tv show spoilers S1E5: Blood Calls Blood

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, ArrylT said:

The Wheel of Time is set in a far, far future version of Earth, but I think Jordan didn’t want that to distract us from the main narrative.

Oh Light, you were totally correct - I absolutely see your point and you've completely changed my mind!

[ArrylT]

Update - research shows text from book suggests a Forsaken believes it to be Earth?

 

Spoiler

Graendal jerked upright. "This is preposterous." She could not keep the anger from her voice. "A man I've never heard of has been named the Great Lord's Regent on Earth?" 

 

Chp 12 PoD

 

Original source of research

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by ArrylT

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

You may have, inadvertently, installed the "expletive" version of autocorrect.

Oh, I think my phone’s just really learning my “style” of language… ?

[ManetherenTaveren]

5 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

There are even references to various events that have been codified into legends, e.g. "Did Mosk and Merk really fight with spears of fire, and were they even giants?" (Chapter 20: Winds Rising, Shadow Rising) The names are referring to Moscow (Mosk) and America (Merk) during the Cold War.

I can't wait to see a contrail from within tel'aran'rhiod...?...making one wonder even more... 

[JenniferL]

The world of the Wheel of Time is a future/past Earth because Robert Jordan said so. Move on. 

[Harad the White]

Just now, Dead Warder said:

I see you've quoted the late NightWolf again.

It's an homage, as stated before. The Stepin story was really a recapitulation of Nightwolf's.

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

31 minutes ago, Bruan said:

Another tragedy when they destroyed Thom’s character. We loose out on the tales he was teasing from the age before the age of legends, like the Giant Merc (America) and Mosc (moscow). fighting with fiery lances that reached around the world (ICBM)...

I don’t see how we “loose out on the tales.” Just because Thom doesn’t provide three hours of exposition dumping through songs in his first screen appearance doesn’t mean it won’t happen later on. 
 

I think we all need to remember that at this point in our first reading of the series we didn’t have ALL the answers, world building, and lore. This information needs to be slowly revealed in non-boring exposition dumps. Again, reminder, book vs tv (or film) is a different medium. Give it some time.

 

It’s similar to the earlier complaints about not seeing Fain in SL (ahem, which we don’t actually see in the books series).

 

I’m all for criticism, especially if comparing up to the equivalent of the book series (slightly halfway through EotW) but it’s ridiculous, and unfair, to expect that they can magically upload all this information into our brains within the first 5 episodes (we’re not Neo from the Matrix).

[MasterAblar]

I mean they literally found a Mercedes hood ornament in the museum in Tanchico. That's as close to concrete evidence you're gonna get in the book.

Edited December 5, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, MasterAblar said:

I mean they literally found a Mercedes hood ornament in the museum in Tanchico. That's as close to concrete in book evidence you're gonna get in the book.

There is the pan-Mercedes theory that holds that there was a Primal Mercedes Source that spread hood ornaments all through the developing galaxies during the early period of star and planet formation.

[JaimAybara]

I fell asleep and missed some of the back and forth but tried reading through most of it. I’m seeing good points on both sides of the argument regarding Lan and the boys. However, my point would be this: every change that has elevated someone has really gone to Nynaeve, Egwene, or Moiraine. Does this in of itself upset me? No. Nor should it. But what is upsetting is that the changes that have invariably changed character development in negative ways appears to only be for the men.
 

Furthermore, some of them are borderline character assassination. By this point in the book they had done some very cool things that we haven’t been made privy to yet. This is a fair point. Tam faced down multiple assailants before getting wounded. (Counterpoint I saw: it has been many years since he has used it. Yes, but with this knowledge though they do not separate on any level his prowess from Nynaeve who also killed one sneaking or not. And in the end it is taking ability from Tam on screen while giving something to Nyn.) Lan was a rock and dependable for almost anything and circumstances that led to separation weren’t thrown at his feet. Episode 1 did a pretty good job of showing this, but then it went off the rails a bit. He also started training Rand with his sword and we haven’t seen any of this yet. Perrin killed multiple whitecloaks and gosh we were so close to them getting that right…and then they didn’t do it. That was really frustrating. It in my opinion would have made his story in that episode near perfect. Mat did speak in the Old Tongue and wasn’t a thief and his parents weren’t dirtbags. Now, I’m led to believe everything he learns regarding fighting will be from old memory and nothing from his father, which was a nice touch in the books regardless of how minor it was. 
 

I think it is more than fair what some of the complaints coming from N&N’s have been and they shouldn’t be waved away. Many of them are quite valid. However, they seriously have to present their points in less inflammatory or hyperbolic ways. I would like it if the next few episodes do a little more justice to the male leads. They’re doing great with the female leads. The men  feel a little watered down though at this point.

 

 

Oh, also the question about the world. 
 

- They have stories of the moon landing in The Eye of the World. Briefly referenced by Thom. 
 

-Dinosaur bones. (But this arguably could be in any fantasy world). 

-The Mercedes Emblem 

 

-Jack and the Beanstalk? Maybe? 
 

 

[ManetherenTaveren]

43 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

The world of the Wheel of Time is a future/past Earth because Robert Jordan said so. Move on. 

Haven't you learned anything from Moraine's hapless warning from within Shadar Logoth? Every parent will concur that "Don't touch anything!" will usually result in someone touching something, thus enabling vexing plotlines... ?  

[Bruan]

47 minutes ago, thievingsackofpotatoes said:

I don’t see how we “loose out on the tales.” Just because Thom doesn’t provide three hours of exposition dumping through songs in his first screen appearance doesn’t mean it won’t happen later on. 
 

I think we all need to remember that at this point in our first reading of the series we didn’t have ALL the answers, world building, and lore. This information needs to be slowly revealed in non-boring exposition dumps. Again, reminder, book vs tv (or film) is a different medium. Give it some time.

 

It’s similar to the earlier complaints about not seeing Fain in SL (ahem, which we don’t actually see in the books series).

 

I’m all for criticism, especially if comparing up to the equivalent of the book series (slightly halfway through EotW) but it’s ridiculous, and unfair, to expect that they can magically upload all this information into our brains within the first 5 episodes (we’re not Neo from the Matrix).

Well, it’s not just the exposition dump. Thom does a lot on the journey from when they are separated to the fade incident to reach and mentor the boys. He is why Rand became so obsessed with the flute. He taught Matt a lot of things hat he would come to know with slight of hand, tumbling, other roguish skills. But the show turned him from a knowledgeable, worldly traveller that had a soft spot for the boys because they reminded him of his nephew (at least they didn’t cut Owen out completely) to a weird guitar playing, blues singing drifter out of a western movie, complete with the duster, just passing through town. I get they can’t include everything and need to compress. But they’re changing core characters and really hurting future character development as a result. I have some of the same complaints with Lan and his interactions with the boys early on. By the time they got separated, Lan had already been teaching the boys how to fight, especially rand with his sword... axing that we have Rand and Matt running scared halfway across the world without the backbone to even try and defend themselves.

[MasterAblar]

10 minutes ago, Bruan said:

Well, it’s not just the exposition dump. Thom does a lot on the journey from when they are separated to the fade incident to reach and mentor the boys. He is why Rand became so obsessed with the flute. He taught Matt a lot of things hat he would come to know with slight of hand, tumbling, other roguish skills. But the show turned him from a knowledgeable, worldly traveller that had a soft spot for the boys because they reminded him of his nephew (at least they didn’t cut Owen out completely) to a weird guitar playing, blues singing drifter out of a western movie, complete with the duster, just passing through town. I get they can’t include everything and need to compress. But they’re changing core characters and really hurting future character development as a result. I have some of the same complaints with Lan and his interactions with the boys early on. By the time they got separated, Lan had already been teaching the boys how to fight, especially rand with his sword... axing that we have Rand and Matt running scared halfway across the world without the backbone to even try and defend themselves.

 

I don't recall the boys ever getting into any fight unless they could run in the 1st book. They survive encounters but don't actually do any fighting, which is pretty much what happens in the show.

 

I do think it's sad to lose a lot of the interactions between Thom and Mat and Rand. However I'm hoping we get some of that in the second season since he shows up again, at least for Rand. 

[Bruan]

42 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I don't recall the boys ever getting into any fight unless they could run in the 1st book. They survive encounters but don't actually do any fighting, which is pretty much what happens in the show.

 

I do think it's sad to lose a lot of the interactions between Thom and Mat and Rand. However I'm hoping we get some of that in the second season since he shows up again, at least for Rand. 

Ok, I’m working on memory here so I may be wrong... but did not the core group with lab and Lorain charge into an army of Trollocs shouting ‘Manetheren’ with mat screaming a battle cry in the old tongue? Was it not Matt who threw a knife into that female darkfriend’s throat? Did rand and Matt not jump out of a hayloft to save an illuminated woman from an assault? 

[Ralph]

13 minutes ago, Bruan said:

Ok, I’m working on memory here so I may be wrong... but did not the core group with lab and Lorain charge into an army of Trollocs shouting ‘Manetheren’ with mat screaming a battle cry in the old tongue? Was it not Matt who threw a knife into that female darkfriend’s throat? Did rand and Matt not jump out of a hayloft to save an illuminated woman from an assault? 

 

They charged through in a blind panic and found themselves screaming battle cries, yes. They weren't trying to attack but to escape when there was no alternative. 

 

No DF's throats were knifed. He held it at her throat when she tried to attack Rand. Mili Skane

 

The hayloft yes but just Mat and much later on. Aludra

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Ralph

[Ralph]

13 minutes ago, Bruan said:

Ok, I’m working on memory here so I may be wrong... but did not the core group with lab and Lorain charge into an army of Trollocs shouting ‘Manetheren’ with mat screaming a battle cry in the old tongue? Was it not Matt who threw a knife into that female darkfriend’s throat? Did rand and Matt not jump out of a hayloft to save an illuminated woman from an assault? 

Lab and Lorain, the new chat show. ?

Edited December 5, 2021 by Ralph

[Andromedus]

This show is way better than I dreamed - I am concerned about the toxicity of fans but opinions are just that, opinions.

 

Of the 20-30 non-readers I know watching they all really like it.  It's not perfect but nothing is.  I'm also not the biggest WOT fan (I like it just think MbotF as an example blows it away) admittedly as I feel the series really went downhill after book 7 and wasn't a huge fan of Sanderson's involvement (though I also recognize the impossibly difficult task of finishing another author's work).

 

My main quibble with this ep was that the Stepin story was a bit too much of the episode and the editing of Local showing up with Nynaeve - Logain's scene was perfect and Rosamund is killing it - Lan not being a grumbling stone is an improvement for the tv show imo as it works better.

 

I'd give it a B plus after last week's A plus

 

 

 

 

[Reader]

4 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 

 

1) He's one of the Foresaken

2) He has some object (Angreal) that nullifys or diminishes the OP  

 

3) He's the Gholam

[JaimAybara]

1 minute ago, Andromedus said:

This show is way better than I dreamed - I am concerned about the toxicity of fans but opinions are just that, opinions.

 

Of the 20-30 non-readers I know watching they all really like it.  It's not perfect but nothing is.  I'm also not the biggest WOT fan (I like it just think MbotF as an example blows it away) admittedly as I feel the series really went downhill after book 7 and wasn't a huge fan of Sanderson's involvement (though I also recognize the impossibly difficult task of finishing another author's work).

 

My main quibble with this ep was that the Stepin story was a bit too much of the episode and the editing of Local showing up with Nynaeve - Logain's scene was perfect and Rosamund is killing it - Lan not being a grumbling stone is an improvement for the tv show imo as it works better.

 

I'd give it a B plus after last week's A plus

 

 

 

 

I read somewhere else that there were some scenes for Loial that were cut for time. I really want to see them now and do hope we get extended editions later. Also thanks for the suggestion on the read. Never read MbotF I will have to check it out. I think the show overall is hovering just under greatness if that makes sense? With just a little bit more X factor or magic that inexplicably makes something special paired with minor changes moving forward regarding character development I could see it being truly spectacular.

[DaddyFinn]

5 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I read somewhere else that there were some scenes for Loial that were cut for time. I really want to see them now and do hope we get extended editions later. Also thanks for the suggestion on the read. Never read MbotF I will have to check it out. I think the show overall is hovering just under greatness if that makes sense? With just a little bit more X factor or magic that inexplicably makes something special paired with minor changes moving forward regarding character development I could see it being truly spectacular.

I think it was this youtuber who said his thoughts well. I'm paraphrasing: "It's like in electronic music there's the build-up and then the bass-drop never comes."

 

I love his reactions

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

35 minutes ago, Bruan said:

Ok, I’m working on memory here so I may be wrong... but did not the core group with lab and Lorain charge into an army of Trollocs shouting ‘Manetheren’ with mat screaming a battle cry in the old tongue? Was it not Matt who threw a knife into that female darkfriend’s throat? Did rand and Matt not jump out of a hayloft to save an illuminated woman from an assault? 

They are surrounded by Trollocs and didn’t have a choice. They tried to flee first and being overwhelmed was the reason they headed into SL.

 

Mat grabbed a knife when a dark friend tried to stab Rand when he was having the sickness from channeling the first time. He didn’t stab, let alone kill her.

 

you’re also confusing Mat and Rand with Mat and Thom from BOOK 3 when they are saving Aludra.

 

but the show is performing character assassinations. 
 

?

[Andromedus]

14 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I read somewhere else that there were some scenes for Loial that were cut for time. I really want to see them now and do hope we get extended editions later. Also thanks for the suggestion on the read. Never read MbotF I will have to check it out. I think the show overall is hovering just under greatness if that makes sense? With just a little bit more X factor or magic that inexplicably makes something special paired with minor changes moving forward regarding character development I could see it being truly spectacular.

I'd agree it's got the bones for greatness - you can't please everyone and you shouldn't try - a 14 book behemoth is going to have to lose/merge plotlines and change the pace, just common sense to me.

 

Interested to see the Forsaken and who is cut/merged in that storyline, they were always frustrating villains I would love to see the show make them less stupid.

 

 

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

1 hour ago, Bruan said:

Well, it’s not just the exposition dump. Thom does a lot on the journey from when they are separated to the fade incident to reach and mentor the boys. He is why Rand became so obsessed with the flute. He taught Matt a lot of things hat he would come to know with slight of hand, tumbling, other roguish skills. But the show turned him from a knowledgeable, worldly traveller that had a soft spot for the boys because they reminded him of his nephew (at least they didn’t cut Owen out completely) to a weird guitar playing, blues singing drifter out of a western movie, complete with the duster, just passing through town. I get they can’t include everything and need to compress. But they’re changing core characters and really hurting future character development as a result. I have some of the same complaints with Lan and his interactions with the boys early on. By the time they got separated, Lan had already been teaching the boys how to fight, especially rand with his sword... axing that we have Rand and Matt running scared halfway across the world without the backbone to even try and defend themselves.

I love the Thom, Mat, and Rand travels but there’s no way they were going to fit that all into the show. Could they have used another scene of them bonding? I’d have liked it but currently we have (although briefly) Mat and Thom bonding over the Aiel and Rand and Thom bonding over Mat maybe being a channeler. It’s also during this scene that Thom outright states he’s staying with them to help out as long as he can (because of his nephew).

 

flute Rand is cool but doesn’t have any real importance over the full story narrative.

 

I do wish that there was a very short scene (and they could have easily done this) that showed Lan training the boys while Mo trained Egwene).

 

Rand does try to get the sword back from Dana but she schools his a**. I don’t think running afterwards shows they have no “backbone.”

 

Why does Rand fleeing from a superior fighter show that he doesn’t have “backbone?”

[Andromedus]

21 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I read somewhere else that there were some scenes for Loial that were cut for time. I really want to see them now and do hope we get extended editions later. Also thanks for the suggestion on the read. Never read MbotF I will have to check it out. I think the show overall is hovering just under greatness if that makes sense? With just a little bit more X factor or magic that inexplicably makes something special paired with minor changes moving forward regarding character development I could see it being truly spectacular.

Also yes give mbotf a try, but it's not for everyone, just like Bakker, another fave of mine ?

 

I do want to see Ishy and the wolves talk, those are important elements to me

[Spiritweaver1]

So yesterday I watched E5 as the culmination of a binge of the entire season to date.  I also have been rereading the books and am nearly done with The Shadow Rising.   I posted more general comments about the series trajectory in the Accepting the Adaptation thread.  Let me just say here it isn't good. 

 

From a S5 perspective I thought they should have put the money they saved in not having to CGI/VFX Caemlyn which is where the events of this episode take place in the book.  I was very disappointed  in Tar Valon. Clearly the VFX artist never read the description of the city in the books nor did they try to duplicate them.   Very very disappointing and not promising when we visit the other great cities.  That makes me wonder if we are going to ever go to Caemlyn??  What about Tear?

 

The writing team has pretty much abandoned the original story line at this point.  In my imaginings I had envisioned cuts but not complete reworking for no good reason that I can see.  Lot's of speculation about Liandrin /Elaida but what about Moraine?  They have sunk a whole lot of effort into her character and she is the acknowledged star but she has a giant time out in the books.  What is gonna happen there?  On the positive side I did think the Ewegene/Perrin experience with the Whitecloaks was probably an equivalent story to RJ's version of events.  it is an example of rewriting to make it better for TV perhaps but staying reasonably in synch with the story.  In any event this  episode changes so much that it is clear to me that they are never coming back to an adaptation.  It is now a based on story.

 

Moraine is not a borderlander as noted by others.   

 

More Warder lore was a positive addition.

 

Loial's character was excellently portrayed and will be a great addition to the story going forward as he was in the books .  Couldn't they have found some way to make him taller?

 

Melting the ring another positive addition symbolically if entirely new.  All hail LOTR.

 

I was glad to see glints of the iron will that makes Ewegene one of my most loved characters.   Do not muck up this or I may quit watching.

 

In summary this episode explodes the book WOT story plot markers like the visit to Caemyln.  We are in blank whiteboard land where literally anything can happen.  If Nynaeve is revealed as the Dragon Reborn it won't take the story much further into the woods than the writers seem to be going.  This episode has a lot of important aspects done poorly so am feeling a lot more sad about the series which I always hoped would be great.