probably a good bit of intuition based on her experience - she was an island.

 

In the show, she has access to all the wisdom and resources of the White Tower and they still just send her off with an Ogier muppet and a handful of 'kids'.