tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, dog421 said:

one of the main themes of the show is that everyone outside the two rivers is playing the game of houses.

Everyone? Uh, no.

 

9 minutes ago, dog421 said:

I had to watch  a green explaining to a red that a red should be the one to explain that the law applies to sisters as well, which is a very unnatural conversation

Why? Liandrin was urging the group to ignore Tower law. Why is it unnatural for another sister to say, in effect, "that's not the way it's done. I shouldn't have to tell you that"?

 

10 minutes ago, dog421 said:

Why are the aes sedai and warders explaining to each other how things work with aes sedai and warders.

When does this happen?

 

10 minutes ago, dog421 said:

Why is Nyneave explaining to a warder that she doesn't trust, that the aes sedai she doesn't trust is a snake.

Because ... she's beginning to trust him? And saying you don't trust someone or commenting that someone is a snake isn't exactly revealing crucial information to the enemy.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, dog421 said:

Episode 25? This going to be an 8-episode season

Unless they start renumbering the episodes every season, there just might be some plot development in episodes 9+.

[dog421]

24 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 

mmm, I have just rewatched it...I cannot honestly catch this detail but, overall, is not important.

Few seconds earlier the D(an)arkfriend told Rand that it was impossible for him to open the door.

So, when this happens, it seems obvious that something supernatural has happened also for the non-reader.

This part would have been much better if they had already explained the part about them being Taveren.

[Harad the White]

13 minutes ago, dog421 said:

Why are the aes sedai and warders explaining to each other how things work with aes sedai and warders.

It's called "exposition."

[Sabio]

10 minutes ago, dog421 said:

I remember him swinging the axe behind him to get a strike at a trolloc in front of him. I remember him not knowing that she was there and doing it accidentally. That's not the same thing as doing it deliberately. Also, I never saw him cover it up. He just didn't tell anyone that he did it, and everyone assumed. Covering something up is very different from not correcting someone who assumed something.

Maybe this should be a new topic Is Perin a criminal that killed his wife and covered it up?  I mean I once let my sister take the fall when I accidently let the cat get outside.  She took the blame but I still did the deed.  I was still guilty.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sabio

[Chadouken]

Loved Ep4! I think this show is really starting to find its own way. The departures from the book keeps it fresh for those of us familiar with the story while keeping it faithful to the spirit of the characters.  I'm digging it. 

 

Also, how crazy was it that the Forsaken were talking to Logain through the taint?? 

[dog421]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Everyone? Uh, no.

 

Why? Liandrin was urging the group to ignore Tower law. Why is it unnatural for another sister to say, in effect, "that's not the way it's done. I shouldn't have to tell you that"?

 

When does this happen?

 

Because ... she's beginning to trust him? And saying you don't trust someone or commenting that someone is a snake isn't exactly revealing crucial information to the enemy.

I'm not saying it is revealing crucial information. I am just saying it is an unnatural way to behave. If I don't trust the FBI, and I don't let one FBI agent know that I don't trust him while taliking to him, then as soon as he leaves, I tell another FBI agent, that I also don't trust, that I don't trust the first one, it is very unnatural. For whose benefit was she saying that? To warn Lan not to trust Liandrin? She doesn't trust either. They have not begun to show her softening up to him. When he told her to watch over Moraine she implied that she might be willing to kill her. Now she's watching his back? It doesn't make sense. This is a 180 from how she was acting, apparently earlier the same day. If I were her, I wouldn't be saying things like that to people with magic powers, that I was surrounded by, when I think they are already up to no good. Her whole mission is to get the kids away from them, because she believes they are up to no good.

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I know this is a popular perception - that the 'who is the Dragon' stuff is just completely unnecessary. Okay. Let's stipulate that it isn't necessary.

 

But let's approach it from the perspective of why they might have made this choice:

1. The supporting cast plays a minimal role in EotW. A bigger role for each of the EF5 is clearly necessary to get actor buy in.How many actors would sign on to a long-term project after being told, "your character is super important but we really won't do much with him/her until toward the end of Season 2?"
2. You have to include other characters to get emotional buy in from the audience. Why should we care about the rest of the EF5 if Rand is immediately disclosed as the 'chosen one?' This requires the creation of new material to get to know characters who are mostly flat and one dimensional in EotW.
3. When she arrives in Emond's Field, Moiraine does not know who the DR is. As readers, we find out almost immediately, but it's not confirmed that Moiraine knows until the events at the Eye.
4. If Moiraine doesn't know until then, what's wrong with reorganizing the first book to fit from Moiraine's perspective? It gives new viewers a little bit of mystery and something to talk/theorize about.
5. Ultimately, it changes nothing.

 

I agree with Points 1-4. But you could still have played up the "mystery" among Mat, Perrin, and Rand - and given meaningful screen time to the ladies - without changing the Lore. And those changes to the Lore are not "nothing." You're trying to justify this, but Rafe has admitted why he did it, and it wasn't for the reasons you've given.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Sabio said:

I was still guilty.

What is he guilty of? Friendly fire? Involuntary womanslaughter? Wait until after the Last Battle to bring him before the magistrate.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Chadouken said:

Also, how crazy was it that the Forsaken were talking to Logain through the taint?? 

What were once vices, are now habits. It's crazy and it's transcendent!

[Sabio]

Poor Perin is going to spend most of his life after the Last Battle answering for all the killings he did before the last battle.

[dog421]

4 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

It's called "exposition."

Exposition doesn't make sense in this context, in this way. It only makes sense when it is for the benefit of a character that is new to the situation. Like in the first Jurassic Park when they watch the video designed for the tourists to explain why there is a park full of dinosaurs. It doesn't make sense when two people who work at Jurassic Park and have been working there for some time, are explaining to each other why there is a park full of dinosaurs. Also, it deviates so far from the best theme of the books, when everyone is telling everyone else where they stand on issues like this. In the books everyone plays politics, and for things like this, you make your intentions know to people you believe will side with you, because you when you let your plans be known to people who are opposed to them, they start working against you.

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

 

Can we start this from a different direction? 

 

I think it is certainly true that RJ changed the reincarnation by gender bc of modern understanding of gender. I'm really not sure about that response in the recent AMA, bc I don't see why he would change that - he would surely get the response he wanted more by loudly proclaiming it. 

 

We don't yet know abt strength in the Power, linking, etc. We do know from the added shorts that they've kept surrendering to Saidar and battling Saidin, which surprised me tbh. 

 

Be that as it may, is it coincidence that it is the people most offended by thus who are declaiming that the CGI is terrible, that the acting is wooden, that every change is unnecessary and/or agenda-driven? 

 

It is the same people who are upset by the Dragon change who are convinced that there is a girl power vibe throughout, that Ila speaking more than Raen is evidence of this (although she did in the book - only the first greeting with the late lamented Elyas was him), etc etc

 

Is there not a little bit of confirmation bias going on? 

 

I would add that with the noble exception of DojoToad, I haven't noticed any of the naysayers mentioning anything positive abt the show, which I think is bc they haven't seen anything positive in it. 

 

The people who have changed their minds pre/post launch (Wolfbrother from negative to positive, at least one other the opposite, not sure if any others), are few and far between

 

I can't speak for others, but I don't think any of what you said applies to me. I hate tribalism. I can acknowledge the good and bad, and have done so about this show, repeatedly.

[Harad the White]

Just now, dog421 said:

Exposition doesn't make sense in this context, in this way

Screen-writing 101. Exposition is a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Poor Perin is going to spend most of his life after the Last Battle answering for all the killings he did before the last battle.

Not to mention all the rest of the combatants. Remember after WWII when all the GIs were tried for killing Nazis?

[themann1086]

Oh cool are we having the same discussion we always do again? Great, it was super productive the past ten thousand times.

 

Anyway got to rewatch the episode, had a couple additional observations:

• I really liked Egwene's comment to Aram, about how maybe they already found the song.
• I liked the tweaked Red Ajah purpose as Liandrin explained it: not merely the hunters of male channelers, but a sort of law enforcement for all who can use the One Power (this is why Liandrin gets called out when she pushes for Logain to be gentled, by the way)
• Had a thought about past lives/voices of madness: one of Tam's comments in E1 is that (paraphrasing) we don't remember our past lives, implying that maybe it's a good thing. That does tie in with the comments from Semirhage in the books about how being able to talk to your past incarnations is super unhealthy for a person, mentally. I'm wondering if they're expanding that to be a common symptom of madness for male channelers, and if so, does that mean the named woman is a past Logain? Maybe even a past False Dragon?

That's all for now. 3 days until Blood Calls Blood!

[KakitaOCU]

5 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

I agree with Points 1-4. But you could still have played up the "mystery" among Mat, Perrin, and Rand - and given meaningful screen time to the ladies - without changing the Lore. And those changes to the Lore are not "nothing." You're trying to justify this, but Rafe has admitted why he did it, and it wasn't for the reasons you've given.

No, ultimately it changes nothing.  

There are literally TWO things that come up that actually tie to the "Does the soul have a gender" issue.

#1: 

Spoiler

Could someone other than a man be the Dragon.  Well, in theory maybe, but it DOES NOT MATTER because Rand is the Dragon, Rand was always going to be the Dragon and there was never a chance of it being Egwene or Nynaeve anymore than if they had stuck to the three there was a chance it would suddenly be Mat or Perrin.

#2:
 

Spoiler

Aran'gar.  Because it was kind of a weird thing that Balthamael was stuck in a woman's body but still touched Saidin.  But you know what?  The DO is still responsible for that and can do weird things.  So the plotpoint doesn't need to be changed at all.

The funniest part is that I remember nothing IN the books that specifies gender of the soul stuff.  There's things we can read based on one incident and there's RJ's Word of God in the interviews.

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, dog421 said:

it is very unnatural.

It doesn't seem unnatural at all to make an off-hand comment about someone who bothers you. 

[dog421]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

Screen-writing 101. Exposition is a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

I agree that exposition has to happen, it is just that it happened very lazily. In the books, Nynaeve decided to play nice with Moraine to learn how to control the one power so she could use it as a weapon against her, and she also wanted to try to get Moraine to lower her guard around her. Of course Moraine saw right throught this, but it would have made the show a little stronger if these things were being explained to a newcomer to the world and we learned through their eyes with them, like how it was in Harry Potter. For at least the first four movies, he was still learning new things like floo powder, and quills that write in your flesh when you use them on paper without ink, etc. Exposition is necessary, but there is a right and a wrong way to do things.

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

those changes to the Lore are not "nothing."

The change in lore will have little to no bearing on the story. I have stated elsewhere that I don't care for it and found it unnecessary. But I understand the various reasons for it (which, I believe, include the four things I mentioned).

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, themann1086 said:

I'm wondering if they're expanding that to be a common symptom of madness for male channelers, and if so, does that mean the named woman is a past Logain? Maybe even a past False Dragon?

Ann Elk's theory is that the named woman is Lanfear, before escaping Shawshank. Her partner is Ishamael.

[Beidomon]

29 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Some Notes...

 

Sarah Nakamura (the book expert for the show) said she thought Logain was biding his time under the shield waiting for the wards to be broken to make a real attempt to get out.

And it should be noted...

 

She has been getting death threats. 

We have to cool off the rhetoric somehow.

 

Ugh. It... annoys me, to say the least, to be hectored about having a robust debate because some crank somewhere send a death threat. There is absolutely nothing going on in this thread that can be blamed for crazy.

[dog421]

12 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Maybe this should be a new topic Is Perin a criminal that killed his wife and covered it up?  I mean I once let my sister take the fall when I accidently let the cat get outside.  She took the blame but I still did the deed.  I was still guilty.

I feel like there is deeper meaning there. We say that he was going through the guilt of it, and we see others trying to tell him not to blame himself. I feel like him covering it up isn't what really happened. In the books, it was white cloaks, but I can't remember if Egwene say that happen or not. He never lied about it, but he felt the weight and the guilt of it. Between that and something with the wolves coming over the horizon, he really started to separate himself from everyone else.

[dog421]

19 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Unless they start renumbering the episodes every season, there just might be some plot development in episodes 9+.

I don't quite follow. It seems like you are saying you don't see any plot development coming any time in this season.

[Harad the White]

Just now, dog421 said:

I don't quite follow. It seems like you are saying you don't see any plot development coming any time in this season.

When you assume...