tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[CaddySedai]

Always take the spread @Dead Warder

[phoenixtrinity]

4 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

Sure but they just ruined Rand's big moment by taking the exact situation of him listening to the insane voice in his head and coming to that conclusion and turned it into a punchline.

 

Why? What possible reason could they have for doing that? Oh that's right because Rand won't have that moment in this series because he's not the DR.

 

My thought is that they're demonstrating that normal people like Moiraine, who has never experienced the agony or madness of a male channeler personally, can't understand the weight of what Logain is saying. She does smirk at him -- she thinks he's mad. In the books, we also aren't sure if Rand is hearing a real Lews Therin or an imagined one; indeed the other characters all think Rand is mad. We as readers don't even know until we get the scene on Dragonmount where Rand determines it doesn't matter. It's what Rand does with it that matters.

 

I didn't see it as them "spoiling" Rand's moment at all. I saw it as an emphasis on the theme that is prevalent throughout the books. What made the Dragonmount scene so powerful to me was precisely the dilemma Rand had to put himself through, to see him go through agony as everyone he trusted thought he was mad. As someone who has experienced possible mental health issues in the past that still haven't been fully explained, do you know how utterly terrifying it is to not know what is real and what is not real? It's very rare to read a scene in a book that plays with that concept in such an honest way -- that you can be both mad and, in a sense, take something profound away from that experience.

 

 

[Tim]

Wow getting through all of the last few hours of argumentative posts just so I could post an opinion on episode 4 has been challenging! I was worried the thread would get locked just as I got here (this has happened to me twice in the last fortnight).

 

Really enjoyed this episode. I don't see it as a material step-change improvement but a continuation of a broader upward trajectory. The deviations from the book now feel natural rather than jarring, which is the spirit in which I take the "different turning of the wheel" line from Sanderson.

 

I'm gonna post opinions in spurts so I don't miss and inadvertently cut across fifty new posts.

FIRST, and maybe I am alone on this, but I did not conclude that Thom is convinced Mat can channel. I think it's just as likely that he was worried that one or other of them might be able to channel and actually suspects it's Rand. It's possible that he even knows one of them might be the dragon (it's implied he overheard a lot of what Dana said to them). He spends a lot of time talking about how Owyn lied to him and didn't tell him he could channel. If he thought Rand might be able to channel, a good way to have a conversation with him about it would be through misdirection - "we need to protect Mat from the Aes Sedai" becomes an acceptable way of saying "if you can channel then we need to protect you from the Aes Sedai" without forcing the issue. 

I think the audience is meant to conclude that Thom thinks Mat can channel (less likely that Mat can channel - I think the hinting that his issues are something else are too clear to ignore even for a non-bookreader). But this possibly sets up a great scene later on where Rand meets Thom again and is like "It's not Mat who channel, it's me." And Thom is like, "I know, lad, I know."

 

[phoenixtrinity]

1 minute ago, Tim said:

FIRST, and maybe I am alone on this, but I did not conclude that Thom is convinced Mat can channel. I think it's just as likely that he was worried that one or other of them might be able to channel and actually suspects it's Rand. It's possible that he even knows one of them might be the dragon (it's implied he overheard a lot of what Dana said to them). He spends a lot of time talking about how Owyn lied to him and didn't tell him he could channel. If he thought Rand might be able to channel, a good way to have a conversation with him about it would be through misdirection - "we need to protect Mat from the Aes Sedai" becomes an acceptable way of saying "if you can channel then we need to protect you from the Aes Sedai" without forcing the issue. 

I think the audience is meant to conclude that Thom thinks Mat can channel (less likely that Mat can channel - I think the hinting that his issues are something else are too clear to ignore even for a non-bookreader). But this possibly sets up a great scene later on where Rand meets Thom again and is like "It's not Mat who channel, it's me." And Thom is like, "I know, lad, I know."

 

 

This is a unique perspective about the Thom and Rand conversation that I haven't seen yet. I think it has merit! Also I completely agree with, "The deviations from the book now feel natural rather than jarring, which is the spirit in which I take the "different turning of the wheel" line from Sanderson."

 

I'm stoked to see more episodes ?

[Harad the White]

7 minutes ago, Tim said:

FIRST, and maybe I am alone on this, but I did not conclude that Thom is convinced Mat can channel.

Ok...your point is that Thom is lying while he tells the Owyn story. That's subtle, although I see no evidence of it, except that the other interpretation, i.e., Thom is telling the truth, is contrived.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Harad the White

[Tim]

As to Logain appearing to steal Rand's veins of gold speech? He can't, because Tam already did in episode one. Tam said explicitly to Rand that he thinks we come back so that we can do better next time. It's so explicit that it immediately led me to think that if they ever get to veins of gold we'll get a flashback to Tam saying that.

 

Logain makes the slightly different point that the voices are telling him how to be a better dragon. I think Moiraine is understandably dismissive, because it sounds vainglorious: I am the dragon, and I have voices inside my head telling me how to be the best dragon ever. It reminds me of how Ingtar convinces himself in TGH that he is able to sound the horn for his own salvation - but it's other people's salvation that matters. Similarly, Rand's epiphany on dragonmount would have been a lot cheaper if his existential crisis had been limited to his own specific issues as dragon reborn (also, notably, while Rand was mad, LTT was distinctly unhelpful in terms of teaching him how to do the whole dragon thing better).

[Tim]

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Thom compared Matt to Owyn, his nephew channeler. And equally telling Thom said to Rand, "We should keep him away from those women." (Meaning the Aes Sedai.) Also, the fact that Thom said that to Rand, implies that the warning does not apply to Rand.  Thom's conclusion of course in not correct, and I believe contrived to forward the misdirecton as to the identity of the DR.

 

Obviously that is what Thom said to Mat. I'm suggesting that Thom may not actually be entirely truthful here.

[Harad the White]

5 minutes ago, Tim said:

Logain makes the slightly different point that the voices are telling him how to be a better dragon. I think Moiraine is understandably dismissive, because it sounds vainglorious

And what do you think of the shadows in Ghealdan telling Logain to murder the King?

[Sabio]

It's rather funny how much a few changes make people panic that the whole series is different.  If you wanted one clue who the dragon is, the quick view of the Aiel's hair in E3 should give you a clue.  I really can't see RJ's wife signing off on something so drastic as a totally new dragon.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Sabio

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, Tim said:

Obviously that is what Thom said to Mat. I'm suggesting that Thom may not actually be entirely truthful here.

Sorry you caught me before the edit. My current reaction to what you said is that Thom is either lying or giving a contrived "truth." Don't know if either is believable.

[Harad the White]

9 minutes ago, Sabio said:

quick view of the Aile's hair in E3 should give you a clue. 

Why does that point to the DR?

[Tim]

Although I do not share AusLeviathan's negativity, I agree that it seems likely that the show will make Nynaeve a more powerful channeler than Logain, and perhaps the second most powerful light-side channeler after Rand.

 

Good!

 

RJ's power differential versus linking ability approach was perhaps the most ham-fisted of the gender separation ideas in the books (men have more strength but women can work together is like if someone's main problem with men are from mars, women are from venus was that it was too nuanced), and the idea that they would make it possible for women to be the dragon but not junk that is bizarre to me. 

As it stands, in the books none of the light-side female channelers who are stronger than Nynaeve end up mattering very much (with Alivia's plot being a deliberate fake-out), and probably won't even appear in the show. So Nynaeve will likely be the strongest female channeler perhaps give or take one or two of the forsaken. Moreover, her character also heals gentling/stealing, learns how to heal taint madness, helps Rand to cleanse saidin and is one of the two aes sedai who Rand takes with him into shayol ghul. All of those character developments suggest that the should be the strongest light-side channeler after Rand. The fact that this wasn't the case is really only because of RJ's gender split. Nothing important in the plot turns on it otherwise - it's not like Logain does anything particularly amazing later on, other than give up on his plan to find a sa'angrael and rescue people instead (i.e. his "glory" derives from rejecting an association of strength with greatness).

I don't see how any of that is inconsistent with the show later presenting Rand as the strongest light-side channeler by several orders of magnitude (which is consistent with everything the show has said so far about the DR, including what Moiraine says to Logain).

[Sabio]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

Why does that point to the DR?

Really?

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Sabio said:

Really?

Really. Does the DR have red hair? Did LTT? 

[Tim]

I agree that Liandrin's character has changed from the books. In the books, all of the black ajah we meet early on are presented as pretty one-dimensional in their evil, and then the picture is gradually blurred over the course of the books, culminating in one character in particular who seems to have joined the black ajah for fairly prosaic, human reasons: 

Spoiler

Sheridan

I think Liandrin will ultimately prove rather more evil than that, but I like that she is presented as more complex and human than in the books.

 

[Sabio]

2 minutes ago, Tim said:

Although I do not share AusLeviathan's negativity, I agree that it seems likely that the show will make Nynaeve a more powerful channeler than Logain, and perhaps the second most powerful light-side channeler after Rand.

 

Good!

 

RJ's power differential versus linking ability approach was perhaps the most ham-fisted of the gender separation ideas in the books (men have more strength but women can work together is like if someone's main problem with men are from mars, women are from venus was that it was too nuanced), and the idea that they would make it possible for women to be the dragon but not junk that is bizarre to me. 

As it stands, in the books none of the light-side female channelers who are stronger than Nynaeve end up mattering very much (with Alivia's plot being a deliberate fake-out), and probably won't even appear in the show. So Nynaeve will likely be the strongest female channeler perhaps give or take one or two of the forsaken. Moreover, her character also heals gentling/stealing, learns how to heal taint madness, helps Rand to cleanse saidin and is one of the two aes sedai who Rand takes with him into shayol ghul. All of those character developments suggest that the should be the strongest light-side channeler after Rand. The fact that this wasn't the case is really only because of RJ's gender split. Nothing important in the plot turns on it otherwise - it's not like Logain does anything particularly amazing later on, other than give up on his plan to find a sa'angrael and rescue people instead (i.e. his "glory" derives from rejecting an association of strength with greatness).

I don't see how any of that is inconsistent with the show later presenting Rand as the strongest light-side channeler by several orders of magnitude (which is consistent with everything the show has said so far about the DR, including what Moiraine says to Logain).

Honestly it seems every channeler in the show is super powerful, Moiraine isn't that strong and look at what she did in the first show.

[Sabio]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

Really. Does the DR have red hair? Did LTT? 

Did you read the book?  LTT's hair has nothing to do with it.

[Tim]

I think the prophecy was that the DR would be born of the ancient blood and raised by the old blood - meaning the Aiel and the descendants of Manetheren, respectively. I don't think Moiraine knew what that meant in the books (or not at first), and it would be surprising for Thom to understand it - but it's notionally possible either that in the show the prophecy will give another more explicit hint regarding Aiel heritage, or that Thom could have put two and two together once he saw Rand's hair and heard Dana say one of them is the dragon.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Tim

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Sabio said:

Did you read the book?  LTT's hair has nothing to do with it.

You may not understand, but I ask a question to get the answer. Why does the Aiel hair point to Rand as the DR?

[CaddySedai]

6 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Honestly it seems every channeler in the show is super powerful, Moiraine isn't that strong and look at what she did in the first show.

 

Wha? Moiraine was at the formerly recognized top level of power amongst the Aes Sedai. 

 

Well, aside from Cadsuane who was heads taller in power than anyone up until those young whippersnappers showed up ?

 

And then the Chosen also showed back up <.< ?

[Yojimbo]

Just now, Harad the White said:

You may not understand, but I ask a question to get the answer. Why does the Aiel hair point to Rand as the DR?

Maybe it's just a Red Hairing.

 

Sorry.   It's late and I'm tired.  

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Tim said:

I think the prophecy was that the DR would be born of the ancient blood and raised by the old blood - meaning the Aiel and the descendants of Manetheren, respectively. I don't think Moiraine knew what that meant in the books (or not at first), and it would be surprising for Thom to understand it - but it's notionally possible either that in the show the prophecy will give another more explicit hint regarding Aiel heritage, or that Thom could have put two and two together once he saw Rand's hair and heard Dana say one of them is the dragon.

Thanks for an answer. This would not yet apply to the Amazon universe, as you say.

[Harad the White]

14 minutes ago, Tim said:

or that Thom could have put two and two together once he saw Rand's hair and heard Dana say one of them is the dragon.

Wow. Is this the origin of your "Thom was lying about Owyn = Matt" theory? Incredible. I don't believe it, but, incredible!

Edited November 30, 2021 by Harad the White

[melsnitker]

36 minutes ago, Tim said:

As to Logain appearing to steal Rand's veins of gold speech? He can't, because Tam already did in episode one. Tam said explicitly to Rand that he thinks we come back so that we can do better next time. It's so explicit that it immediately led me to think that if they ever get to veins of gold we'll get a flashback to Tam saying that.

Thank you. I came here to say this, and you said it better than I could. I was starting to think I imagined that scene.

[Yojimbo]

3 minutes ago, melsnitker said:

Thank you. I came here to say this, and you said it better than I could. I was starting to think I imagined that scene.

And this scene may be why they didn't have the prologue with LTT.   If they had and then had shown this scene it would have told anyone with a modicum of intelligence that Rand is the DR.