About that Entrance...

[Elder_Haman]

I think the biggest issue people have with the Winespring Inn clip is with Lan and Moiraine's entrance. After Lan comes inside, he stands a beat or two too long - posing with his hood up. People have suggested that this feels cheesy and unnatural and after watching it a few (hundred?) more times, I get the criticism.

 

(I'll note that, for me, it's not a "deal breaker" or something that completely turns me off or makes me think the whole production team is trash)

 

There's also been some speculation (and even analysis of the metadata) that suggests we aren't seeing the same exact scene we will see in the show. I think that's a good bet. So, what if there is meant to be some sort of visual effects to go on top of that long pause? Here's a theory:

 

It cannot possibly be a coincidence that Lan looks so much like the Fade when he enters with his hood up. This leads me to believe that we will definitely get a version of Tam and Rand on the quarry road and Rand's first sighting of the Fade. I would guess that some sort of visual effect will accompany Rand's sighting the Fade. 

 

Would that change anyone's impression?

 

In the Winespring Inn clip, Rand and Perrin are the focus of the scene just prior to the door opening:  They are talking about Egwene's ceremony. Then, just before the door open, Perrin's eyes go to the door as if he anticipates Lan's entrance. After reaction shots, the camera is back on Rand and Perrin before cutting back to Lan standing "posed" with his hood up.

 

What if a similar visual effect to the one that accompanied the Fade on the quarry road happens here? And the cut back to Rand, he "snaps out of it". If you add a bit of an effect, the entrance would seem more natural - the "too long" feel being explained by the visuals.

 

But, Elder Haman, Lan isn't a Fade! He wouldn't cause the same effect.

 

True! But we're with Rand not the Fade. Most people will probably see it as PTSD. In reality, it's saidin and ta'veren  beginning to manifest...

 

[TheMountain]

I think that no matter what the explanation is, it comes off cheesy anyway. I'm not even sure that being a bad edit would redeem it.

[Elder_Haman]

I'm not saying it's a bad edit. I'm saying could potentially be a clip that is missing a key visual effect (and maybe a frame or two).

[TheMountain]

I mean a bad edit in terms of cutting out the things that gave Lan's entrance context in general. I'm trying to imagine an accompanying visual effect as you describe, and while I can kind of see what you're getting at, I still think it would come across as cheesy. I went and watched the clip again, and more than just the dramatic pause, his pose is awkward as well.

 

I think enough people have been talking about the scene being cheesy at this point that it's fair to say that this was a bit of a misstep visually and tonally, regardless of all sorts of possible explanations. It drew attention... and generally not in a positive way. For me it's such a bad scene that it colors the rest of the clip.

Edited October 13, 2021 by TheMountain

[CaddySedai]

So I also kinda liked the reveal. I can see the argument about being cheesy but honestly thats the type of reveal I grew up with. Westerns, Sci-fis, Fantasy… they always pause a tick. I have many fond memories of a western, low shot with just the boots and the bottom of a saloon door. The character enters, the shot holds till the doors stop swinging…then hard cut to the audiences reaction before cutting back to the face reveal. Heck sometimes they even had their head turned down to be obscured by the brim of their hat. Its a very very old cinematic element…or trope if you will.

 

Certainly I think it should be buttoned up a bit. Maybe skip the wide shot or cut that part into a third. The more dramatic edit would be simply to skip right to the removal of the hood. And if we must have the wide shot - drop it in after the boots and before he is confronted.

[DojoToad]

The entrance of both Lan and Moiraine worked fine for me - just the paused pose by Lan did not.  I don't think too deeply about the set-up, context, or what if's - it is all speculation anyway.  I enjoyed the entire clip otherwise, and that is good enough for me.  2 seconds bad and 2 minutes good - I'll take that all day long...

Edited October 13, 2021 by DojoToad
spelling

[Borderlander]

For me, it's not even so much the long pause, it's the fact that Lan's hood is so gosh-darn low I don't think he could see out! It reminds of kids who come in from playing in the snow and their hats and scarves and puffy jacket are done up so tight they can't even move, so they just stand there inside the door waiting for an adult to unwrap them. Or having your socks hanging an inch off your feet. For a warder to stand there with his hood halfway over his face... I mean, is he using his Spidey-sense to survey the room? If his hood was even 1 inch higher, I would have zero problem with his combative stance or his pause (or the fact Moiraine is waiting outside in the rain for Lan to introduce her...?) 

 

That said, this one is a pretty minor nitpick for me. I just hope they don't have too many forehead-smackers  (i.e. flying ax-man; frozen arrows.) But I think that is the sort of clumsiness that gets hammered out as more episodes and seasons are shot and the showrunner and his gang of mercenary directors develop a better sense for the visual language of their particular show. So maybe we get a meme or two out of it, but it's not a big deal.

 

11 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

What if a similar visual effect to the one that accompanied the Fade on the quarry road happens here? And the cut back to Rand, he "snaps out of it". If you add a bit of an effect, the entrance would seem more natural - the "too long" feel being explained by the visuals.

 

Good idea! Of course, if they change the scene, it would change my opinion—how could it not? I could get on board with some kind of Nazgul-on-the-road camera trickery, or a quick flashback/overlay to the Quarry Road, or something else if done subtly and well. It would pay off, too, to remind the viewers that Rand remains unsettled by the dark rider he saw; the audience will breathe easy for a few minutes after this hooded stranger is revealed to be Lan... but Rand's fears will be fully realized during the attack later that night. 

 

And I know there is some metadata that suggests we did not see the clip in its entirety, but I would be pretty surprised if the missing portion contained CGI (or similar cinematic mischief.) I can see them having possibly cutting out a couple of reaction shots for the Comic Con footage—maybe a wary look from Tam, or a fading grin from Mat, or maybe even some bug-eyes from Rand as he recalls the dark rider—but it seems unlikely to me that they would show us a seemingly near-finished shot a month before release, and then give us the same shot + CGI a month later. 

 

[TheDreadReader]

14 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

In the Winespring Inn clip, Rand and Perrin are the focus of the scene just prior to the door opening:  They are talking about Egwene's ceremony. Then, just before the door open, Perrin's eyes go to the door as if he anticipates Lan's entrance. After reaction shots, the camera is back on Rand and Perrin before cutting back to Lan standing "posed" with his hood up.

 

What if a similar visual effect to the one that accompanied the Fade on the quarry road happens here? And the cut back to Rand, he "snaps out of it". If you add a bit of an effect, the entrance would seem more natural - the "too long" feel being explained by the visuals.

 

But, Elder Haman, Lan isn't a Fade! He wouldn't cause the same effect.

 

True! But we're with Rand not the Fade. Most people will probably see it as PTSD. In reality, it's saidin and ta'veren  beginning to manifest...

 

 

I think that you may be on the right track here.  It could also be an audio cue to set the tone.  The Rand/Perrin conversation flows pretty naturally but that does not mean that we have the whole thing.

 

If you track Rand's movements through the scene it does look like something draws his attention outside.  That could just be the storm or it could be that he is a little on-edge having seen the Fade on the Quarry Road.  In the books, they talk about other people seeing the black rider as well.  

 

We also know that they tricked us a little bit with the teaser.  Showing Lan's boots and the Moiraine's entrance.  I don't think they are "above" trying to do that to us again. 

 

 

[AdamA]

It's cheesy as hell. Whether or not it works in context entirely depends on the overall aesthetic of the show. Someone else mentioned westerns doing this kind of thing all the time, and it works fine there. Think of Cobb Vance entering the saloon in Boba Fett's armor in the last season of The Mandalorian for a recent example. It works fine in a scene like that. The entire genre is meant to be stylized, not realistic. Is fantasy like that or are we supposed to be seeing people exactly as they would look and behave if mythical creatures actually existed and magic was real? That's a hard question to answer, but fantasy has traditionally acted like myth with characters and events intentionally larger than life, not meant to be realistic. I get the feeling people are gonna be rough on this because they're coming off of Game of Thrones trying to do a 180 on the whole genre and make grittier, more grounded, more realistic fantasy that isn't seen solely as the province of children and nerds. I never got the impression reading Wheel of Time that it was trying to do that. There are plenty of convenient and unrealistic things happening just explained away as fate. In a realistic Wheel of Time, Thom Merrilin would actually be dead when he "sacrifices" himself, Rand would lose his mind and become the ultimate endgame villain, many of the Trollocs would have ridiculous shin splints and arthritis and not be able to fight because bipedalism on hooves makes no sense.

 

That doesn't mean stances and poses and what not also need to be unrealistic, but I think you're bound to be disappointed if you're expecting that. This is much more like The Mandalorian than The Wire. The good guys win. People you like make last minute improbable escapes. It's a hero's journey, not a historical drama.

[TheDreadReader]

8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

 

 

but there are posters where we see what look like threads, and they have different colors. this give me hope that we will get to see the power in its full glory from the eyes of channelers, in a few scenes at least.

 

On that note the alt text that they tweeted about today's poster includes this:

 

Around their feet are strands of weaves. In the background behind them are burning buildings. Text at the top reads, "Amazon Original Series". The show logo reading "The Wheel of Time" stretches across the center of the image.

 

Not sure if you can consider the tweeter of chaos a canonical source...

 

 

[king of nowhere]

I consider the poster a canonical source. And i don't see what else those weaves could be

[Borderlander]

1 hour ago, AdamA said:

many of the Trollocs would have ridiculous shin splints and arthritis and not be able to fight because bipedalism on hooves makes no sense.

 

That is hilarious.

 

1 hour ago, AdamA said:

It's a hero's journey, not a historical drama.

 

And that is true. Well put.

[TheMountain]

 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

Hey. Why are you locking my topic when you're starting a topic on the same thing?? 

 

So @Borderlander ... I will try to be optimistic because as people have said, it's just a short clip that doesn't have context. 

 

Um. What I liked was: 

Um. 

Hmmm....

 

Well, I really really liked the trailer. 

But here's my list of grievances (don't suppress my honesty @Elder haman) 

 

1) the whole "feel" was off. It felt cheesy and overdramatic and slow [maybe frame rate was off or something]

 

2) Lan's not a cowboy. He's a Warder. He's sneaky, bad ass, and over-protective. This is way out of character for dramas sake. 

 

3) The WineSpring Inn does look good. But it isn't the WineSpring Inn (and I don't understand the logic in getting those things book-wrong).

 

4) It's not hard to use camera angles or ...whatever ... To make Rand the tallest. Rand's height - is essential to the story. 

Spoiler

Because he is Aiel, he is head and shoulders taller than the other Emond's Fielders

 

5) Moiraine would not flash her huge ring to intimidate - when Moiraine and Lan actually show up; they are trying to be somewhat incognito until they save everybody's bacon. 

 

But... 

Here's a little optimism... 

 

The costumes do look good. 

And the set looks real. 

And the EF characters have the right ethos: Nyn stepping up and holding her knife. Rand being a mopey, Egwene obsessed, man-child at first. Perrin being a thoughtful friend. Matt talking to some random lady. 

 

Maybe it's just that it's an out of context clip. 

My hope has returned. 

 

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Why are you locking my topic when you're starting a topic on the same thing??

Mine had already been up for a few hours is all and we were starting to have several conversations about the same subjects. No disrespect intended.

 

10 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

(don't suppress my honesty @Elder haman) 

I wouldn't! I hope you don't mistake my love for spirited discussion with a desire to mute criticism. I just like to push back sometimes and ask people to defend their opinions rather than just call names. You certainly never name call or troll.

 

Keep opining!!

Edited October 14, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

37 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I wouldn't! I hope you don't mistake my love for spirited discussion with a desire to mute criticism. I just like to push back sometimes and ask people to defend their opinions rather than just call names. You certainly never name call or troll.

 

Oh. My bad. I thought you stopped my topic because it was negative... And I only started it because I didn't see a topic on it (but I guess you had this one here!) 

 

I recant.

 

Continue. 

 

My optimism is rebounding. Especially since I've heard that this clip is perhaps edited in order to be more dramatic. That is the main "feel" that was off. Over the top dramatic.

 

And. I like the posters. I'm going to get one. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Rand's height - is essential to the story.

Height AND hair/skin complexity. Josha is a tiny bit taller than Marcus. I think he stands out from the rest the way he should.

[Rand520]

I thought the clip was great. Yeah the entrance was on the cheesy side but still enjoyed it. I also think that guy playing me is going to crush it.

[DaddyFinn]

15 minutes ago, Rand520 said:

I also think that guy playing me is going to crush it.

Absolutely! He has the innocent look but he can also be very serious. His voice in the NY comic con panel.. so deep and strong. Suitable for a king. I'm in love with all of the actors. ?

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

I agree ... despite many months of people complaining about casting on DM ... I really think they're going to do a great job. 

 

The little things in the clip even that they get right: 

 

Rand moping over Egwene.

Nyn gripping her knife.

Moiraine ignoring Nyn.

 

But they got Lan's entrance wrong. Lan is Warder supreme... And the cowboy saloon entrance isn't Warder-like at all. 

 

Warder's need to embody over the top protectiveness ... Even if that's not "girl power-y" Core to basically all the men in the story is that old fashion notion that men should protect women.

 

And the women being like, "Pah, how silly men are thinking we need protecting... We're tougher and smarter than they are." 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[SinisterDeath]

11 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

4) It's not hard to use camera angles or ...whatever ... To make Rand the tallest. Rand's height - is essential to the story. 

  Hide contents

Because he is Aiel, he is head and shoulders taller than the other Emond's Fielders

Well Actually...
Perrin is canonically 6'-1", and Rand is 6'-6". Rand's only a hand taller than Perrin, but yes, otherwise you're correct.

My guess is Rand will appear taller than most of the folks, but Perrin is also a big-lad, so they didn't want to bother trying to make Rand a hand taller than Perrin in every shot.

[Rose]

23 hours ago, Borderlander said:

For me, it's not even so much the long pause, it's the fact that Lan's hood is so gosh-darn low I don't think he could see out! It reminds of kids who come in from playing in the snow and their hats and scarves and puffy jacket are done up so tight they can't even move, so they just stand there inside the door waiting for an adult to unwrap them.

 

This visual is now imprinted in my mind, thanks. I will never be able to watch that clip without imagining Lan as a toddler flailing in a snowsuit ?

[DojoToad]

28 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Well Actually...
Perrin is canonically 6'-1", and Rand is 6'-6". Rand's only a hand taller than Perrin, but yes, otherwise you're correct.

My guess is Rand will appear taller than most of the folks, but Perrin is also a big-lad, so they didn't want to bother trying to make Rand a hand taller than Perrin in every shot.

Good to know.  I had always assumed a head taller, but I never got into the weeds regarding canon.

[DojoToad]

17 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

This visual is now imprinted in my mind, thanks. I will never be able to watch that clip without imagining Lan as a toddler flailing in a snowsuit ?

Can't put my arms down...