tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[Kudzu]

5 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Much of the series has to be rewritten, you are aware of how much this series leans into the fact the DR can only be a man right?

 

Which bits have to be re-written specifically? In 13 of the books the Dragon Reborn is known to be a man.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Kudzu

[Sabio]

11 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

She says it that way, because he sounds insane. 

 

Imagine a homeless person comes up to you and says "the people in my head told me to say hi to you. Hi".

I do agree that it stole one Rand's most defining moments of his understanding why the creator lets this happen over and over,

[AusLeviathan]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

What has to be re-written?

The prophecies, the One Power strength potential for genders, the False Dragon's, the Red Ajah, people's perceptions of female channelers, do the Aiel still only send men to the Blight, do the Seanchan check if their Damane are the DR.

 

Do you see how things start to fall apart when you actually examine it. Unless we later find out that the Aes Sedai are idiots and everyone else knew it had to be a man it's not really going to make sense without mass rewrites.

[dog421]

44 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Every episode will have plot development, 5-8 and 9+. When does Padan Fain gain the Dagger? Dunno. I was estimating episode 25 but that's a shot in the dark. Let's say 17 +/- 10.

understood. thanks. It sounds like you read the books. For me, the books are like the bible, and it is sacrilege to add or subtract from them. I didn't mind that they changed Perrin's kill from a whitecloak to his wife, because it would have been crazy expensive to show that huge whitecloak camp from the book. Instead, we see like 10 in the woods after they leave Emond's Field. I did have a problem with how corny they made that one questioner who sloppily eats bloody meat while laughing at women being burned alive. Way too cliche. Also, I don't understand where they are going with the whole subplot of his father being a womanizer in a town of 14 people, in broad daylight, his mother being an alcoholic, and neither of them caring about their children. They were perfectly content to just let their daughters be killed in the trolloc raid. Weird.

[dog421]

For me, the books are like the bible, and it is sacrilege to add or subtract from them. I didn't mind that they changed Perrin's kill from a whitecloak to his wife, because it would have been crazy expensive to show that huge whitecloak camp from the book. Instead, we see like 10 in the woods after they leave Emond's Field. I did have a problem with how corny they made that one questioner who sloppily eats bloody meat while laughing at women being burned alive. Way too cliche. Also, I don't understand where they are going with the whole subplot of his father being a womanizer in a town of 14 people, in broad daylight, his mother being an alcoholic, and neither of them caring about their children. They were perfectly content to just let their daughters be killed in the trolloc raid. Weird.

[AusLeviathan]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

He doesn't come to that conclusion by listening to the insane voice in his head.

I'm pretty sure he comes to that conclusion after listening to the very much insane Lews Therin's voice having a lucid moment.

[Kudzu]

Just now, AusLeviathan said:

The prophecies,

Not the plot

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

the One Power strength potential for genders

Not the plot

 

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

the False Dragon's

Not the plot

 

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

the Red Ajah, 

Why?

2 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

people's perceptions of female channelers

Already pretty poor

2 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

do the Aiel still only send men to the Blight

Probably, since they are the only ones that go insane

 

2 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

do the Seanchan check if their Damane are the DR

Do they check if men are before they kill them?

 

Still nothing you are claiming needs to really change the plot or the characters in the story. It's all peripheral world building stuff.

[Agitel]

Perrin and Egwene are encountering Whitecloaks in the next episode.

 

The Cauthon's being terrible wasn't a separate subplot, it was meant to characterize Mat and also give him some likable moments in caring for and running out into danger to save his sisters.

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

The prophecies, the One Power strength potential for genders, the False Dragon's, the Red Ajah, people's perceptions of female channelers, do the Aiel still only send men to the Blight, do the Seanchan check if their Damane are the DR.

Alright, let's take a look here.

The prophecies say it's a man.  People disagree on if the prophecy is accurate.  Rafe already said this.  Re-write avoided.

One power scales?  Only because there's an idea that the DR is possibly a woman.  We've already established the Karetheon cycle is right, problem averted, no re-write needed.  Future incarnations could be female and maybe Saidar gets tained, not relevant to this story.

The Red Ajah.  What about them needs to be re-written?  They're not anti-dragon hunters, they're police against misuse of the one power which when Men use drives them insane.  No re-write needed.

People's perception of female channelers:  What needs to be re-written? 

Do the aiel still only send Men to the Blight?  Yes, because only men touch Saidin and go insane.

Do the Seanchan check their Damage for being the DR?  Probably.  Since their version of the prophecies say the DR will bow to the Crystal throne.  What re-writes does this cause?

Nothing you've said requires a re-write of any kind.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, dog421 said:

Also, I don't understand where they are going with the whole subplot of his father being a womanizer in a town of 14 people

Funny. The way to do it, and this will enhance your life, is to let go of "purism." You liked the Books as did I. By necessity Amazon can not be the Books. It's a re-visit to the WoT world with a different POV. Judge it completely on its own merits. Despite what some N&Ns say, it's the same world, inhabited by the same characters. Details change and there are motives for that to accommodate the new POV. Will you give it 100%? Will you give it 0%? Probably something in between. I like it, but I don't give it 100%. See above my disagreements with the 100%ers. Don't hold Amazon up to a standard you would never use for other movies, restaurants, or people. 

[Agitel]

3 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Alright, let's take a look here.

The prophecies say it's a man.  People disagree on if the prophecy is accurate.  Rafe already said this.  Re-write avoided.

One power scales?  Only because there's an idea that the DR is possibly a woman.  We've already established the Karetheon cycle is right, problem averted, no re-write needed.  Future incarnations could be female and maybe Saidar gets tained, not relevant to this story.

The Red Ajah.  What about them needs to be re-written?  They're not anti-dragon hunters, they're police against misuse of the one power which when Men use drives them insane.  No re-write needed.

People's perception of female channelers:  What needs to be re-written? 

Do the aiel still only send Men to the Blight?  Yes, because only men touch Saidin and go insane.

Do the Seanchan check their Damage for being the DR?  Probably.  Since their version of the prophecies say the DR will bow to the Crystal throne.  What re-writes does this cause?

Nothing you've said requires a re-write of any kind.

 

Right, none of it really changes any of the plot arcs. Even if they get rid of "men are in general stronger in the power", there's no big change to any of the story beats.

[dog421]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

You never know who is on your side until you say something.  Lilandrin was simply trying to play on emotions by mentioning sisters had died trying to capture him.  Also not really a surprise since was already mentioned in the show of rumors of Red's gentling men on the spot.  So not really shocking Lilandrin might hint that it should be done.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Besides maybe the person she was asking to break the law wasn't as "loyal" to the tower as she seemed.

 

 

Again, If I never read the books, I wouldn't really be mad that the green and the red had the conversation about how it was right or wrong to gentle Logain against tower law, and against the wishes of the Amyrlin, it's more about how things were said. It really didn't really sound like two aes sedai talking. Why would the green have a conversation like that with her. In another show like General Hospital, or NCIS it would have made sense to have a conversation like that because it shows where both characters are in a conflict, and you start to wonder how the conflict will resolve. With Aes Sedai, nothing is ever on face value like that, and an Aes Sedai would never let another Aes Sedai know that she stands against her. In the books, one of the novices is giving an Aes Sedai some problems, and Suine Sanche says she fears the novice is going to have an accident. Egwene immediately reconizes that she is suggesting that they just murder her and be done with it. Suine Sanche isn't even black ajah. That's just how a these women think. It makes no sense for the green to have this conversation with her when she knows she is not going to changer her mind. Aes Sedai only try to debate when they think there is a chance that they will change the others mind, like when the sitters are having a council meeting in the hall. Normally, it makes sense, but for Aes Sedai to have a conversation like this, is reckless with their lives. Especially for the green, who knows she has been going around getting support.

[Harad the White]

Just now, Dead Warder said:

I give it a soft 68.47%..

Passing, but only barely.

[SinisterDeath]

14 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Sure but they just ruined Rand's big moment by taking the exact situation of him listening to the insane voice in his head and coming to that conclusion and turned it into a punchline

It wasn't a punchline.

A punch line is Mat telling Rand that's now how roads work.

 

15 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Why? What possible reason could they have for doing that? Oh that's right because Rand won't have that moment in this series because he's not the DR.

Of course he's the DR, and you're jumping to wild conclusions.

 

Logain is certifiably crazy, even if the voices turn out to be real for Logain.

 

The big moment for Rand is that his voices weren't madness. Even after that moment, people still thought he was quite mad.

 

18 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Also ask yourself this. If they couldn't stomach a prophecy about a male DR, how will they be able to handle "He Who Comes With The Dawn". Get ready for "They Who Comes With The Dawn".

Or you know... They'll have all these prophecies about the dragon that aren't actually about who the DR is, but they don't know that.

 

Like in the books, we had prophecies concerning Mat & Perrin. They could include female prophecies concerning Eggs, and Nyn to further muddle things up while keeping the prophecies mostly intact.

[AusLeviathan]

5 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

Still nothing you are claiming needs to really change the plot or the characters in the story. It's all peripheral world building stuff.

Which will require rewrites because that world building is heavily part of how and why the characters act the way they do.

 

5 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

We've already established the Karetheon cycle is right, problem averted, no re-write needed.

I'm fairly certain that Rafe confirmed that souls have no gender and that you can be reborn as either a man or a woman.

 

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Nothing you've said requires a re-write of any kind.

These changes that affect how people act and why they act that way and form a backstory for the characters and the world doesn't require a rewrite?

 

Then why not change who the DR is, there's no need for a rewrite, just have him follow the same path and claim it's the prophecy of the Car'a'carn, problem solved now we can get a different DR that will subvert expectations and surprise everyone.

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, dog421 said:

That's just how a these women think. It makes no sense for the green to have this conversation with her when she knows she is not going to changer her mind. Aes Sedai only try to debate when they think there is a chance that they will change the others mind

Wow there's a lot to unpack here. First, I pray that this is a gender reveal. Second, you have proven that there are no AS posters here (despite their names) because no one changes anyone's mind. But third, I disagree that any of that is true.

[AusLeviathan]

3 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Or you know... They'll have all these prophecies about the dragon that aren't actually about who the DR is, but they don't know that.

Perhaps Egwene will be the Super DR and Nynaeve will be the Ultra DR, yes that works it's all coming together now.

[dog421]

3 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Funny. The way to do it, and this will enhance your life, is to let go of "purism." You liked the Books as did I. By necessity Amazon can not be the Books. It's a re-visit to the WoT world with a different POV. Judge it completely on its own merits. Despite what some N&Ns say, it's the same world, inhabited by the same characters. Details change and there are motives for that to accommodate the new POV. Will you give it 100%? Will you give it 0%? Probably something in between. I like it, but I don't give it 100%. See above my disagreements with the 100%ers. Don't hold Amazon up to a standard you would never use for other movies, restaurants, or people. 

I understand what you are saying, and I have judged it accordingly for not following the book ver batim. It makes sense that Matt went off alone and to get the dagger and that he never found that dude that swelled up in the treasure room. I understand why the make some concessions to cut down on what would have been huge production costs. But other things make me feel like there are a lot of newbies to the film industry making this show. A lot of the scenes just immediately snap me right out of the moment. I will be honest that some of it wouldn't have bothered me if I hadn't read the books, like the way the warders act. I was in the army, and when I think about warders, I think about marines, that did everything we did, but to a higher level. I never saw that with these guys. In the books, they make it clear, that Lan is even more warder than other warders, but he isn't stony at all in this show. Other things I can't forgive, like the way Moraine was introduced at the banquet hall in the two rivers, where Lan busts the door, introduces her, steps aside, and she enters mysteriously. First of all, it felt like I was watching a middle school play written and performed by middle schoolers. Just corny as all hell. Just like when the reds chased that guy on horseback. Nothing in game of thrones ever came off as being so fake. It was possibly the worst scene of television I have ever watched. Secondly, that tavern introduction would have made sense if it was our first time seeing her, but we saw her watching the reds gentle a dude from on top a mountain. Why she was there was anybody's guess. You can tell that the producers/director didn't know which intro scene to use, then decided, screw it, we'll use both.

[Kudzu]

4 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Which will require rewrites because that world building is heavily part of how and why the characters act the way they do.

Ok, so which major plot arcs need to change due to any of that?

[TheDreadReader]

7 minutes ago, dog421 said:

Again, If I never read the books, I wouldn't really be mad that the green and the red had the conversation about how it was right or wrong to gentle Logain against tower law, and against the wishes of the Amyrlin, it's more about how things were said. It really didn't really sound like two aes sedai talking. 

 

In the end, the Green voluntarily joined in the gentling after Liandrin started the circle to do it.  One might say that Liandrin's pressure tactics, deployed before Logain's escape attempt, influenced the outcome.  That is a well crafted plot development.

 

As, for the whether the dialogue sounds "aes sedai" that seems a more subjective argument with no clear answer beyond individual taste.

 

[AusLeviathan]

1 minute ago, Kudzu said:

Ok, so which major plot arcs need to change due to any of that?

Everything to do with Rand from Falme onward since he won't be the DR?

[Harad the White]

Just now, AusLeviathan said:

Perhaps Egwene will be the Super DR and Nynaeve will be the Ultra DR, yes that works it's all coming together now.

If only...how about a world with a forum in which every ridiculous prediction was punished with, e.g. one less lifetime post allowed, waiting, of course, for the ridiculous prediction to be proven wrong. Now this just might be hyperbole, something I usually endorse.

[Chadouken]

45 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

I know people have this theory.  I personally don't see it yet.   But, which forsaken do you think it is?

 

I don't know, man. Moghedien maybe because she can dreamwalk? With all the changes it could be anyone, I just instantly thought "Forsaken!" when I first saw them. It could very well be just the madness from the taint itself.

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, dog421 said:

Other things I can't forgive, like the way Moraine was introduced at the banquet hall in the two rivers, where Lan busts the door, introduces her, steps aside, and she enters mysteriously.

But this is the VERY thing that films do. All films, and especially all good films.

[dog421]

6 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Wow there's a lot to unpack here. First, I pray that this is a gender reveal. Second, you have proven that there are no AS posters here (despite their names) because no one changes anyone's mind. But third, I disagree that any of that is true.

I feel like the books have painted a very clear picture of Aes Sedai, such that they would play their cards very close to their chests, and that two Aes Sedai wouldn't have had a conversation that went down like this. It was very heavy on exposition, and not in a natural way. In a world where everything is strange and bizzare you usually have exposition by things being explained to a character who is as new to the world and its rules as the audience. Not through two people who are familiar with the world and how it works. It just came across as wrong as I was watching it. I was disappointed. You can disagree.