tv show spoilers S1E5: Blood Calls Blood

[Arie]

I found this episode hit a very different note to me, specifically the warder bond. I can see why some may not appreciate the significance of Stepin’s role, and i do think there is some led up for future discussions about how the bond works. 

 

I have had a warder for nearly 2o years. Bonded in spirit but no less significant. We laugh and cry and scheme, and my heart aches for that loss and how that struggle is so real. Was the pacing in this episode a little wonky? Yeah Nynaeve’s jump to the inn bothers me. Liandrin’s … casual nature has my hackles rising. 

 

Whitecloaks irritate me… 

 

But Loial. Oh how I ADORE him, and yes, how he kept talking despite the scene moving? Brilliant. I wish he talked a little slower, but I feel that would be nit picky for TV. If he talked as slow as he did in my head the episode would have been much longer!!

 

 

Also MOD NOTE, Thank you for remaining civil as the mods catch up with the show so we can moderate the forum. Finger pointing isn’t nice, but I see we’re getting into a better rhythm, and we all appreciate that.

[ForsakenPotato]

I feel like I am definitely in the minority on this, but this episode has been one of my favorites so far, second only to the first episode. Lots of folks liked #4 most but it felt like one big awkward family camping trip to me.

 

My favorite parts were the convos with Moiraine & Alanna (they really capture all the politics but also two friends who have known each other so long one can just come eat fruit barefoot on the other's bed), Liandrin & Nyneave (more scheming!), Rand and Mat, Rand and Loial (whose voice reminds me of the audiobook voice for him which I also love). Really it was an episode with a bunch of meetings and yet I was here for it, unlike most of the meetings I actually attended today. For as much as people complain WoT isn't GoT, this episode felt very early GoT to me in a good way: glamor shots of cool cities, people traveling together, and loads of individual character building conversations. I know some action was sacrificed but for me the quieter moments are what make me actually care about the characters enough to be invested in their fates when the action does occur. Also thought Tar Valon was absolutely gorgeous.

 

I didn't mind the Stepin stuff for the most part but agree it could have been much shorter and it was so heavy-handed that if I was not a book reader I'd be expecting Moiraine or Lan keel over dead at any moment. Most of the funeral scene was touching and I've been onboard for almost all the Lan scenes so far but the shirt-ripping was a bit too dramatic. Also agree with what others have said, the Valda scene was cool while I was watching but in retrospect I'm not sure how much of it made sense. Someone better put Valda to the question because we need some damn answers over here.

 

But overall I'm really loving Tar Valon and the tower politics which was not something I planned on saying, and I'm really looking forward to next episode! Seems like the gang will be reunited + Loial, and we get to meet Siuan who was a regular scene-stealer in the books. Throw us some weird fish sayings, Siuan.

[chri5]

3 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

This episode compared to episode 3 also showed off their intentions very well in terms of how they're portraying men and women.

 

Rand is lazily threatened by a short women who's only half paying attention to him and responds by screaming and banging on a door for someone to help and then later runs away in complete terror.

 

Egwene is threatened by a man who makes it clear that he wants to kill her and has her tied up so she can't do anything and she responds by calmly telling him to do it whilst displaying an impressive lack of fear.

 

Did they get these two characters mixed up?

Nynaeve knew that Lan wanted her to help him save Moiraine. She knew she was in no trouble. Why would she be scared? If he has wanted to kill her, she would have already been dead. 

[chri5]

3 hours ago, Harad the White said:

Maybe when he confessed to Egwene.

Lol, it was the same angle. On a rewatch of that original scene it amazes me how clear it actually was that she had the hammer up like that. 

[Harad the White]

Just now, chri5 said:

Lol, it was the same angle. On a rewatch of that original scene it amazes me how clear it actually was that she had the hammer up like that. 

Right! I thought axe so we need another vote.

[chri5]

2 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

Rafe has already dismissed this idea, he was actually surprised people thought it could be the case.

I haven’t heard the full interview. Here is the only relevant quote I could find. While the article says he “debunks” it, unless there is another quote this is not debunking. 
 

This is sidestepping like a bloody Aes Sedai. 

 

"I don't know this fan theory, so I don't wanna engage on it, but I think at least, Laila the character comes from a sentence in the books where Perrin said, I don't remember the exact words, but 'I think if I lived in the Two Rivers a few more years I probably would have married Laila Dearn.' And so, now that the character's aged up a few years we thought it was sort of an appropriate nod to that, that that's who she is," said Judkins in an interview with The Ringer-Verse podcast.

Source - https://www.cbr.com/the-wheel-of-time-showrunner-debunks-laila-darkfriend-fan-theory/

[chri5]

2 hours ago, Canukistani said:

my pet theory is she's not in love with Perrin.  She got pregnant by someone else.  Perrin loves her and married her to give her child a family.   She doesnt want to be with Perrin anymore but can't bring herself to break his heart.  Then the Trollocs attacked and once the Trolloc was killed she saw her opportunity to be rid of Perrin and blame it on the Trollocs.   

Who besides a dark friend would kill her husband and blame it on Trollocs?

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, chri5 said:

This is sidestepping like a bloody Aes Sedai. 

It doesn't matter what anyone sez. Just look at the screen and believe your lying eyes. 

[Harad the White]

7 minutes ago, chri5 said:

Who besides a dark friend would kill her husband and blame it on Trollocs?

 

Yeah. That why I wasn't sure it was a serious theory. Wait, to be fair, it could have been an independent contractor evil dudette. Or, a murderer as I responded. But even then the distinction with a DF is subtle.

 

I wish I knew how to fit a new quote in the edit box above . @Caddysedai would be so proud.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Harad the White

[AusLeviathan]

On 12/3/2021 at 6:12 PM, chri5 said:

I haven’t heard the full interview. Here is the only relevant quote I could find. While the article says he “debunks” it, unless there is another quote this is not debunking. 
 

This is sidestepping like a bloody Aes Sedai. 

Just before that they were talking about Laila and Rafe was asked if she was a Darkfriend to which he immediately said no (he said it very fast without even giving himself a moment to think about his reaction so this is almost certainly the truth).

 

There is something to the scene but it's not that she's Darkfriend, they really were just trying to play up the hammer. What is possible is that they bring the actress back, either for use in TAR or for someone to use her appearance in trying to trick Perrin.

 

https://www.theringer.com/2021/11/19/22792149/the-wheel-of-time-premiere-with-zach-baron-and-rafe-judkins

Edited December 5, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[NetNightmare]

Hello, new to the forum and the discussion so bear with me heh, I concur this was the weakest episode for me, some things i did like other definitely grabbed me out of the story and back on my sofa... at 1:30 am heh...

 

1. "one month later"... well this overlay on the beginning ... they could have let a character say it honestly not a big deal really but well u get it 

 

2. Generally speaking to my personal taste especially the inside of Tar Valon seems diminutive\small, I mean the structure should be as big as to hold thousand of peoples there are levels that nobody ever walk and yest we seem to be always in that same corridor (which to me at least looks cheaply made), outside the general effect is cool though it gives me a Minas Tirith vibe...(but maybe is the wide angle camera shot). Only exception to that are Moraine quarters those looks very cool to me

 

3. Loial... well got mixed feeling on the subject, acting seems on par but height and ears just don't match with my imagination (especially when portraying future battle). wish they had spent way more time on the bonding with Rand

 

4. The Inn, nobody commented on that, but that really broke the magic for me ... first maybe I missed it but was there a name to it ??, Also we see them get in and them BAM we are in their room non innkeeper dialog no common hall no game of dice no wine nothing. Didn't bought it as real honesly

 

5. Logain and Moraine character are probably the most accurate till now, not to count they are probably the best casting too

 

6. Loial appearance with Nyn ... sorry I've hear cat nails sliding on a window, too much constructed

 

7. The "Flame of Tar Valon" (at least I guess that's what was on the SR intention to be) imho was a cool idea, too bad that they choose to change the rings to include a gem of ajah color which wont melt with the gold ..... that's also seems constructed

 

8. The whole remake of Perrin & Egwene capture doesn't ring "likely" and normally for me on fantasy is a key factor. Why Valda is not scared of Egwene if he is sure she can channel ? why does he leave a channeler alone in the tent ? as someone mentioned if it ends up he has a Ter'Angreal as the one  Mat will acquire will be disappointing.

 

Valda is sure Egwene is a channeler ... well I don't know how he can be, though doesn't it ring u constructed that he is sure Egwene can channel but when i find an Aes Sedai all in Blue Ajah garb which probably has a ring sign on her finger (that she just removed) with  a warder (let me guess thats why they removed the cloak) that really looks one, let it go ???

 

9. Egwene trying to kill the WC instead of Perrin, this change imho is dangerous cause the ripple here could lead to many more change on the Perrin plot line.

 

I will conclude saying that imho this episode is the one where I see the major budget constraint, where they had to cope with. lets hope in Episode 6 

 

my 2cp

 

 

[Arie]

Let's get back on topic, please. 

[Mailman]

Dreadful episode worst of the series not good from either a book or non book perspective.

 

Seriously Moiraine has shown zero effort to find the Emonds Fielders and now its a month later and shes hoping they are just going to show up at Tar Valon. 

 

Just a joke of a episode.

[Harad the White]

3 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

Oh the scene is definitely set up in such a way that it looks to be the case, it's apparently completely unintentional though.

 

Based on what Rafe said it appears they were trying to be symbolic by having Perrin cut her with the axe whilst she held the hammer to set up for that character arc of axe vs. hammer. Unfortunately their attempt to put focus on the hammer created the impression that she was trying to kill him and was a Darkfriend.

What is the source of this material?

[NetNightmare]

4 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Pretty sure Moiraine's secret window is her spying on Nyn's room. It's a women with her back turned looking out a window in the ... Picture? 

mmmj I remember Moraine saying that Nyn was in warders Quarters If so I doubt that can be, at first I thought it was just a mirror and she was regretting what she saw ... but hey I can be totally wrong ?

[DaddyFinn]

Very good episode once again! Less action packed and full of important lore and dialogue. I shed a tear or two.

 

Two things that were better than I expected: Loial and Lan mourning in the funeral.

 

Honorable mention: Valda being a coward lmao

 

Time for a rewatch!

[LordyLord]

If I judge this Episode alone on its merits.

I would rate it a 5/10. But the Book purist in me wants to rate it 4/10  because this is the First episode where the Changes were not understandable and actually made it WORSE.

THE GOOD

-The Rand and Matt plot was well condensed. I actually Liked Loial unlike most people

-Tar Valon was beautiful. One of my main complaints of the show was that the World doesn’t feel lived in. FINALLY that has changed.

-It seems we are getting 8 Forsaken not 13.I approve of this change

-Everything Nynaeve is great

 

THE BAD

-MOST of the White tower stuff was unneeded. They cut book content out for Original content that added NOTHING to the story.

Mind you, I don’t mind original content. But only when done right.Last Episode had a lot of original content but they ADDED to the story. So I loved it

In this episode, the Original content detracted

THE Only White tower thing that was relevant was Nynaeve plotline.

Every other thing (STEPIN/LIANDIRIN/ALANNA) was not needed for this episode. That screentime should have been given to actual Book content.

Imagine they had instead used the screentime for more Thom/Matt/Rand on the road for example

-The Perrin/Egwene confrontation with the Whitecloaks was Neutered.It could have been more

-I have to say I found something off about Rand’s actor for a while and I now know what it is.Its his Dialogue.There are moments when he speaks and I can tell English is not his first language.Affects Rand portrayal.

-Nyaneve meeting Rand was rushed. It needed more setup

 

CONCLUSIONS AND CONCERNS

This entire season is not good for weekly consumption because some of the episodes are not strong enough. It should have been released fully.

The Fact that they are willing to cut out more interesting material to make lesser Original content has me worried for season 2.

For example Morainne has a greatly reduced plot importance in Book 2. Will they cut out Rand’s plot to create a new plot to make Morainne relevant? Cause this seems possible.

Also with the fact the season as a whole is split between Good and bad episodes, makes me doubt SEASON 3 renewal even more

[Blackbyrd]

I felt the episode was basically a summation of what the show has done well and what the show has not done well up to this point. The overdone stuff really stood out as overdone while the good things really sang true

 

There's the true WoT swearing

There's Nynaeve talking about Two River Folk

There's Lolial absolutely nailing it- when he was talking in the background I nodded 

The Logain scene was sweet- surpassed the books here

There were some beautiful shots

The Forsaken intro was a nice if a touch on the mumbly side

 

Then you had the Steppin story- which was good and interesting but also overly time consuming all things considered

I'm still puzzled about Lolial finding Nynaeve. Very big 'Let's just leave EF' energy 

You had Valda whose actor is great but at the same time the whole WC gang ar a touch too close to being absolutely over the top- the whole 'I can break vows' line was not great

I'm okay with Lan not being made of absolute steel but- please, please, let us never see a scene like that final scene again. I can live with the primal screams and even the overdone funeral, but the shirt tear was all sorts of terrible. There were a lot of tears this episode and I guess the final scene was supposed to be embody that but I think it just came across as too much

 

It does speak to the immersion- to the sets, scenery, costumes, music that despite all the awkwardness of going from abrupt to super patient with the plot the episode still managed to be gripping. 

 

And yes they did mark time finally! Unfortunately it was in the most boring way possible. Though- marking time is really gonna be more applicable to the first season. Once we get into Hunt things are much less breakneck, much easier to streamline

[Meskell]

Loial being relatively short was off putting, as whilst I understand they want to use practical effects, you can easily use camera angles ala Hagrid and Gandalf to easily make someone tower over regular sized people. 
 

Lan kneeling next to Moiraine was a really odd choice of set up, as he was a good foot away from her and looking somewhere else. The scene was another one meant to imply a romantic relationship I think for non-book readers. 
 

Lan screaming, tearing his shirt open to show his nipples and just generally being a 24/7 emotional wreck is a pretty big problem and ruins the point of Nynaeve being the one to finally pull down the walls he has built following the trauma of losing an entire nation. 
 

The other problem with Lan, as mentioned by someone else, is that he is possibly the single most incompetent character in the whole show up to now. I have zero faith in show Lan being able to hold off Trolloc hoards or train Rand to be a blademaster. 
 

Alanna and Moiraine lying on the bed like teenagers gossiping was really odd. The dialogue was fine but the framing of them lying on the bed like at a sleepover was really odd and doesn’t particularly hold up on viewing. 
 

The implication that if Stepin was bonded to Alanna he would have to become bisexual. Now that was baffling. To then kill him immediately after, made it look like his choice was death over being forced to have sex with one. Very odd.
 

Logain laughing was great and I think that will be called back to as him noticing Rand as a TV, which they may retcon as to why he reacted in such a way to Nynaeve i.e she is now TV. 
 

Liandrin sullying herself by walking in the Men’s/warders quarters isn’t something I felt was in character. 
 

Padan Fain hanging around is a great touch and should make his descent into whatever the hell he becomes even more impactful. 
 

So confused as to why Valda thought Egwene could channel, why he didn’t think a channeler would be able to remove the bonds of Perrin and why he wouldn’t have physical back up. 
 

It did look like the fireball melted when it hit Valda and I could really do without him having a fox head medallion or similar. I think they may be moving in that direction as they can then lean heavily into the ‘he’s a hypocrite, like all fascists, because he is using a ter’angreal’ but it ruins Mat’s journey to get his. 
 

The episode was pretty weak for me and even without book knowledge, felt that a lot of the moving parts just didn’t stack up. 
 

The Forsaken idols were a nice touch and those were some huge boobs on the Grandeal one ?

 

Anybody worked out what Moiraine was looking at behind the gold wall ornament?

[fra85uk]

I will write maybe more later

Just Watched 

 

Finally a very good episode (for me)

[flinn]

 Another massive failure for Lan.

 

 "Lan, you are on suicide watch, think you can handle it"

 

 "Oh yes, I can handle this, this will be easy"

 

 "Don't fall for the old herbs in your wine trick"

 

 "Absolutely not, I will be front and center"

 

 "oh.. damn... the old herbs in my wine trick"

 

 

 I just want to see Lan die a horrible death.

[AusLeviathan]

There have been a lot of character assassinations in this show but Lan's character assassination is without a doubt the worst so far.

 

Why would anyone respect this useless, inept, overly emotional idiot who consistently fails at his tasks.

[dwn]

Valda!Byar!Asunawa is horrid in the best way possible. Given what happens with Morgase, the fact that he basically had Egwene bathed and brought to his tent was particularly squick.

 

Damn but Liandrin!Toveine!Elaida gives me the creeps, too.

 

Loial works well. Very hard to make that character work, but I was sold once most of his lines involved rambling tangents.

 

I expect the suggestion that Siuan is Moiraine's enemy is misdirection, which goes with what they were cultivating in the books to keep the search a secret. Perhaps the woman in Moiraine's painting is Siuan?

 

My only real criticism is I felt the final mourning scene was unnecessary and actually detracted from the tragedy of Stepin's death. Agitel mentioned above that it was to book-end the episode with two funerals, but I don't think it worked particularly well.

 

Oh, and why did Rand and Mat approach TV from the North-East? (I jest. I get that Dragonmount behind TV is a cool shot even if it does't make sense geographically.)

 

[DaddyFinn]

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

And just a point of order, my wife has loved all the Stepin stuff.  I enjoyed the actor alot so I didn't mind it at all and I think it progressed alot of Aes Sedai/Warder stuff and also jumpstarted the Moiraine passing Lan's bond story.

This is why I loved the Stepin story. It is important for later arcs.

 

3 hours ago, chri5 said:

I haven’t heard the full interview. Here is the only relevant quote I could find. While the article says he “debunks” it, unless there is another quote this is not debunking. 
 

This is sidestepping like a bloody Aes Sedai. 

 

"I don't know this fan theory, so I don't wanna engage on it, but I think at least, Laila the character comes from a sentence in the books where Perrin said, I don't remember the exact words, but 'I think if I lived in the Two Rivers a few more years I probably would have married Laila Dearn.' And so, now that the character's aged up a few years we thought it was sort of an appropriate nod to that, that that's who she is," said Judkins in an interview with The Ringer-Verse podcast.

Source - https://www.cbr.com/the-wheel-of-time-showrunner-debunks-laila-darkfriend-fan-theory/

 

 

 

 

 

And for the Stepin's funeral and Lan's screams and shirt ripping.. Lan was the "lead mourner". He showed the emotion all of them were feeling. This is a new tradition for WoT but an old one in our world. I took the shirt rip as a symbolical gesture to show the naked pain and sorrow. Nothing to do with flirting with Nynaeve or him being a crybaby. Seriously.

 

 

[DermidAjala]

I thought this was fine, but definitely my least favourite since the first. I suspect it will work very well for TV only viewers though as it grounds a lot of stuff in day to day relationships while dropping a buttload of stuff for later.

 

I understand that they've used Stepin as a vehicle to really go into the Aes Sedai/Warder relationship, put Lan into context he hasn't been in already, and that it will pay off down the road, but it does feel a bit awkward how much time it has had while outright cutting other things. I also think because they focused on this small group that you really didn't see the Tower as a place full of Aes Sedai - it felt a bit empty and sterile to me (though they did have one shot of novices in the background)

 

Loial's design might not be as I'd ever have imagined, but the characterisation and delivery is great. You can't have him be slow in his delivery with limited TV time so just having him go detailed and long and keep going in the background is great haha.

 

Forsaken statues were a nice touch. 

 

I am not sure how people think Moiraine has a secret window she's spying through. I'm basically 100% that is just a painting that is meaningful to her, and given it is shown immediately after Alanna says she should trust someone with her secrets or it will leave her as bare as this room, I would suggest it was given to her by Siuan (maybe even done by Siuan or Mo)

 

Glad to see Goldeneyes, not sure how I'll feel if they aren't permanent but I guess that's just something you live with. I think poor Perrin's going to be the one getting short changed in the inexplicable powers dept given how they really kind of glossed over the wolf stuff (and the stuff they showed didn't look great).

 

Valda has been a great villain but I think they've short changed him a bit here with the Perrin panic. I suppose he will show up in the Two Rivers next trying to understand how they're breeding all these dark friends.

 

Edit to add - very happy we got the Logain laugh scene, but I do wonder if they're doing so much work to make it not Rand that people are either going to think it's obviously Rand or they're going to feel they've been rug pulled when it is.

 

--

 

Anyway, a cooldown after 4, I'm curious what happens in 6 now because we spent a lot more time in TV than I expected here. I presume dagger resolution part one, white tower politics with Siuan, some more dragon / forsaken lore dumps and a reason to actually go to the Eye. 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by DermidAjala